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Hello, so are debate at the store was about the Death Ray

Can you fire the death ray in CC? and can you fire it at other flyers?

At our store we tend to say "yes" to both of them.

If you Skyfire it you can hit Flyers, but not ground units. Not sure of hand about cc.

You simply can not target units in CC, nothing says you can't hit them. Consequently however, every unit hit by a death ray is considered being "targeted" by the unit implied by the rule for shooting with the tesla destructor in the same phase. That said though, the shooting rules technically only allow for a scattered blast weapon to hit units in CC so I would say no per the standard rules.

The death Ray can shoot at models in CC and flyers at the same time. As it only states all models under the line are hit. Skyfire has no relevance to this shooting attack. Nor does cc. It merely automatically hits everything under the line. including flyers. Keep in mind the death ray functions outside the normal rules for shooting.

Red_lives, instead of arguing the "hits everything so you don't need Skyfire" I highly, HIGHLY recommend reading the Blood Lance v. Flyers thread.

Aye, what Happy said. Its a good read too. :3

Hence the reason I stated, that the Death Ray can affect Flyers if fired with Skyfire, but if it does it cannot affect "ground" units.

Rather than reading the bloodlance thread; I'm going to straight up take the stance that the Deathray can hit everything and doesn't interact with the 'hard-to-hit' or 'skyfire' rules in any meaningful way.

To support my contention I offer the following rules:

Skyfire:
"...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers..."
Hard-to-Hit:
"...shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule as described on page 42). Template, Blast and large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode..."
Snap Shots:
"...under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots... ...any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot..."

Deathray:
"nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range... ...a second point within 3d6" of the first... ...Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits...
Type: Heavy 1 "

You'll note from the above that the deathray has are a very particular set of abilities. Abilities that make it a nightmare for fliers and non-fliers alike:
1) It does not target (ie: resolve it's shots, or 'fire') at any specific model. It targets points on the battlefield.
2) It Auto-hits anything found under the drawn line. (and therefore does not use a models' ballistic skill)
3) It is not a blast, large blast, or template weapon.

 Neorealist wrote:
Rather than reading the bloodlance thread; I'm going to straight up take the stance that the Deathray can hit everything and doesn't interact with the 'hard-to-hit' or 'skyfire' rules in any meaningful way.

To support my contention I offer the following rules:

Skyfire:
"...fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures, and Skimmers..."

Hard-to-Hit:
"...shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule as described on page 42). Template, Blast and large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in Zoom mode..."

Snap Shots:
"...certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots... ...any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot..."

Deathray:
"nominate a point on the battlefield anywhere within the weapon's range... ...a second point within 3d6" of the first... ...Every unit (friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits...
Type: Heavy 1 "

You'll note from the above that the deathray has are a very particular set of abilities. Abilities that make it a nightmare for fliers and non-fliers alike:
1) It does not target (ie: resolve it's shots, or 'fire') at any specific model. It targets points on the battlefield.
2) It Auto-hits anything found under the drawn line. (and therefore does not use a models' ballistic skill)
3) It is not a blast, large blast, or template weapon.

The underlined is why you cannot resolve the Shot. Additionally, Swooping FMC have Hard to Hit, and when "firing" at non-vehicle units, the shot is not resolved until the Wound Pool is emptied.

I've made the relevent text bigger in the hopes that it is more obvious now, but i'll state it here to:

The deathray never fires at nor resolves it's shots vs anything with the Hard-to-hit rule, as it Targets (read: fires at or resolves it's shots vs) the GROUND. (not the unit(s) suffering the hits.)

So...the Death Ray targets the Ground?

Well, technically 'two points on the battlefield' but yes, essentially.

OK, I see your point now. I thought you were claiming you could resolve the shots against Zooming Flyers/Swooping FMCs. And decided not to bother reading a thread which deals with the same topic.

nah i've read the thread, just didn't want to reference it here.

Imho the critical difference is that the blood lance has been FAQ-ed to target the first model struck by it's line with all that implies, whereas the Deathray still targets arbitrary places on the battlefield. In order for the 'Hard-to-Hit' rule to have any effect, shots have to resolved against a model with the special rule itself.

And the only point of the FaQ was to clear up what unit the librarian could assault in the next phase. The Doom Scythe doesnt have to worry about that portion being a vehicle and all.

nowhere does it say the death ray targets the ground, it targets 2 points on the battlefield draws a line and everything under the line is hit. Plain as day.. It can still hit flyers because its not a blast or template weapon, as those are the only things excluded.

 Red_Lives wrote:
blast or template weapon, as those are the only things excluded.

As well as anything that does not rely on BS to hit (or Artillery) and does not have the Skyfire special rule.

Edit to add: Such as Blood Lance, Vibro Cannon, and Death Ray. Although the Death Ray can be fired with the Skyfire rule.

Blood lance still hits Flyers but its wording pending a FAQ

Red_Lives wrote:nowhere does it say the death ray targets the ground, it targets 2 points on the battlefield draws a line and everything under the line is hit. Plain as day.. It can still hit flyers because its not a blast or template weapon, as those are the only things excluded.

I'm not entirely sure why you disagree with me and then turn around and say the exact same thing i did?

Fragile wrote:Blood lance still hits Flyers but its wording pending a FAQ

Edit: Also there is a Bloodlance thread. Please feel free to discuss bloodlance-related trivia over there. This is a Deathray thread.

I'm just going to put this here -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/469677.page

I don't feel like saying all the same things again. Hah.

It might help if you summarize the point you are trying to make. I've read the other thread and in it you've made several posts...

The point I'm making is, to summarize, you cannot use the deathray to hit flyers and non-skimmer ground targets in the same shooting attack.

Ah, ok.

I disagreed with that earlier in this thread; and still hold with that stance. (primarily on the grounds that the models with 'hard-to-hit' are never actually the target of the death-ray, they just receive wounds or penetrating hits as applicable.)

And nothing in hard to hit or snap shot requires you to target anything for either to take effect.

Also, contrary to other abilities (such as JotWW and Blood Lance that imply or state the first target is the primary target) the death ray technically counts all units hit as "targets" for the secondary weapons on the flyer, so while you may not "target" a specific unit with it, you are still designating "targets".

Kevin949 wrote:And nothing in hard to hit or snap shot requires you to target anything for either to take effect.

Also, contrary to other abilities (such as JotWW and Blood Lance that imply or state the first target is the primary target) the death ray technically counts all units hit as "targets" for the secondary weapons on the flyer, so while you may not "target" a specific unit with it, you are still designating "targets".

I'm sorry but on these two points you are incorrect.

Point 1: In order for the 'Hard-to-Hit' rule to apply, the shots have to be resolved against a model with the special rule; with 'resolved against' being synonymous with 'fired at', 'shot at', or 'targetted'. As stated earlier, the death-ray only 'targets' two points on the battlefield and is only 'resolved against' those two locations. (which obviously do not have the 'hard-to-hit' rule)

Point 2: What definition of 'technically' are you using when you make that statement? as the rules-text for the deathray itself doesn't support your claim on what it targets. You are correct that the other weapon system (the Tesla Destructor) targets as normal and is required to target one of the models effected by the deathray though.

neorealist wrote:with 'resolved against' being synonymous with 'fired at', 'shot at', or 'targetted'.

Page 15 disagrees with you. "When the Wound pool is emptied, the shooting attack has been completely resolved."

Which means until the Wound pool is emptied, the Shot is not resolved and therefore must be fired as a Snap Shot to resolve against a Hard To Hit model, such as a Swooping FMC.

Happyjew wrote: Which means until the Wound pool is emptied, the Shot is not resolved and therefore must be fired as a Snap Shot to resolve against a Hard To Hit model, such as a Swooping FMC.

You are misinterpreting me i think: I'm not saying you cannot 'resolve' Deathray shots. Far from it; what i am saying is that they are 'resolved against' points on the battlefield, not the wounded models themselves. You are free to 'allocate wounds', 'remove casualties', and 'resolve the shot' for the deathray without the shot ever having been 'resolved against' a model with the 'hard-to-hit' special ability (which is the trigger for the latter ability).

 Neorealist wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:And nothing in hard to hit or snap shot requires you to target anything for either to take effect.

Also, contrary to other abilities (such as JotWW and Blood Lance that imply or state the first target is the primary target) the death ray technically counts all units hit as "targets" for the secondary weapons on the flyer, so while you may not "target" a specific unit with it, you are still designating "targets".

I'm sorry but on these two points you are incorrect.

Point 1: In order for the 'Hard-to-Hit' rule to apply, the shots have to be resolved against a model with the special rule; with 'resolved against' being synonymous with 'fired at', 'shot at', or 'targetted'. As stated earlier, the death-ray only 'targets' two points on the battlefield and is only 'resolved against' those two locations. (which obviously do not have the 'hard-to-hit' rule)

Point 2: What definition of 'technically' are you using when you make that statement? as the rules-text for the deathray itself doesn't support your claim on what it targets. You are correct that the other weapon system (the Tesla Destructor) targets as normal and is required to target one of the models effected by the deathray though.

Your use of the word "or" defeats your point. To think that "firing at", "shot at" and "hiting" are different things isn't correct. Also, the shooting sequence only denotes that a unit must be targeted, not that only the target unit counts for having shots being resolved against it. And you'll probably say that some weapons never choose a target, which while technically true in some aspect they still must "resolve shots" somehow, and just because you skip or automatically pass a certain step in the process does not invalidate the rest of the resolution of the shot. And before you bring up scatter weapons, those are above and beyond this debate as they operate quite differently from the weapons of topic.

What definition of technically? The definition in the codex and FAQ that state the tesla destructor can only fire at "any of the targets the death ray hit". The use of the word targets, as you all seem to love so much, denotes that EVERY unit hit by the death ray was "targeted".

Kevin949 wrote:To think that "firing at", "shot at" and "hiting" are different things isn't correct. Also, the shooting sequence only denotes that a unit must be targeted, not that only the target unit counts for having shots being resolved against it. And you'll probably say that some weapons never choose a target, which while technically true in some aspect they still must "resolve shots" somehow, and just because you skip or automatically pass a certain step in the process does not invalidate the rest of the resolution of the shot. And before you bring up scatter weapons, those are above and beyond this debate as they operate quite differently from the weapons of topic.

Actually i've been saying that 'firing at', 'shot at', 'resolved against', etc all mean the same thing. i apologise if i haven't been clear on that previously. The deathray 'resolves' it's shots just fine, they are just 'resolved against' arbitrary points on the battlefield, not the specific models caught in it's effect.

Kevin949 wrote: What definition of technically? The definition in the codex and FAQ that state the tesla destructor can only fire at "any of the targets the death ray hit". The use of the word targets, as you all seem to love so much, denotes that EVERY unit hit by the death ray was "targeted".

Err, no, it doesn't say that at all. Here is the relevant text: "...If the vehicle's other weaponry is fired in the same shooting phase, it must be fired at one of the units hit by the death ray." Note the absence of the word 'target' there.

 Neorealist wrote:
Actually i've been saying that 'firing at', 'shot at', 'resolved against', etc all mean the same thing. i apologise if i haven't been clear on that previously. The deathray 'resolves' it's shots just fine, they are just 'resolved against' arbitrary points on the battlefield, not the specific models caught in it's effect.

What you're missing is that to hit is only the first step to "resolve" the entire sequence. Each of these three parts makes up the full resolution of a shooting attack, to hit, to wound/armor penetration, wound allocation. When all 3 of those steps have been completed have you resolved the shooting attack. Your target isn't two points, you simply nominate two points, your target is a unit determined by where the tesla destructor shoots. So first up is the to hit portion, and since the weapon does not use a ballistic skill it cannot be a snap shot. Thus you cannot resolve the death ray shooting at a flyer without the skyfire rule. You claim that it's under the line and it's hit, but the other side has the stronger case because "resolving" the attack is not simply on the to hit portion, it is the entire process of determining the result of shooting at a vehicle. Thus you cannot continue on, as you have not resolved the "to hit" portion following the rules for Hard to Hit, since to resolve a shot without skyfire you have to make a snap shot and the death ray definitely cannot make a snap shot.