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oooo, that was a close game till the end, way to stay in there!

So with the new FAQ ruling the Death Ray unable to hit flyers, do you think this game would have been a victory or a near hopeless loss?

oh wow, surprising finish, I thought the Necrons were screwed. I guess that just goes to show the critical importance of having plenty of scoring units.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Ouch, Necrons aren't doing so well... kind of what I expected to happen, but I figured the Wraiths would at least be able to win a couple combats. The dice seem to have turned on you this game jy2!

FNP assault marines and termies have always given my wraiths a hard time. Back in 5th, it was easier because I could more easily kill his Sang. Priests. Right now in this edition, it is much harder to do.

 Amaya wrote:
This is what happens when you use Deffkoptas as bikers instead of the real thing.

 SabrX wrote:

You've got to admit it's a kickass conversion.

Too bad AoBR will be OOP. Load up on Deffkoptas while they are still available!

The poor man's way of going nob bikers, but those bikers sure do look good, especially after a little paint.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Great game so far, in his turn three he should have used his fliers to block your death stars movement though. Doing this would have denied you the charge and bought him another turn. I wonder how the FAQ would have changed strategies, if you were able to re embark in your NS. Doesn't look like the death ray ruling would have changed much of anything. Also I have to give SabreX credit he is definitely improving as a player from when you first started these, or maybe he is really finding his mark in this edition. Good stuff fellas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Ouch, Necrons aren't doing so well... kind of what I expected to happen, but I figured the Wraiths would at least be able to win a couple combats. The dice seem to have turned on you this game jy2!

Curse of the GT, after I won my first and my brother his the dice gods took a steaming dump on us LMAO! Superstitious I know but it never seems to fail!

SabrX has always been a decent player, especially when playing an army he is familiar with (as in his own armies). I think most of the games where he made mistakes were probably with armies that were actually mine (i.e. when he was trying some new stuff out). Otherwise, some of his armies used to give me a lot of problems (his witchhunters and tau). Also, when we play, I usually have the better "luck" against him (I've had more good luck than bad luck against him).

But I think he has learned a lot from playing against me (I've also learned some things from playing against him as well). In that sense, he has definitely improved.

 Texx wrote:
oooo, that was a close game till the end, way to stay in there!

Necrons are deceptively resilient. Of course it helps when the dice goes in your favor later in the game.

 Unholy_Martyr wrote:
So with the new FAQ ruling the Death Ray unable to hit flyers, do you think this game would have been a victory or a near hopeless loss?

Very good question. No doubt that would have made an impact in this game. It wouldn't have been a hopeless loss, though a victory would be less than guaranteed. Honestly, if the FAQ came out before the game, I think the chances for a BA victory would have definitely increased.

But with my 8 scoring units to his 3, I think I would still be slightly favored to win it.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
oh wow, surprising finish, I thought the Necrons were screwed. I guess that just goes to show the critical importance of having plenty of scoring units.

So did the both of us during the game (well, me just a little itty bit). But honestly, I've played enough matches where I've been been down (and even more substantially than in this game) but came back from behind to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Yeah, my number of scoring units was just too much for my opponent to handle. If only his deathstar could get out of combat much sooner, he would have had a shot, but my scoring wraiths tying up his deathstar just sealed the deal to my victory.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Great game so far, in his turn three he should have used his fliers to block your death stars movement though. Doing this would have denied you the charge and bought him another turn. I wonder how the FAQ would have changed strategies, if you were able to re embark in your NS. Doesn't look like the death ray ruling would have changed much of anything. Also I have to give SabreX credit he is definitely improving as a player from when you first started these, or maybe he is really finding his mark in this edition. Good stuff fellas!

You are right. I was kicking myself over it. Jy2 used that trick against me in our Orks versus Necron match.

Post Game Analysis (SabrX):

The first half of the game went well. Two Wraith units gone, three of my scoring units were in tack, took out a Death Ray, and my Storm Ravens were all still a live. Then it started going down hill. My Storm Ravens got demolished by the Night Scythe and remaining Doom Scythe. Destroyer Lords are T6 and 2+, making them extremely hard to kill. In fact, Jy2's Warlord solo and defeated a full squad of Assault Marines + Sanguinary Priest without help. Jy2's last Wraith Unit made an unbelievable number for 3++ against my Thunder Hammers. The second Destroyer Lord made mincemeat against anyone he was in contact with. He kept issuing challenges, leaving my Librarian out most of the right. Combat locked my units for the rest of the game, allowing Jy2's Warriors to finish off my small Assault Marine units and grab high value objectives.

Luck certainly played a huge factor in this game. It swung in my favor the first half, but swung in Jy2's favor in the second half. Unbelievable! A single unit of Wraiths and two Destroyer Lords takes on two Assault Marine units and Assault Terminators, all with FNP! Believe me when I say Destroyer Lords or any Lord is a one many army. Lesson learned, give the Sanguinary Priest a Power Fist. Sergeant can answer challenge and IC have high survivability thanks to 'Look out sir!'

Mission and Warlord trait was definitely in Jy2's favor. There's just too many objectives and all but two of Jy2's scoring units have high mobility. Yet another reason why Jy2's 2K variation of his 1.5k tournament winning list reigns supreme. His list easily adapts to most missions.

Overall, I really like fielding triple Ravens. If it weren't for Jy2's single Doom Scythe being delayed a turn, I might have won the air battle. I made a huge mistake parking two of my Storm Ravens next to each other. Next turn, Jy2's Death Ray took out both. Storm Ravens definitely have enough fire power to rival that of Tesla Destructors. Plus, they are extremely effective against elite ground targets. It's also great having Power of the Machine Spirit enabling Storm Ravens to shoot at a second target.

SabrX

You have really got to field vanilla marines against JY2. They have everything you need to defeat him. They have combat tactics so you will never get stuck in combats you don't want and they have Null Zone which should make the Wraiths go poof. I love the bells and whistles of the BA just as much as anyone, but vanilla marines have all the answers. They just aren't flashy doing it.

DarthDiggler wrote:
SabrX

You have really got to field vanilla marines against JY2. They have everything you need to defeat him. They have combat tactics so you will never get stuck in combats you don't want and they have Null Zone which should make the Wraiths go poof. I love the bells and whistles of the BA just as much as anyone, but vanilla marines have all the answers. They just aren't flashy doing it.

There's too many units in codex Blood Angels that surpasses its mirror counterparts in codex vanilla marines. That said, a detachment of vanilla marines might work out.

On a side note, it seems GW's recent FAQ validates 2K 9 flyer Necron list or any flyer spam list that uses transport flyers. Seems like the only armies that could start all in reserves are Drop Pod armies, Necrons, Imperial Guard, potentially Tyranids, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights. I shudder at the thought of 90 Guardsmen all arriving in turn 2 from 9 Valkyries. In the words of the Weather Girls, "It's raining men!" Alternatively, it also means I could field multiple Assault Terminator units inside Storm Ravens to out-maneuver and assault Wraiths without having to worry about 50% reserve restriction.

Good to see that death ray get nerfed against flyers. Just wished they had addressed firing angle. Well played though Jim.

If you're completely in Reserves, you lose on Turn 1 (barring Damon's or Drop Pods).

furbyballer wrote:
Good to see that death ray get nerfed against flyers. Just wished they had addressed firing angle. Well played though Jim.

It's hull mounted. So it has a 45 degree firing arc, any models hit outside this are then under the "out of sight" rule meaning those hits are lost. Pretty straight forward to me, it's stupid rulings like the one made at Nova that spark confusion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
I must say that this game was a much tougher battle than the results would indicate. It just isn't easy to kill FNP marines, especially those FNP terminators. With the exception of the doom scythe deathrays, my opponent was getting FNP against all my attacks....and I couldn't even reliably take out his sources of FNP! Assault BA has just become better overall in 6th.

The choice of a triple-raven list was an interesting one. Against a flyer or mech-heavy list, the extra firepower does help. But personally, I would take no more than 2. There was a time when I didn't have any flyers on the table and during that time, his 3 stormravens really didn't do much. They just killed a couple of warriors and couldn't penetrate the invuln of my wraiths. That's 600 pts of firepower there that is overkill and inefficient against normal infantry. I think the key to his army is more FNP assault marines. I'd rather swap out the 3rd unit of stormraven (and perhaps 1-2 terminators) for 1 more unit of assault marines. I'd also try to get some fists in there, though against my MSS lords, they wouldn't really help much (I'd just challenge them). But in a TAC list, fists are invaluable, at least in a couple of squads. More importantly, however, was the fact that my opponent just didn't have enough scoring units. Despite the early beating I was taking, I easily locked up his troops so that they couldn't make it to the objectives. I didn't even need to kill them really, just to immobilize them so that my scoring MSU troops can swarm the objectives.

As for my wraithwing, it isn't particularly balanced as well. I would probably throw in another night scythe at 2K and more troops as opposed to more wraiths or the 2nd D-lord, but at the time, I didn't have my 5th scythe completed yet. I was even considering swapping out 1 doom scythe (+ change) for a night scythe and another annihilation barge as well. I want to incorporate more shooting into my TAC list.

In the game, I set out to do what I wanted to do, and with a little bit of luck at the end, I think I achieved my goal. My strategy was to ignore his deathstar initially and go after his troops. Then lock up his deathstar later in the game after I have dealt with his troops so that they can't go rampaging around. I had a much harder time trying to achieve this than I had thought, but the fact that I had 8 scoring units gave me a huge advantage. Because now he can't just ignore my wraiths and go after my troops. Because my wraiths are scoring, he had to go after them. The durability of the wraiths almost matched the durability of his troops and both ended up tarpitting each other. That worked in my favor as I still had troops able to go after objectives while all his ground units were tied up.

My D-lords were beastly in this game. I actually learned how tough they are after my last battle against Janthkin. 8 grey knights with nemesis force weapons against his normal Overlord and I still couldn't win combat! The D-lord, being T6, is even tougher than the Overlord. I knew one of those guys could take on an entire unit of assault marines just by himself. The trick was to protect him from a terminator counter-assault. But as for the MVP, I'd have to give it to the unit of wraiths who tied up his terminators for the rest of the game.

 SabrX wrote:

Post Game Analysis (SabrX):

The first half of the game went well. Two Wraith units gone, three of my scoring units were in tack, took out a Death Ray, and my Storm Ravens were all still a live. Then it started going down hill. My Storm Ravens got demolished by the Night Scythe and remaining Doom Scythe. Destroyer Lords are T6 and 2+, making them extremely hard to kill. In fact, Jy2's Warlord solo and defeated a full squad of Assault Marines + Sanguinary Priest without help. Jy2's last Wraith Unit made an unbelievable number for 3++ against my Thunder Hammers. The second Destroyer Lord made mincemeat against anyone he was in contact with. He kept issuing challenges, leaving my Librarian out most of the right. Combat locked my units for the rest of the game, allowing Jy2's Warriors to finish off my small Assault Marine units and grab high value objectives.

Luck certainly played a huge factor in this game. It swung in my favor the first half, but swung in Jy2's favor in the second half. Unbelievable! A single unit of Wraiths and two Destroyer Lords takes on two Assault Marine units and Assault Terminators, all with FNP! Believe me when I say Destroyer Lords or any Lord is a one many army. Lesson learned, give the Sanguinary Priest a Power Fist. Sergeant can answer challenge and IC have high survivability thanks to 'Look out sir!'

Mission and Warlord trait was definitely in Jy2's favor. There's just too many objectives and all but two of Jy2's scoring units have high mobility. Yet another reason why Jy2's 2K variation of his 1.5k tournament winning list reigns supreme. His list easily adapts to most missions.

Overall, I really like fielding triple Ravens. If it weren't for Jy2's single Doom Scythe being delayed a turn, I might have won the air battle. I made a huge mistake parking two of my Storm Ravens next to each other. Next turn, Jy2's Death Ray took out both. Storm Ravens definitely have enough fire power to rival that of Tesla Destructors. Plus, they are extremely effective against elite ground targets. It's also great having Power of the Machine Spirit enabling Storm Ravens to shoot at a second target.

Thanks, SabrX.

I will add this to my Post-game report.

Just a comment on the Sanguinary Priest. Don't bother giving him a Pfist. He is just challenge-bait and will get mauled by almost any other character in a challenge. And if you decline, then he wouldn't be able to fight anyways. I'd just leave him vanilla or perhaps with meltabombs.

DarthDiggler wrote:
SabrX

You have really got to field vanilla marines against JY2. They have everything you need to defeat him. They have combat tactics so you will never get stuck in combats you don't want and they have Null Zone which should make the Wraiths go poof. I love the bells and whistles of the BA just as much as anyone, but vanilla marines have all the answers. They just aren't flashy doing it.

Honestly, I think normal vanilla marines will lose most of those games on average. I am of the opinion that plain jane armies will get hammered by my list, but the more extreme lists (assault terminator-spam, triple-vindicators, Vulkan melta-spam, etc.) are the ones who will be able to compete. I just don't see a normal TAC list (like the one Reece runs....or even the ones Ben Mohlie run....sorry, no disrespect meant to anyone here) being able to handle my list. If they win, it will be a factor of good generalship and some fortunate dice, but IMO over the course of several games, the crons will take the majority of those games.

You need to keep in mind that wraiths also have a normal 3+ save in addition to their phase shifters. Thus, against Null Zone and small-arms fire, they are still highly survivable.

Don't get me wrong, vanilla marines can still win. I just feel that they will be an underdog almost every time and will lose more often than not on average against a good cron army run by a competent necron general.

 SabrX wrote:
On a side note, it seems GW's recent FAQ validates 2K 9 flyer Necron list or any flyer spam list that uses transport flyers. Seems like the only armies that could start all in reserves are Drop Pod armies, Necrons, Imperial Guard, potentially Tyranids, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights. I shudder at the thought of 90 Guardsmen all arriving in turn 2 from 9 Valkyries. In the words of the Weather Girls, "It's raining men!" Alternatively, it also means I could field multiple Assault Terminator units inside Storm Ravens to out-maneuver and assault Wraiths without having to worry about 50% reserve restriction.

Basically the FAQ just clarifies the 50%-must-be-deployed restriction. However, you still need to have models at the end of each game turn or you are screwed.

Drop pod armies and daemon armies can do it because they automatically come in on Turn 1. Any other all-reserves army will auto-lose if they don't have any models on the board at the end of Game Turn 1 (or any other game turn for that matter).

furbyballer wrote:
Good to see that death ray get nerfed against flyers. Just wished they had addressed firing angle. Well played though Jim.

Thanks. Yeah, the deathray was a little too good. Now it's a lot more reasonable weapon. They didn't address firing angle because the RAW is very clear. The fact that they didn't address it leads me to believe that the RAW was how they intended for the death ray to be played.

 Janthkin wrote:
If you're completely in Reserves, you lose on Turn 1 (barring Damon's or Drop Pods).

Correct.

 Red Corsair wrote:

furbyballer wrote:
Good to see that death ray get nerfed against flyers. Just wished they had addressed firing angle. Well played though Jim.

It's hull mounted. So it has a 45 degree firing arc, any models hit outside this are then under the "out of sight" rule meaning those hits are lost. Pretty straight forward to me, it's stupid rulings like the one made at Nova that spark confusion.

No, the deathray has its own unique rules as to how to use the deathray. It doesn't follow normal conventions for shooting, though its tesla-destructors do.

It tells you how you can angle the beam to get hits with the line, it says nothing about omitting the out of site rule when determining who is allocated wounds though. So angle it how they explain, but models that are outside the firing arc cannot be allocated wounds, see page 16.

 Red Corsair wrote:
It tells you how you can angle the beam to get hits with the line, it says nothing about omitting the out of site rule when determining who is allocated wounds though. So angle it how they explain, but models that are outside the firing arc cannot be allocated wounds, see page 16.

You are right, but it also depends on the scenario.


SCENARIO #1

......789
123456
___


Let's say we have a squad of 9 marines, of which #1, #2 & #3 are behind LOS-blocking terrain. The doom scythe then fires its deathray, which hits marines #1-#6. Even though I can't see marines #1-#3, however, I can still potentially kill 6 marines (#4 -#9) with that shot because the deathray isn't a sniping weapon.


SCENARIO #2

123456
___

Now in this scenario, the deathray still hits 6 marines. However, it can only kill 3 marines (#4-#6) because the gun cannot see #1-#3.

Your title has competed rather than completed (guess both kinda work though.

 jy2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
It tells you how you can angle the beam to get hits with the line, it says nothing about omitting the out of site rule when determining who is allocated wounds though. So angle it how they explain, but models that are outside the firing arc cannot be allocated wounds, see page 16.

You are right, but it also depends on the scenario.


SCENARIO #1

......789
123456
___


Let's say we have a squad of 9 marines, of which #1, #2 & #3 are behind LOS-blocking terrain. The doom scythe then fires its deathray, which hits marines #1-#6. Even though I can't see marines #1-#3, however, I can still potentially kill 6 marines (#4 -#9) with that shot because the deathray isn't a sniping weapon.


SCENARIO #2

123456
___

Now in this scenario, the deathray still hits 6 marines. However, it can only kill 3 marines (#4-#6) because the gun cannot see #1-#3.

Oh I know there are mitigating circumstances. The examples you provided work just fine with the wound allocation rules. My contention is only that you must have LOS via your firing arc in order to allocate wounds. So:

1 2 3 4 5 6
.....\\\\\\////
........\\\//
..........v 45 degree arc, please forgive my drawing and ignore periods lol dakka was messing up my drawing without them.

in this situation lets say you hit 1 through 6 and wound all 6, you can allocate all six wounds but you are restricted to to models 2-5 for allocation. So any wounds left over after saves are wasted. So many people are forgetting to apply the "out of site" rule to the Doom Scythe. Further more they omitted an explanation on it's mounting (both weapons actually) but I think it's safe to deduce that it isn't a turret, pintle, or sponson weapon. This leaves us with hull mounted as defined in the BGB which gives it a 45 degree LOS. I think this is the most conservative approach until they ever or if ever they address it's mounting officially. This is more what I was addressing before but your points are both spot on assuming proper arc.

I think Corbulo might be worth a try. His 2+ FnP gave me fits in a recent tournament and certainly contributed heavily to my loss. Destroyer Lords just bounce off of him and gives insane survivability to whichever unit he accompanies.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Oh I know there are mitigating circumstances. The examples you provided work just fine with the wound allocation rules. My contention is only that you must have LOS via your firing arc in order to allocate wounds. So:

1 2 3 4 5 6
.....\\\\\\////
........\\\//
..........v 45 degree arc, please forgive my drawing and ignore periods lol dakka was messing up my drawing without them.

in this situation lets say you hit 1 through 6 and wound all 6, you can allocate all six wounds but you are restricted to to models 2-5 for allocation. So any wounds left over after saves are wasted. So many people are forgetting to apply the "out of site" rule to the Doom Scythe. Further more they omitted an explanation on it's mounting (both weapons actually) but I think it's safe to deduce that it isn't a turret, pintle, or sponson weapon. This leaves us with hull mounted as defined in the BGB which gives it a 45 degree LOS. I think this is the most conservative approach until they ever or if ever they address it's mounting officially. This is more what I was addressing before but your points are both spot on assuming proper arc.

I'd have to disagree here.

LOS is not the limiting factor for arc of fire once the target has been deemed a legal target (unless the other models are completely out of LOS). Just 1 model needs to be in your firing arc and then you can kill more than just 1 model in that unit (again, assuming the other models are not completely out of LOS). The easiest example I can think of is this. Let's say you fire at a unit with just 1 model in range of your guns (say you are firing only the heavy bolters from your leman russ). In that unit, only 1 model is 36" from your gun. The rest of the guys are more than 36" away. You can still kill more than 1 model in that unit from your shooting even though technically only 1 model from that unit is within range of your guns. I believe this applies to arc of fire as well. If even 1 model from the target unit is in your arc of fire, then you have LOS to the entire unit (assuming you can actually physically see them) and can hurt more than just that 1 model in the unit.

 Lukus83 wrote:
I think Corbulo might be worth a try. His 2+ FnP gave me fits in a recent tournament and certainly contributed heavily to my loss. Destroyer Lords just bounce off of him and gives insane survivability to whichever unit he accompanies.

I'm not sure how well Corbulo fits in a primarily jump infantry list, but against necron "power weapons", he isn't much different from a terminator in terms of survivability (well, maybe he is a little more survivable). However, he is also slightly more vulnerable to the deathray with only LOS to keep him alive.

I see him as a better fit in a land raider with terminators or a stormraven. I really don't see him working too well in a primarily jump infantry list. Sure you can put him with the deathstar unit of terminators, but that's just putting more points into a unit that I am going to (try to) ignore anyways.

 jy2 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Oh I know there are mitigating circumstances. The examples you provided work just fine with the wound allocation rules. My contention is only that you must have LOS via your firing arc in order to allocate wounds. So:

1 2 3 4 5 6
.....\\\\\\////
........\\\//
..........v 45 degree arc, please forgive my drawing and ignore periods lol dakka was messing up my drawing without them.

in this situation lets say you hit 1 through 6 and wound all 6, you can allocate all six wounds but you are restricted to to models 2-5 for allocation. So any wounds left over after saves are wasted. So many people are forgetting to apply the "out of site" rule to the Doom Scythe. Further more they omitted an explanation on it's mounting (both weapons actually) but I think it's safe to deduce that it isn't a turret, pintle, or sponson weapon. This leaves us with hull mounted as defined in the BGB which gives it a 45 degree LOS. I think this is the most conservative approach until they ever or if ever they address it's mounting officially. This is more what I was addressing before but your points are both spot on assuming proper arc.

I'd have to disagree here.

LOS is not the limiting factor for arc of fire once the target has been deemed a legal target (unless the other models are completely out of LOS). Just 1 model needs to be in your firing arc and then you can kill more than just 1 model in that unit (again, assuming the other models are not completely out of LOS). The easiest example I can think of is this. Let's say you fire at a unit with just 1 model in range of your guns (say you are firing only the heavy bolters from your leman russ). In that unit, only 1 model is 36" from your gun. The rest of the guys are more than 36" away. You can still kill more than 1 model in that unit from your shooting even though technically only 1 model from that unit is within range of your guns. I believe this applies to arc of fire as well. If even 1 model from the target unit is in your arc of fire, then you have LOS to the entire unit (assuming you can actually physically see them) and can hurt more than just that 1 model in the unit.

Except page 16 tells us exactly how to do it and models being in range is a separate entry entirely. There really isn't a leg to stand on for you here, the "out of sight" rule tells us that you cannot allocate wounds to a model that you don't have LOS to, 6th edition brought with it new rules, this is one of them. You assign wounds and determine LoS by model now, not by unit. So like I said, given that it appears to have a hull mounting, you can only claim LoS in it's 45 degree arc. Models outside this can't have wounds assigned to them from the wound pool, so they are lost. Like I said before, the only area I think there could be a slight chance for wiggle room is in determining what type of mounting the weapon has, as GW didn't directly tell us. But if we are assuming a hull mounting, you have to provide proof that the DR ignores page 16's out of sight rule.

Edit: Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by partial LOS, I reread your post and realized it didn't make sense to me. Have you read the "out of sight" header on pg16? It tells us the opposite of what you are claiming in regards to some models being in los. I agree you can hit and kill whoever is in los but what I am proposing is that models hit by the DR that are outside of its 45 degree LoS arc cannot have wounds allocated to them. As per page 16.

either way maybe we should start a thread in YMDC?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
link
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/475679.page#4755127

Thanks for opening a thread in YMDC. I was going to do it, but you beat me to it.

I guess we will continue our debate there.

Another issue that came up during this match was the Stormraven's top gun. It isn't classified as a turret, but it's modeled to pivot. However, it only has a 180 degrees turn due to the rear engine intake. I didn't realize this because my Stormraven has the Chapterhouse full scale extension, making it 360 degrees pivot.

I started a thread in YMDC:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/475721.page

 jy2 wrote:
Thanks for opening a thread in YMDC. I was going to do it, but you beat me to it.

I guess we will continue our debate there.

No problem, I figured you did enough work posting the report

Great work on this Battle Rep!