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Is it possible to still gain Kantors "Hold the Line" special rule which makes Sternguard scoring units... Even if my Chapter Tactics are Vulkan Hestans?
Thanks for your time.

You could take pedro for his points cost and just rename him as a salamander hero, aslong as your using the same rules most people would be fine with him having a cosmetic change.

No. You must choose which Chapter Tactics rule applies and cannot benefit from both at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
You could take pedro for his points cost and just rename him as a salamander hero, aslong as your using the same rules most people would be fine with him having a cosmetic change.

The codex says you can do it so people have no choice in the matter, they have to accept it. However, the question was about using 2 Chapter Tactics rules at the same time, which is sadly no.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
No. You must choose which Chapter Tactics rule applies and cannot benefit from both at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hobojebus wrote:
You could take pedro for his points cost and just rename him as a salamander hero, aslong as your using the same rules most people would be fine with him having a cosmetic change.

The codex says you can do it so people have no choice in the matter, they have to accept it. However, the question was about using 2 Chapter Tactics rules at the same time, which is sadly no.

If I recall correctly (don't have the book with me), Pedro's chapter tactic is Stubborn. Hold the Line is just another special rule that Pedro has that turns sternguard into scoring units. As such, you could take him in any codex marine army and gain the benefit of that rule, but not the Stubborn chapter tactic (unless you don't have another special chapter master).

"Hold the Line" is triggered by his Chapter Tactics, which kind of suggests that it's not present the rest of the time. Of course, "kind of suggests" is a pretty weak rules argument, when it comes down to it.

It does more than 'kind of suggest' it. Chapter Tactics is what grants Hold the Line to Sternguard, so if you are using Vulkan's Chapter Tactics, you don't get Hold the Line.

I don't have my book to hand, but if I remember correctly, "Hold the Line" reads like a separate rule in its own right, in addition to being explicitly granted by his Chapter Tactics. I.e., if the Chapter Tactics section wasn't there at all, there would be no reason to not apply "Hold the Line".

Hold the Line is indeed listed separately, but it is specifically granted by Chapter Tactics.

If Chapter Tactics wasn't there, Hold the Line wouldn't be either.

The easiest way to put this one to rest is to point out that Pedro has the Chapter Tactics special rule. He does not have a rule called hold the line listed under his special rules in the army list section, ergo if he does not have the rule hold the line, it must be dependent upon that use of Chapter tactics.

Hold the Line is a special rule given to Sternguards, not Kantor. But, as Insaniak has said it is a part of Kantor's Chapter Tactics rule and cannot be separated.

"...exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule and your Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply."

I don't even particularly disagree with any of that, but you're being obtuse if you think it's clear - indeed, Lone Dragoon's point is the only reason why it's a set rule at all. There's a rule under Pedro's description that's not in his Chapter Tactics that states that if he's in the army, your Sternguard are scoring. Why wouldn't people assume that's a rule in effect? Because it's referenced in Chapter Tactics (weak - granting a rule in one place does not take it away elsewhere), because it's not in his list entry (not quite as weak, but easily overlooked)? People get it wrong all the time, and if they've put some effort into a Pedro/Vulkan list, it's hard to convince them otherwise.

On that subject: if any of you also browse Warseer, I invite you to wander over and set BigHammer straight on this exact same issue:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?351713-Kantor-and-Chapter-tactics

I think the Argument is setteld by looking at his Unit entry in the part that has all the points and not his FLUFF page! Pedros Special rules are x, x, x and Chapter Tactics. NOT X, X , X Chapter Tactics AND HOLD THE LINE! Hold the line is under his Chapter tactics and NOT a secondary Special rule! As much as we would ALL love to have mastercrafter Combi meltas and Combi Flamers being a scoring unit, I dont think its gonna happen. But please be sure to send GW an E-mail so they get it in the FAQ if you feel the need to clarify this further.

I'm not seeing where it is not clear. When you take someone else’s Chapter Tactics, everyone else loses their Chapter Tactics entry, thus Pedro will no longer have anything that falls under his Chapter Tactics.

Look at it this way, if you only have Pedro and (for some silly reason) do not apply his Chapter Tactics to your army your Sternguard will not gain “Hold the Line!”.

The only way to gain Hold The Line is to be using Pedro's Chapter Tactics, the definition of it below is just that, the definition. You will notice in Chapter Tactics it says "and your Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule detailed below."

The only reason it is listed below is because it's there to define a rule that is only brought up in that characters description.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Hold the Line is a special rule given to Sternguards, not Kantor. But, as Insaniak has said it is a part of Kantor's Chapter Tactics rule and cannot be separated.

Some examples about this though where they will typically give them one rule that hands out a different rule to units, The High King on Logan Grimnar gives USRs to units. Nemesor Zahndrek's Adaptive tactics gives USRs to units. Even in C:SM Sicarius gives out USRs to tactical squads. That shows they have a history of special rules that are given out by unique characters. In other words the ability to give out special rules must be built into one of the rules, and as Pedro Kantor does not have the Hold the Line special rule that is given out to other units (remember it has to come from one of his rules), then it must only come from chapter tactics because that is the only place that it is mentioned that he gives out Hold the Line. That's what I meant by my post, if he doesn't have the rule hold the line he has to give it out from one of his special rules.

This is interesting though as the guy who beat Hulksmash round one at the Nova Open was using Kantor s an ally to his BA and was using the hold the line on his BA SG. If you watch the 11th company live feed you can see them debate it at the start of the match.



This is just a side tangent of course.

 Red Corsair wrote:
This is interesting though as the guy who beat Hulksmash round one at the Nova Open was using Kantor s an ally to his BA and was using the hold the line on his BA SG. If you watch the 11th company live feed you can see them debate it at the start of the match.



This is just a side tangent of course.

We hashed that one out already, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467747.page Has some interesting reading at least.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Hold the Line is a special rule given to Sternguards, not Kantor. But, as Insaniak has said it is a part of Kantor's Chapter Tactics rule and cannot be separated.

Some examples about this though where they will typically give them one rule that hands out a different rule to units, The High King on Logan Grimnar gives USRs to units. Nemesor Zahndrek's Adaptive tactics gives USRs to units. Even in C:SM Sicarius gives out USRs to tactical squads. That shows they have a history of special rules that are given out by unique characters. In other words the ability to give out special rules must be built into one of the rules, and as Pedro Kantor does not have the Hold the Line special rule that is given out to other units (remember it has to come from one of his rules), then it must only come from chapter tactics because that is the only place that it is mentioned that he gives out Hold the Line. That's what I meant by my post, if he doesn't have the rule hold the line he has to give it out from one of his special rules.

Well then, we are in violent agreement. Like you said, it is Chapter Tactics that gives it out.


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 hisdudeness wrote:
Look at it this way, if you only have Pedro and (for some silly reason) do not apply his Chapter Tactics to your army your Sternguard will not gain “Hold the Line!”.

You are correct.

However, you can't choose to not apply Chapter Tactics. The only choice you get is to pick which one applies if you have multiple characters with Chapter Tactics. (see Space Marine FAQ)


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Pyrian wrote:
I don't even particularly disagree with any of that, but you're being obtuse if you think it's clear

I am being no such thing. It is very clear using only the words written on the page. If you apply Kantor's Chapter Tactics Sternguards get Hold the Line!. If not, they don't.

Ha, forgot about the lack of choice.

But it does not come from the FAQ, it is the Chapter Tactic wording. The is no "can/may" in the Chapter Tactics.

 hisdudeness wrote:
Ha, forgot about the lack of choice.

But it does not come from the FAQ, it is the Chapter Tactic wording. The is no "can/may" in the Chapter Tactics.

True. But people have tried to claim otherwise, hence why it is in the FAQ.