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I think many gamers have a warped perception of how valuable the WS stat is. There is very little variance in to hit chances in melee. Unless you are Kharn or facing a model with a very low WS facing one with a very high one, you will be hitting on 4s or 3s. Increased strength, #of attacks, and special rules or wargear that allow hits and/or wounds to be rerolled are much more important.

Here is the math.

WS4 S4 1A vs WS4 T4 = .25 wounds
WS5 S4 1A vs WS4 T4 = .33 wounds
WS4 S5 1A vs WS4 T4 = .33 wounds
WS4 S4 2A vs WS4 T4 = .5 wounds
WS4 S6 1A vs WS4 T4 = .42 wounds
WS4 S4 1A vs WS4 T4, reroll misses = .38 wounds
WS4 S4 1A vs WS4 T4, reroll wounds = .38 wounds



Rerolling Hits also has diminishing returns the greater your WS is.

WS3 reroll vs WS4 = .555 hits
WS4 reroll vs WS4 = .75 hits = 35% increase
WS5 reroll vs WS4 = .89 hits = 18.7% increase

Rerolling Wounds also has diminishing returns the higher your strength as you can deduce.

Note: Diminishing returns really only apply when fighting against MEQs or GEGs, you can still benefit from increased strength against MCs and monstrous creatures.

Summary: For those designing home brew rules.

A weapon skill > 5 is inferior to WS5 with rerolls to hit. Once you reach WS5 you will be able to hit all models on at least a 4+. Every increase in WS after that point only increases your chance to hit on a 3+ or 67% rate. WS5 with rerolls will hits everything at least on average 75% of the time against lower WS models 89% of the time. The main benefit of a higher WS is that decreases the chance your opponent will hit you. Naturally WS5+ rerolling will be superior to WS5 rerolling.

My proposed order of value

(S = T+2) > Rerolling Misses = Rerolling Failed Wounds > (S = T+1) = (WSX>WSY)

Attacks increase in value as your melee stats increase.

I think most people have figured this out from looking at the WS chart, or in game experience.

Sure, doesn't make or break your character. But its important to note it. If a character or strong melee unit has a low WS, you do keep that in mind before you charge (killa kans in 5th for example. WS2 means less hits with your powerful DCCW. But vehicles have no WS, so its just like any other walker! win!). Likewise, you factor in the opponents WS to see what you need to roll to hit and vice versa. But really, WS5+=good, WS3-4=average, WS1-2=you suck. That's pretty much it.
As far as actual CC damage being done, and WS not affecting that too much- well duh. Its very rare situations where it does affect it, say killa kans in this edition hitting vehicles on a 5+ because its WS2vsWS3 of a moving vehicle. So they are weaker now. The only reason this matters is S10 armor ignoring attacks actually do decent damage. Compare this to say firewarriors. going from WS2-3 would not be a huge jump, because they wouldn't become decent CC units from that WS. Whereas a killakan would REALLY benefit from that +1WS. The rare pieces of wargear that increase that WS are worth it in most cases though IMO. A Waaaugh! banner that makes your nobs WS5, So against MEQ's you hit on 3+ instead of 4+, is really worth it IMO. the combination of a good number of attacks with strong melee weapons means those extra PK/BC hits gained for 10p is worth it.

I don't think so. I posted this in a response to a poll in Proposed Rules about increasing the WS on Stormtroopers and Vets to 4 and people were freaking out about it. Its not that important. Going from 4 to 5 would be a bigger deal, which is why few units come with a baseline 5 and have to buy killable banners for it.

 Jihallah wrote:
I think most people have figured this out from looking at the WS chart, or in game experience.

This. Which is one of the reasons I really hate the WS chart, a unit with BS1 is literally blind babies with no arms trying to fire a sniper round on that one ant far away, on the other hand, an unit with WS1 has the same chance at hitting a WS10 as a space marine, a superhuman, and the WS10 struggles to hit that same marine(WS4) as they would a bloody amateur(WS1) in melee. Have you ever tried hitting a pro boxer? The only time you'd be able to land a hit is when he feels sorry for you and let you, and how often could you dodge his punches? As well as some superhuman in the far grim dark future?!*

And I guess this is really obvious to me as a DE player, or most DE players in fact, for in our infancy, we'd have to do the mathammer(or read others' mathammer) and learn which drugs work best for us in combat, and WS+1 drugs is about the 2nd worst drugs we could get, while reroll-to-wound drugs is the 2nd best.

*I assume everyone just fights pro boxers on a daily basis, they tend to hide in tall grass.

 Amaya wrote:
I don't think so. I posted this in a response to a poll in Proposed Rules about increasing the WS on Stormtroopers and Vets to 4 and people were freaking out about it.

Dude, this is a hobby full of nerds. A hobby involving superhuman warriors that travel through space and are such poster boys. Elevating regular humans to superhuman levels? Nerds don't take too kindly to that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baronyu wrote:
*I assume everyone just fights pro boxers on a daily basis, they tend to hide in tall grass.

I keep getting them on the other end of my fishing line, its le annoying :(

Some SoB units are WS4. IIRC some NCM/IA IG units are WS4/I4 as well.

Traditionally Imperial forces have all had access to WS4/I4 in some models with S4/T4 limited to Space Marines.

I don't think I'm coming across quite right bro!

I agree wholeheartedly with you! I think the people who freak out about it are fluff nazi nerds who care too much about the fluff. way too much. I enjoy the backstory of this game immensely, but I don't feel like its being soiled like a teenager gets soiled by their step father late at night because someone suggested stormtroopers should be WS4

No, I know what you mean. I just wanted to show why and how it's such a minor change.

Giving them a priest so they get rerolls on the charge would be more effective than WS4.

And the funny thing is if you gave them a special rule that gave them rerolls, I bet less people would bitch

It's an interesting question, and susceptible to some mathhammering. The trouble is that it's much more complicated than simply comparing the two tables.

Obviously, the to wound table has a lot more variation than the to hit table. 1 point typically changes your required dice roll by 1 point too (unless you're already at the 2+ or 6 point). Not so for to hit. There are several plateuas where increasing weaponskill is pointless, and the 'end points' are only ever 3+ and 5+.

But the real question of 'how much are they worth' depends on who you face,the population of other statistics in their armies. For example, if your weaponskill is 4, and almost all your opponents are weaponskill 4, the extra point is quite valuable. Given the prevalence of marines, this is pretty common. However, high strength weapons are also pretty common. If you're power fisting a model with T3, you don't care at all for the extra strength.

So there's mathhammering, like the OP has said. But there should also be some statistics about how common each value is. I think that in 40k, we're often shooting at something that has a toughness 2+ points lower than our strength. WS values are ususally pretty close.

And ALL of this interacts with points costs. A typical model isn't that much more expensive just for having an extra point of WS. WS contests are usually in similar ballparks (ie WS 5 vs 4). While strength is more often a few points higher than toughness. Lots of weapons give you an extra point of strength.

Why should they have the same WS as the veterans of a Space Marine chapter when they can already shoot as well as them?

There is nothing to indicate in the fluff that the Space Marines have superior hand to hand training than Stormtroopers or Sisters of Battle. As made evident in the OP, increased strength is >= weapon skill and increased attacks is also extremely important.

See, I disagree, WS is a huge part of a units combat potential, it affects not only their damage output but also their defensive ability. There are buffs that are fairly minor, 7 to 8 for example, but otherwise they can make an enormous difference. Look at the uproar that came about when the Carnifex went from WS4 to WS3 in the new dex.
In terms of damage output it barely changed, it still hits most foes on 4+ and now has more attacks. The problem lay in it's defences, every Ork and Space marine out there with a power fist and a grudge is hitting 16% more often. in the 6th ed world where they are being hit by krak grenades by said marines that reduced WS is a death blow.

Also lets not forget rending units, for them number of hits is often far more important if they are playing against foes with decent armour saves. Those 6's to wound are what win them the combat, not a few extra 3+ armour saves.
More hits is also a buffer against the vagaries of dice luck, 50 hits is more likely to generate the average 25 4+'s than 10 getting 5. The larger your pool the more likely things are to even out.

As to the realism, well there I agree with you, but anything approaching the BS chart would lead to either a huge buff to certain melee units or a need to redesign some high WS units. The Hive Tyrant for example is WS8, a marine has a fighting chance hitting on 4's while going last with his krak grenade. Odd's are the squad is gonna get smeared but they might be able to do something. Start adding modifiers for that kind of gap like the BS chart and the marine's are hitting on 5's, 6's or maybe even not at all. You'd have to balance it very carefully or Tyranids and Daemons would sweep the board with even 1-2 or them proving more than a match for other units if they actually made combat due to some of the sky high WS values they posess.

Here's another breakdown.

GEQ and MEQ are well known to most. EldQ = Eldar Equivalent WS4, S3. EliQ = Elite Equivalent WS5, S4 (Berserkers, Nobs, Paladins). TEST = WS3, S4, T4, a unit that ASFAIK does not exist or is very uncommon. These are the most common troop types.


Wounds Caused GEQ EldQ MEQ EliQ TEST AVG (excludes TEST)
Taken
GEQ .250 .334 .445 .445 .334 .369
EldQ .250 .250 .334 .445 .250 .320
MEQ .167 .167 .250 .334 .250 .230
EliQ .167 .167 .250 .334 .250 .230
TEST .167 .167 .334 .334 .250 .251
AVG .209 .230 .320 .390 .271

GEQ start at -.160. They take more wounds than they deal against one of the 4 main troop types.
EldQ are at -.090.
TEST are at +.020. A +1 increase in both S and T despite still having WS3 increased their offensive output and defense over the EldQ.
MEQ are at +.090
EliQ are at +.160

WS3, T4 took less wounds than WS4, S3. WS3, S4 caused more wounds than WS4, S3. S and T are more important than WS for evaluating CC capabilities.

The only thing that really matters is WS 3,4 and 5. Any changes in that band are pretty significant. In my army I have 2 WS9 models and it is no better then WS6 in 90% of the combats they are involved in. (Swarmlord and Deathleaper if you are wondering).

One of the things that they really need to fix is expanding the WS table. WS9 should be hitting WS3 and WS4 troops on a 2+ and only get hit on a 6. If not that then give something like a reroll. They do it with BS6 and above. Just let me reroll my misses and I would be happy. Or else drop the price of the really high WS guys as we are paying points fro something that doesn't really matter.

 Amaya wrote:
No, I know what you mean. I just wanted to show why and how it's such a minor change.

Giving them a priest so they get rerolls on the charge would be more effective than WS4.

increasing your weaponskill also increased your defensive capibilities.

so moving a lowly guardsmen from WS3 to WS4 means he will not cause any more damage to a superhuman space marine, it does mean he will take less damage back.

Overall sure, rerolling to hit is better than 1 pip of weapon skill. WS is a rather unimportant stat, you could make grots WS10 and the game wouldnt break. It wouldnt be realistic, but you could do it.

Increased toughness is more important for defense than increased weapon skill.

 Gloomfang wrote:
The only thing that really matters is WS 3,4 and 5. Any changes in that band are pretty significant. In my army I have 2 WS9 models and it is no better then WS6 in 90% of the combats they are involved in. (Swarmlord and Deathleaper if you are wondering).

One of the things that they really need to fix is expanding the WS table. WS9 should be hitting WS3 and WS4 troops on a 2+ and only get hit on a 6. If not that then give something like a reroll. They do it with BS6 and above. Just let me reroll my misses and I would be happy. Or else drop the price of the really high WS guys as we are paying points fro something that doesn't really matter.

I feel the same way, I run a Bloodthirster (WS10), and I've always been annoyed that it's just as difficult to hit a WS1 model as it is a WS9 model.

*Have you ever tried hitting a pro boxer? The only time you'd be able to land a hit is when he feels sorry for you and let you, and how often could you dodge his punches? As well as some superhuman in the far grim dark future?!*.

Couldn't agree more. I'm an amateur boxer who's spent seven years in the game and a comparable athlete with only six months experience is lucky to land a punch a round. Even if he makes contact I've begun to roll with the punch enough that any blow that lands will be significantly weaker, almost negligible. I've got to be off my game or caught with a real lucky shot for an inexperienced practitioner to hit me hard. If the skill disparity is high enough, I can take on guys fifty pounds heavier than me without a worry. Vice versa, I've sparred with guys a whole lot better than me, amateurs with 200+ fights to my 11 and dedicated professionals who don't drink or smoke who I outweigh by similarly lopsided margins, and they can deal with me just as easily, if not moreso, slipping my blows and landing damaging shots at will. And that's if they take it easy on me.

I've also been shooting enough to know that you can aim a pistol right at a soda can 25 feet away and unless you practice regularly, good luck hitting it. Put that same can fifty feet away and make it a moving target and you're gonna need a helluva lot more than luck.

BS1 is a crippling deficiency to your accuracy, and WS1 should be the same. The hand-eye coordination required is not dissimilar. Whenever I charge my WS5 nobz with a banner into a knot of Guardsmen there's a part of me that's irked at the silliness of the WS chart and it makes me wonder why I bother taking it. But if I charge a group of Marines and get those extra attacks to land, or a WS9 Swarmlord without the penalty of 5's to hit, I'm happy. The problem is there's no middle ground.

 Amaya wrote:
I don't think so. I posted this in a response to a poll in Proposed Rules about increasing the WS on Stormtroopers and Vets to 4 and people were freaking out about it. Its not that important. Going from 4 to 5 would be a bigger deal, which is why few units come with a baseline 5 and have to buy killable banners for it.

And why I said that you could make them WS10 and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

 Amaya wrote:
Increased toughness is more important for defense than increased weapon skill.

of course it is. T is one of the best stats in the game. You couldnt make grots T3 or guardsmen T4 and not horribly break the game.

Remember there are 2 sides to the WS issue, unlike other stats.


Moving from WS3 to WS4 isn't a big deal for the guy moving up, but it is a big deal for his opponents.

Suddenly, that 40 year old Stormtrooper is only getting hit on 4s instead of 3s by the hundred year old superhuman veteran angel of death thats been fighting enemies of the Imperium for twice as long as that Stormtrooper has been alive.


The pricing of WS takes into account other models WS and not just his own.

Chalk this up to the 10 stat variation system not properly showing the difference between statlines.

If you want this level of detail, play Dark Heresy where you can actually have a difference between a normal guardsmen and a stormtrooper compared to a Marine.

All I know is that when my guardsmen are hitting close combat killing machines on 4's in melee, something is wrong.

More importantly, when my guardsmen are WINNING combats with barebones PCS's, something is VERY wrong.

I've never really understood the WS chart, it always seemed kind of off.

Well, I've always thought Marines should be WS5, Str5, T5, and 2 wounds.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Remember there are 2 sides to the WS issue, unlike other stats.


Moving from WS3 to WS4 isn't a big deal for the guy moving up, but it is a big deal for his opponents.

Suddenly, that 40 year old Stormtrooper is only getting hit on 4s instead of 3s by the hundred year old superhuman veteran angel of death thats been fighting enemies of the Imperium for twice as long as that Stormtrooper has been alive.


The pricing of WS takes into account other models WS and not just his own.

Chalk this up to the 10 stat variation system not properly showing the difference between statlines.

If you want this level of detail, play Dark Heresy where you can actually have a difference between a normal guardsmen and a stormtrooper compared to a Marine.

Obviously training has diminishing returns.

Again, I do not think the WS chart is intended to be reflective of fluff necessarily, but instead a control of an individuals damage output and damage reduction.