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Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

On the other hand, making them stronger somehow - a boost to cover somehow, or boost to damage output, is rather unfluffy.

Personally I'd like to see basic infantry drop to 3 points a model, but a modest increase in special weapon costs. Also something to make normal Commissar viable again, an improved Look Out Sir, or something.

Also possibly platoon-wide doctrines, although I don't want them to dominate the thread (dakka likes doctrines )

I would buy tanks for them. That seems like a good fix.

Honestly though, if you want to buff footguard, you have to remove their ability to buy vehicles.

Foot guard got a nerf that is certain, but currently there is a raging debate going on in 40k tactics on how to use them effectively. Check posts by Alairos and Mr Mustaffa (I don't know if that's correct.) The answer isn't really to change core game mechanics, it has to come with a change in how you run foot guard. Perhaps you'll have to bring some vehicles and make it more of a hybrid list, maybe you need so many conscripts that you can't kill them all.

Think creatively. The road ahead is tough, but a successful result will be all the more satisfying.

chrisrawr wrote:I would buy tanks for them. That seems like a good fix.

Honestly though, if you want to buff footguard, you have to remove their ability to buy vehicles.

...what? Foot guard as they are only really work with the inclusion of vehicles, which is to say the men die while the tanks do all the work. That may be realistic but it's not very fun.

gpfunk wrote:Foot guard got a nerf that is certain, but currently there is a raging debate going on in 40k tactics on how to use them effectively. Check posts by Alairos and Mr Mustaffa (I don't know if that's correct.) The answer isn't really to change core game mechanics, it has to come with a change in how you run foot guard. Perhaps you'll have to bring some vehicles and make it more of a hybrid list, maybe you need so many conscripts that you can't kill them all.

Think creatively. The road ahead is tough, but a successful result will be all the more satisfying.

I've seen Alairos and Mr Mustaffa's posts. Alairos seems close to suicide (and outright delusional about the abilities of 10 man stormtrooper squads), while Mustaffa seems to run hybrids.

I'm actually fine with foot lists getting nerfed.

I prefer playing factions and armies that are the underdog, instead of overpowered, it makes winning that much sweeter.

That and I've always felt that the IG were sort of meant to be the 40k universe's punching bag.

Testify wrote:Alairos seems close to suicide

lol.

Anyways, the way that foot guard was designed to work was to be an attrition army, and 6th ed basically kaiboshed that. The problem with just reducing the cost of guardsmen is that guard armies have already hit the ceiling for the number of guys you can reasonably field in a game of 40k. Cram in more guys, and the end result may well be a weaker army rather than a stronger one.

To return to the attrition days, you have to make there be some way where they can advance up the field without caring about casualties. I'd hate to see them get power armor, as I agree that would be unfluffy, but there's got to be something. For example, DoW handled this by making reinforcements pop up in-squad. I don't know if that mechanic is appropriate for 40k, but it's an example of how it could be done. Another way might be something akin to a WWP. Like a troop transport that has a carrying capacity of 2,000 points of guardsmen that could plop them all down in the middle of the board.

Of course, you could always take guard in a new direction. Instead of being an attrition army, they could be something else instead. I don't know what that would be, though.

 Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Alairos seems close to suicide

lol.

Anyways, the way that foot guard was designed to work was to be an attrition army, and 6th ed basically kaiboshed that. The problem with just reducing the cost of guardsmen is that guard armies have already hit the ceiling for the number of guys you can reasonably field in a game of 40k. Cram in more guys, and the end result may well be a weaker army rather than a stronger one.

To return to the attrition days, you have to make there be some way where they can advance up the field without caring about casualties. I'd hate to see them get power armor, as I agree that would be unfluffy, but there's got to be something. For example, DoW handled this by making reinforcements pop up in-squad. I don't know if that mechanic is appropriate for 40k, but it's an example of how it could be done. Another way might be something akin to a WWP. Like a troop transport that has a carrying capacity of 2,000 points of guardsmen that could plop them all down in the middle of the board.

Of course, you could always take guard in a new direction. Instead of being an attrition army, they could be something else instead. I don't know what that would be, though.

Spawning units is actually a great idea.

Perhaps something like the gorgon transport that acts like a Tervigon and spits out goobers.

Maybe another idea is that you could merge squads mid game. If you have 8 guys left in one squad and 2 in another they can merge into a squad of 10.

At first I thought it was silly, but now I think about it...I dunno.

Some sort of Hold The Line! thing. An infantry squad can forgo movement in exchange for D3 new models, as long as it does not bring the number above 10.

Cheap medic upgrades for 5+ FNP?

Area of effect medical unit that gives FNP too?

Be able to merge all units of a platoon into a single squad.
Special and heavy weapons teams drop way to fast for their cost.
If you could merge them all, for 300 points you get 9 plasmaguns, and 21 meat shields. (2xPIS, 1 SWS, and Platoon Command).

6 Missile Launchers would be 265 points.

It's not a crazy amount of firepower for the points, but it does make the firepower a bit more survivable.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Be able to merge all units of a platoon into a single squad.
Special and heavy weapons teams drop way to fast for their cost.
If you could merge them all, for 300 points you get 9 plasmaguns, and 21 meat shields. (2xPIS, 1 SWS, and Platoon Command).

6 Missile Launchers would be 265 points.

It's not a crazy amount of firepower for the points, but it does make the firepower a bit more survivable.

Somewhat. But the fundamental problem would remain. T3, 5+ saves. I guess you'd get an extra few turns of shooting from your heavy weapons though.

The medic idea isn't that bad, actually. It would be somewhat akin to orks getting a 5+ cover save everywhere with a KFF. I'm imagining a 0-5 optional HQ choice like a priest, except instead of giving preferred enemy, he gives FNP.

In any case, you'd think something like SiTNW would be useful here (say, for all guardsmen), but because they have to deploy on your table edge, they don't help you advance.

Oh, how about this? guardsmen become 8 points a model, but everybody gets SiTNW, and everybody gets outflank. That way you'd get the "there are too many of them, AAAAH!" factor, while not necessarily overthrowing everything (guard squads are still pretty darn easy to kill).

 Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Alairos seems close to suicide

lol.

To return to the attrition days, you have to make there be some way where they can advance up the field without caring about casualties. I'd hate to see them get power armor, as I agree that would be unfluffy, but there's got to be something. For example, DoW handled this by making reinforcements pop up in-squad. I don't know if that mechanic is appropriate for 40k, but it's an example of how it could be done. Another way might be something akin to a WWP. Like a troop transport that has a carrying capacity of 2,000 points of guardsmen that could plop them all down in the middle of the board.

This made me think of the 'mass drop' in planetstrike, which could possibly work if translated into footguard armies- the troops are forced into reserve for 1st turn but then drop midfield on the second (a guaranteed 'safe drop' like the guidance system on a drop pod might be in order, but without the actual pod.

That said, I've been playing a static footguard behind an aegis for 6th ed and its working fine - massed autocannon fire.

Two words : Meat Grinder.

You know, that delightful rule from 4th ed that allows you to redeploy troop squads if they were wiped out.
That should answer your attrition problem. Now, the question is, how to make it so that they won't get wiped out?
Maybe this? :

Rally at my position! : You may deploy units brought back via the Meat Grinder Variant rule within 6" of an objective that you currently hold. If no such objective is available, then you may deploy within 6" of a command squad, that is not engaged in CC.

 Ailaros wrote:
The medic idea isn't that bad, actually. It would be somewhat akin to orks getting a 5+ cover save everywhere with a KFF. I'm imagining a 0-5 optional HQ choice like a priest, except instead of giving preferred enemy, he gives FNP.

In any case, you'd think something like SiTNW would be useful here (say, for all guardsmen), but because they have to deploy on your table edge, they don't help you advance.

Oh, how about this? guardsmen become 8 points a model, but everybody gets SiTNW, and everybody gets outflank. That way you'd get the "there are too many of them, AAAAH!" factor, while not necessarily overthrowing everything (guard squads are still pretty darn easy to kill).

Dunno.

Turn 1 - take casualties
Turn 2 - be almost wiped out
Turn 3 - come back on the board. Can't assualt and has a 24" range from the back of the board. Take casualties
Turn 4 - be wiped out
Turn 5 - Come on the board and grab whatever objectives you can.

I can see FNP being useful now it's only negated by S6+. Means they'll get it against heavy bolters, which would help. And they'd be a lot stickier in CC.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Be able to merge all units of a platoon into a single squad.

I love this idea. It works very well in the DKoK armies, so it would be like 10x better with normal IG.

Also:
- IC Medics: 25/30 points per model, 0-5 in one Elites selection. Options for all kinds of stuff like carapace armour.
- IC Commissars: 25/35 points per model, 0-5 in one Elites selection, lots of options for everything. Maybe even ATSKNF instead of Stubborn.
- Some better fortifications. Like a firebase (big area terrain with lots of gun emplacements and 4+ cover), a tunnel network (like the GLA tunnels in C&C Generals) and an option to take a large bunch of tank traps/razorwires/minefields.
- Platoon upgrades. Lots of them.
- Different platoon types woudl be also cool. Like the return of the Command Platoon, a Veteran Platoon and a Drop Platoon.
- And finally, the forever baby: fix the Vox Casters. Unlimited range for the orders and the removal of the LoS requirement would be a good start.

Maybe something that allows for guardsmen to pick up special weapons and equipment from their fallen comrades thus allowing weapon hiding

Hi all.
Just a couple of thoughts.

New unit option...
Pioneers ,
Used to clear minefields, and breech defences.ALSO construct tunnels /trenches .
Units may be held in reserve, and deploy through tunnels .Tunnel open up within D6" of a specific point, but units travelling through tunnels have to pass a difficult terrian test.

Commisars .New Ability.
ANY foot infantry unit that falls back ,MUST join a unit from the same army containing a Commisar on foot , if within 6" of the Commisars unit.
(They now count as part of the Comisars unit untill detroyed.)

Just some basic ideas...

I dunno, I always feel like the people who are really committed to playing footguard, but don't understand that a list that shallow should have weaknesses, are the part of the equation that needs fixing.

I'm not entirely sure it needs fixing either, I hear they've been doing some nutty things of late with a little allied help, and I for one, think that you should only expect so much from IG without a little help, vehicle, SC, ally or otherwise!

Maybe adding some inquisitorial or religio college stuff as allies with some coming books would help give it a stiffer step forward in a fluffy way.

Well, I am putting a fandex together for Catachans. It will be mostly foot troops with a couple of vehicles and maybe a flyer. Mostly it will be based around denying your opponent the ability to move about the board while grinding them down with overwhelming numbers and precision strikes. At this point there are no plans for troop transports or artillery. Sheer grit, surprise and lots of short-medium ranged firepower will have to carry the day for these guys.

Ground Pounders:
If your required troops are filled with full platoons (5 infantry squads each) then each squad may purchase up to 2 special and 2 heavy weapons.

Really, you only want to boost infantry in an army that is mostly infantry.

-Matt

 Ailaros wrote:

Testify wrote:Alairos seems close to suicide

lol.

Anyways, the way that foot guard was designed to work was to be an attrition army, and 6th ed basically kaiboshed that. The problem with just reducing the cost of guardsmen is that guard armies have already hit the ceiling for the number of guys you can reasonably field in a game of 40k. Cram in more guys, and the end result may well be a weaker army rather than a stronger one.

To return to the attrition days, you have to make there be some way where they can advance up the field without caring about casualties. I'd hate to see them get power armor, as I agree that would be unfluffy, but there's got to be something. For example, DoW handled this by making reinforcements pop up in-squad. I don't know if that mechanic is appropriate for 40k, but it's an example of how it could be done. Another way might be something akin to a WWP. Like a troop transport that has a carrying capacity of 2,000 points of guardsmen that could plop them all down in the middle of the board.

Of course, you could always take guard in a new direction. Instead of being an attrition army, they could be something else instead. I don't know what that would be, though.

IIRC in the deepstriking special game they made (not cities of death, one side had fortifications...) the IG could take a strategem or whatever called mass drop or something that would let them deepstrike their entire army on one reserve roll.

 Testify wrote:
Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

Foot guard are completely fine and don't need to be fixed.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

Foot guard are completely fine and don't need to be fixed.

As long as you mix it up with mech or take allies, it is! But I think we are talking about pure foot guard (without any AV units) without allies.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

Foot guard are completely fine and don't need to be fixed.

Lol. Care to elaborate?

Something like the Krieg quarter master? An HQ made out of 4 units, each of them giving FNP to a squad per turn, if said squad is within 2 inches.

 Testify wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

Foot guard are completely fine and don't need to be fixed.

Lol. Care to elaborate?

Pure foot IG/SW just won the NOVA Open. That's really all that needs to be said.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Given that we can no longer rely on armywide 4+ covers, how would you fix foot guard?

There seem to be two options - more men, or make each more useful. On the one hand, making PIS cheaper would be pretty sweet and fit into the mantra of "bring more men than your enemy has bullets"...but could lead to problems with the number of models on the board.

Foot guard are completely fine and don't need to be fixed.

Lol. Care to elaborate?

Pure foot IG/SW just won the NOVA Open. That's really all that needs to be said.

Because one guy played well against whichever opponents he was drawn against, that means they need no fixing? Its a big tournament and therefore a coup to win it, but winning it doesn't mean that the army which won is now the best there is and needs no fixing. The guy could have just been on his game like nothing else.

People seem to think all the wounds are still pretty good, especially since you can move selective parts to keep firing heavy weapons and snap shots aren't that much worse than your normal BS. You just need some stiffening via character and sharing USRs if you want your blob to move forward.

Still it feels like reaching to expect footguard to be able to do every sort of job fairly well. You really are cutting a lot of limbs off not choosing to make use of so many options. Maybe if they had the ability to set more terrain up on the field before hand. Otherwise it seems unlikely that guardsmen would move forward without pulverizing the enemy.

 Kingsley wrote:

Pure foot IG/SW just won the NOVA Open. That's really all that needs to be said.

No it's not. Tournies!=40k.