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 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
ARGH!! New FAQs are out and this STILL hasn't been addressed.

WTF GW!?!

It wasn't addressed because the rules already cover this. In an open-topped vehicle what are we allowed to draw LoS for? Shooting, and only shooting. The reason it is only shooting is the only way that LoS can be drawn is for the purposes of shooting from within. When there is something that tells us that Anrakyr can draw LoS from a transport, then MitM will be valid from within a CCB. Until anyone gives solid proof that you CAN do it with rules, you can't do it and use the excuse "the rules don't cover it." If the rules don't cover it, you can't do it.

True Line of Sight covers this easily. Can I draw LoS from my Lord embarked on his CCB, yes. Does the rule require LoS to be used, yes. Is it a shooting attack, no. Do I need permission to shoot from a firing point in order to do so, yes. But as MiM isn't a shooting attack these rules don't matter. Permission is given by the description of the ability from the codex. No rulebook permission is necessary, as you are specifically given rules on how to use this ability, and are not specifically disallowed to do so by the BrB.

Its allowed.

The issue is that the only time you're allowed to check LOS for passengers in a vehicle is for shooting. That is the only section in the book that regards LOS from within a vehicle. Sadly, it still appears that you can't use this ability even though it happens in the shooting phase and it causes a shooting attack. Blargh.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
True Line of Sight covers this easily. Can I draw LoS from my Lord embarked on his CCB, yes. Does the rule require LoS to be used, yes. Is it a shooting attack, no. Do I need permission to shoot from a firing point in order to do so, yes. But as MiM isn't a shooting attack these rules don't matter. Permission is given by the description of the ability from the codex. No rulebook permission is necessary, as you are specifically given rules on how to use this ability, and are not specifically disallowed to do so by the BrB.

Its allowed.

Show where MitM allows you to draw LoS even in a vehicle? It doesn't.

MitM doesn't allow you to check LoS, it says IF the vehicle is in LoS. How is Anrakyr able to draw LoS from inside a CCB? If you say fire point, we point out only for shooting. This is the only thing that would allow him to draw line of sight, but the only time he has permission to draw line of sight out of the vehicle is to shoot. Show a rule that tells us, Anrakyr may draw line of sight for MitM from inside the vehicle. It has to specifically be stated. MitM says "chose an enemy vehicle within 18" and line of sight." He can attempt to draw line of sight, because MitM implies he can draw LoS. However is MitM a shooting attack? No, it is not. If something is not a shooting attack, but uses Line of sight, it cannot be used out of a vehicle because you have no way you can draw line of sight.

You know, this would also apply to Zahndrekhs Counter Tactics...

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
True Line of Sight covers this easily. Can I draw LoS from my Lord embarked on his CCB, yes. Does the rule require LoS to be used, yes. Is it a shooting attack, no. Do I need permission to shoot from a firing point in order to do so, yes. But as MiM isn't a shooting attack these rules don't matter. Permission is given by the description of the ability from the codex. No rulebook permission is necessary, as you are specifically given rules on how to use this ability, and are not specifically disallowed to do so by the BrB.

Its allowed.

Show where MitM allows you to draw LoS even in a vehicle? It doesn't.

MitM doesn't allow you to check LoS, it says IF the vehicle is in LoS. How is Anrakyr able to draw LoS from inside a CCB? If you say fire point, we point out only for shooting. This is the only thing that would allow him to draw line of sight, but the only time he has permission to draw line of sight out of the vehicle is to shoot. Show a rule that tells us, Anrakyr may draw line of sight for MitM from inside the vehicle. It has to specifically be stated. MitM says "chose an enemy vehicle within 18" and line of sight." He can attempt to draw line of sight, because MitM implies he can draw LoS. However is MitM a shooting attack? No, it is not. If something is not a shooting attack, but uses Line of sight, it cannot be used out of a vehicle because you have no way you can draw line of sight.

Look at the model, can he see a vehcile. If answer yes, you have permission to use MiM. TLOS. The other rules are for units that are not capable of being physically embarked on or in the vehicle, and therefore require abstract rules to account for their use of such abilities. Anrakyr, does not require this as he is capable of being physically mounted on the chariot, and able to draw line of sight from the actual model, and not be off the board using abstract rules to represent his in game use.

NecronLord3 wrote:Well,considering this was totally permissible prior to the 5th edition FAQ, and now that FAQ entry is officially gone, we are now back to it's allowance.

No, it was not permissible prior to the 5th edition FAQ. The FAQ did not change any rules, it was just that no one thought to question if it was legal and assumed it was until the FAQ clarified that it wasn't.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
True Line of Sight covers this easily. Can I draw LoS from my Lord embarked on his CCB, yes. Does the rule require LoS to be used, yes. Is it a shooting attack, no. Do I need permission to shoot from a firing point in order to do so, yes. But as MiM isn't a shooting attack these rules don't matter. Permission is given by the description of the ability from the codex. No rulebook permission is necessary, as you are specifically given rules on how to use this ability, and are not specifically disallowed to do so by the BrB.

Its allowed.

Show where MitM allows you to draw LoS even in a vehicle? It doesn't.

MitM doesn't allow you to check LoS, it says IF the vehicle is in LoS. How is Anrakyr able to draw LoS from inside a CCB? If you say fire point, we point out only for shooting. This is the only thing that would allow him to draw line of sight, but the only time he has permission to draw line of sight out of the vehicle is to shoot. Show a rule that tells us, Anrakyr may draw line of sight for MitM from inside the vehicle. It has to specifically be stated. MitM says "chose an enemy vehicle within 18" and line of sight." He can attempt to draw line of sight, because MitM implies he can draw LoS. However is MitM a shooting attack? No, it is not. If something is not a shooting attack, but uses Line of sight, it cannot be used out of a vehicle because you have no way you can draw line of sight.

Exactly.

You are told, when embarking, that your model is removed from the table. You have no model you can draw LOS from, making your entire premise NL 100% flawed.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Look at the model, can he see a vehcile. If answer yes, you have permission to use MiM. TLOS. The other rules are for units that are not capable of being physically embarked on or in the vehicle, and therefore require abstract rules to account for their use of such abilities. Anrakyr, does not require this as he is capable of being physically mounted on the chariot, and able to draw line of sight from the actual model, and not be off the board using abstract rules to represent his in game use.

Point to a rule that says if you can put the model on a transport vehicle they are there. You'll be at that a very long time, as no such rule exists. As a matter of fact, the rules say quite the opposite to what you are saying. Take a look at page 78 under the embarking rules, as a matter of fact I'll save you time and post it, "When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside making a note that the unit is being transported. So how exactly can Anrakyr be embarked on top of the CCB when the rules specifically tell us he is removed from the table and placed aside?

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
ARGH!! New FAQs are out and this STILL hasn't been addressed.

WTF GW!?!

It wasn't addressed because the rules already cover this. In an open-topped vehicle what are we allowed to draw LoS for? Shooting, and only shooting. The reason it is only shooting is the only way that LoS can be drawn is for the purposes of shooting from within. When there is something that tells us that Anrakyr can draw LoS from a transport, then MitM will be valid from within a CCB. Until anyone gives solid proof that you CAN do it with rules, you can't do it and use the excuse "the rules don't cover it." If the rules don't cover it, you can't do it.

True Line of Sight covers this easily. Can I draw LoS from my Lord embarked on his CCB, yes. Does the rule require LoS to be used, yes. Is it a shooting attack, no. Do I need permission to shoot from a firing point in order to do so, yes. But as MiM isn't a shooting attack these rules don't matter. Permission is given by the description of the ability from the codex. No rulebook permission is necessary, as you are specifically given rules on how to use this ability, and are not specifically disallowed to do so by the BrB.

Its allowed.

You cannot draw LOS. Nothing in the LOS rules lets you.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Look at the model, can he see a vehcile. If answer yes, you have permission to use MiM. TLOS. The other rules are for units that are not capable of being physically embarked on or in the vehicle, and therefore require abstract rules to account for their use of such abilities. Anrakyr, does not require this as he is capable of being physically mounted on the chariot, and able to draw line of sight from the actual model, and not be off the board using abstract rules to represent his in game use.

Point to a rule that says if you can put the model on a transport vehicle they are there. You'll be at that a very long time, as no such rule exists. As a matter of fact, the rules say quite the opposite to what you are saying. Take a look at page 78 under the embarking rules, as a matter of fact I'll save you time and post it, "When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside making a note that the unit is being transported. So how exactly can Anrakyr be embarked on top of the CCB when the rules specifically tell us he is removed from the table and placed aside?

This precisely covers the situation, and is inarguable from a rules basis. Your model is not on the table, so you cannot draw LOS.

This is why i am annoyed it was not addressed. the fact that this arguement is happening over and over and over again shodul waarant it to eb in an FAQ.

I dont even really care at this point which way it goes. it just needs a 2 line entry


Q - Can Anrakyr use MiTM while embarked in a CCB
A - No.


DONE!!!

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Look at the model, can he see a vehcile. If answer yes, you have permission to use MiM. TLOS. The other rules are for units that are not capable of being physically embarked on or in the vehicle, and therefore require abstract rules to account for their use of such abilities. Anrakyr, does not require this as he is capable of being physically mounted on the chariot, and able to draw line of sight from the actual model, and not be off the board using abstract rules to represent his in game use.

Point to a rule that says if you can put the model on a transport vehicle they are there. You'll be at that a very long time, as no such rule exists. As a matter of fact, the rules say quite the opposite to what you are saying. Take a look at page 78 under the embarking rules, as a matter of fact I'll save you time and post it, "When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside making a note that the unit is being transported. So how exactly can Anrakyr be embarked on top of the CCB when the rules specifically tell us he is removed from the table and placed aside?

First off, as I've stated earlier in the thread, I think this scenario is back to being a gap in the rules and until that gap is addressed I would not use the MitM ability while embarked in a CCB. That said, I do think your response (Lone Dragon) is a bit of a straw man. The focus of the discussion is with regards to the CCB. This model, as supplied by GW, comes with an Overlord that can be mounted on the vehicle. Your point is a bit more generalized, and though I would agree with it, it ignores the nature of the CCB model itself.

-Yad

This is the only thing that would allow him to draw line of sight, but the only time he has permission to draw line of sight out of the vehicle is to shoot.

So, does that means when he is shooting he can also use Mind in the Machine?
After all, he can check all the ranges and line of sights while shooting.

In fact, all they need to do to fix this is to FAQ MiTM as a Shooting Attck. Problem solved.

This would dull the character down a little as well as he then not be able to use MiTM and his Tachyon Arrow in the same turn (i think).

I get the impression it was imagined like this as he's not shooting anything himself, he is shooting an enemy with their own guns. It's just a shame they didn't get their idea down on paper clearly enough in the first place.

Yad wrote:
This model, as supplied by GW, comes with an Overlord that can be mounted on the vehicle.

And that's irrelevant. It's still a vehicle (chariot specifically). It has to follow the rules for vehicles regardless of how it's mounted.
If you're trying to make it not follow those rules you must find an exception in the rules.
No one has ever been able to provide one. There isn't a grey area in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Survivor19 wrote:

This is the only thing that would allow him to draw line of sight, but the only time he has permission to draw line of sight out of the vehicle is to shoot.

So, does that means when he is shooting he can also use Mind in the Machine?
After all, he can check all the ranges and line of sights while shooting.

But he can't shoot "at the start of the Shooting phase" which is when MitM must be used.

I realise there are a lot lurkers out there.

But it would appear that, despite the valid arguements for it not working, the opposite view is winning the poll.

 Praxiss wrote:
I realise there are a lot lurkers out there.

But it would appear that, despite the valid arguements for it not working, the opposite view is winning the poll.

And the poll is irrelevant when actual rules haven't been presented to support that viewpoint.

But he can't shoot "at the start of the Shooting phase" which is when MitM must be used.

By that logic, can Mind in the Machine be used at all?
For any given unit, choosing of the target is the beginning of his shooting sequence. That's when LoS requirements can be met.

Survivor19 wrote:

But he can't shoot "at the start of the Shooting phase" which is when MitM must be used.

By that logic, can Mind in the Machine be used at all?
For any given unit, choosing of the target is the beginning of his shooting sequence. That's when LoS requirements can be met.

"Start of the Shooting phase" and "beginning of his shooting sequence" are two different things.

The only thing passengers can draw LoS from a vehicle for, even if the vehicle is open topped, is for shooting attacks and using witchfire powers. MitM is neither, so no, you can not use it while Anrakyr is embarked in a CCB or Ghost Ark.

 Praxiss wrote:
I realise there are a lot lurkers out there.

But it would appear that, despite the valid arguments for it not working, the opposite view is winning the poll.

No there is simply a vocal minority on this forum who simply are first of all, incapable of accepting that there are unclear rules that simply could go either way until GW directly addresses, but also a few of those same people just play this game entirely wrong. See threads referring to Mind Shackle Scarabs, and Grey Knight actually being Psykers. These people literally spend hours a day waiting for a discussion to come up so that they can supplant their distorted way of play game like this, for the way people actually play it. There was absolutely no basis to suggest that this ability did not work prior to the 5th edition FAQ that said you could not. That FAQ entry, like a few others, was entirely removed from the game with the 6th edition FAQ and GW in several instances clearly ruled in opposite ways to how they FAQ'd things from 5th editon, see GK halberds/Initiative. There is nothing preventing MiM, there are suggestions referring to other rules that it may not work, so it is entirely unclear and until FAQ'd by GW you should discuss it with a TO or roll off.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There was absolutely no basis to suggest that this ability did not work prior to the 5th edition FAQ that said you could not.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle were the same?

There is nothing preventing MiM, there are suggestions referring to other rules that it may not work, so it is entirely unclear and until FAQ'd by GW you should discuss it with a TO or roll off.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle don't allow it for anything but shooting?

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There was absolutely no basis to suggest that this ability did not work prior to the 5th edition FAQ that said you could not.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle were the same?

There is nothing preventing MiM, there are suggestions referring to other rules that it may not work, so it is entirely unclear and until FAQ'd by GW you should discuss it with a TO or roll off.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle don't allow it for anything but shooting?

It's an ability that draws LOS, has range and operates in the shooting phase. There is no difference.

Yes there is a significant difference. Mind in the Machine is a special rule that has no permission to be used from a fire point.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes there is a significant difference. Mind in the Machine is a special rule that has no permission to be used from a fire point.

And there is no denial to do so either.

Do we really have to go through the "you need permission, it's not enough that the rules don't forbid it" discussion again?

EDIT: It should be like a CAPTCHA - you can't post until you can demonstrate that you understand the concept of "permissive ruleset".

 NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
There was absolutely no basis to suggest that this ability did not work prior to the 5th edition FAQ that said you could not.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle were the same?

There is nothing preventing MiM, there are suggestions referring to other rules that it may not work, so it is entirely unclear and until FAQ'd by GW you should discuss it with a TO or roll off.

You mean besides the fact that the rules for drawing LoS from an open topped vehicle don't allow it for anything but shooting?

It's an ability that draws LOS, has range and operates in the shooting phase. There is no difference.

So its a shooting attack then? Funny, that's not what the codex says.
You're making assertions. Please back them with rules quotes.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes there is a significant difference. Mind in the Machine is a special rule that has no permission to be used from a fire point.

And there is no denial to do so either.

Couple things to say to this, first the burden of proof is on you to prove that the rules say you CAN do this. The next, the rules tell us what we can do. When a rule tells us that MitM can draw line of sight from a fire point (that RAW atm says only can be used for a shooting attack) you'll have a leg to stand on, and have actually proven your side. Until that point though, how you would play it is far from the actual way the rules are written. It would be like having a unit of genestealers using their weapon skill on a ballistic skill test. The rules don't say I can't do that, so by your argument (that nothing prevents it) then I can do that. If I tried that in a game people would nerd rage and walk out. In other words the stance you've taken in this discussion isn't based on how the rules are actually written, but on how you think the rules are written.

RAW and permissive rules arguments hardly matter in many situations? MSS, brotherhood of Psykers vs. anti psyker weapons, GK Vehicle psychic powers, etc. have proven many times that GW cares more about RAI than RAW.


You can sit on Dakka all day and argue RAW, but GW and TOs still lead the way in how this game is actually played.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
RAW and permissive rules arguments hardly matter in many situations? MSS, brotherhood of Psykers vs. anti psyker weapons, GK Vehicle psychic powers, etc. have proven many times that GW cares more about RAI than RAW.

And even GW is less than consistent when it comes to intent.

You can sit on Dakka all day and argue RAW, but GW and TOs still lead the way in how this game is actually played.

So you agree that RAW MitM cannot be used from the CCB?
Great. Argue intent all day long. TOs around here follow the RAW in this case.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
RAW and permissive rules arguments hardly matter in many situations?

If they hardly matter, then you must be playing some offshoot of 40k that you came up with. When it comes to Real 40k, we don't play by some abstract ruleset you came up with, we have a fairly rigid treatise on how to play the game. If you choose to play it how you want, it's on you to find players that will play with you when they find out you're actually not playing according to the rules.