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...discuss...

Not when I bring Melta Sternguard in Drop Pods.

Uh.... yes/no/maybe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How many is spam? What army? What point value? What definition of 'naughty' are we using?

I've heard of opponents refusing to play when you field more than 1 LR.

It's kind of an all-or-nothing strategy. If your opponent has a way of dealing with it, they are just going to table you. If they don't, you are going to crush them. Either case makes for game that's not as fun as it could be.

At low point games, some armies are going to struggle with ways to deal with it, so I'd feel bad fielding them. At higher points, I don't want to risk getting tabled by someone who prepared for it. Anti-mech is reasonably common.

spamming LRs I guess would be 3+... as BA can take them as dedicated transports its possible to pack a few more in too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess anti mech is a wee bit more viable in 6th. I want to run an assault vehicle BA army... which limits me to LRs and Stormravens.... although the latter need to hover and can only move 6" when disembarking (unless 'jumping out' en route)

not if your fighting eldar or deldar lance wepons will make you look silly also tau can spam str10 shots so it really depends who you play

Can you really spam units that are 250+ points? Also, generally heavily restricted due to force org.

Just don't fight anything with broadsides, or necrons.

daedalus - You can, but its points heavy.

For basic BA's:

Libby - 100

assault squad with landraider - 350 ish
assault squad with landraider - 350 ish
assault squad with landraider - 350 ish
assault squad with landraider - 350 ish

Thats at 1,500 points, so its easy enough to spam them to some degree.

Broadsides are a pain to everything though, so dont see why they are an issue?
They tend to open up every piece of armour in the game with just as much ease.
However, you have a ton of lascannons / flamestorm cannons firing back at them.

Hah, go for it.

I have 4 landraiders myself, I just never tend to field them.

Maybe that will change with the cheaper Phobos LR for Chaos filled to the brim with berserkers or something.

Necrons.

I brought two to a 1,000 pt tournament and only one of my opponents was pissed at me bringing them. They're really not that hard to kill with melta weapons, but not all lists are flexible enough to handle it.

Spamming dreads was actually more annoying at one point, but with changes to grenades and other crap, they are alot easier to deal with now.

BA army:

Astorath

Furioso dread
Furioso dread
Furioso dread

DC dread
DC dread
DC dread
DC dread
20 death company

Ranged dread
Ranged dread
Ranged dread

If points permit, you can add in 5 more DC and get another DC dread too

No. It is entirely permissible to spam units that will only make your army easier to beat.

My response to reading the OP in my head was "lol whot?"

then I read... mein gott o_O

 hamlet wrote:
I've heard of opponents refusing to play when you field more than 1 LR.

Soooo I'm going to build an army with a MASSIVE ENORMOUS FLAW and people won't play it?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No. It is entirely permissible to spam units that will only make your army easier to beat.

And with this I think we can /thread


-edit- I thought about it some more.

If there's that guy at the FLGS (or even the LGS...) who doesn't have enough melta/lance/plays necrons, it sort of is naughty.
If someone doesn't have the army/models to beat the raiders, then it is sort of naughty. You could be a nice person and let them proxy some flamers as meltas or something. Or you could be a fair person and say no WYSIWYG. But then they have to go buy meltaguns. At which point you switch back to your normal army because who's going to spam landraiders at a meltagunline?
At which point, you have now forced some guy to buy a whole lotta plastic anti-tank guns and models to counter your army your no longer fielding.

So in certain circumstances I can see it being "naughty"

 Jackal wrote:
daedalus - You can, but its points heavy.

For basic BA's:

Libby - 100

assault squad with landraider - 350 ish
assault squad with landraider - 350 ish
assault squad with landraider - 350 ish

Company Command Squad
+Toys

Platoon Command Squad
+Toys
6x Infantry Squads
+More toys.. 75pts worth of toys to be exact

Thats at 1,500 points, so its easy enough to spam them to some degree.

Broadsides are a pain to everything though, so dont see why they are an issue?
They tend to open up every piece of armour in the game with just as much ease.
However, you have a ton of lascannons / flamestorm cannons firing back at them.

I've added in what it was lacking prior, see bold. Boots on the ground. I think this would be quite a fun army to field!

Wasnt really lacking anything as it wasnt a true list lol.
Was simply to show that raiders can be placed in high numbers in smaller games.

However.

Libby - 100

Assault squad in raider - 350
Assault squad in raider - 350
Assault squad in raider - 350
Assault squad in raider - 350
Assault squad in raider - 350
Assault squad in raider - 350

Leaves you at 2,200 points with 6 raiders.
With some tweaking and exact points you should be able to squeeze a 7th in for 2,500 games.



However, its DE i fear now with the new design at over 2,000 points -_-
Double force org = 12 units of 5 warriors all with venoms with 2x splinter cannons.
Oh, and you could throw in 6 ravs for HS to be annoying.

Jackal wrote:However, its DE i fear now with the new design at over 2,000 points -_-
Double force org = 12 units of 5 warriors all with venoms with 2x splinter cannons.

I'm going assume you meant to say 12 units 5 Warriors each with a Blast Pistol, as otherwise Land Raiders have nothing to fear from them. Even then, you will have a turn of standing around before those Blast Pistols are in range, a turn in which each Raider can shoot at 2 Venoms each. Given the list you presented had 6 Raiders, that means each Venom has to survive either a TL LC shot, or both a TL LC shot with some TL HB shots.

Actually, i ment what i said godless.
Im a daemons player so that many poison shots really makes me sad lol.

However, im sure the 6 rav's that i put on that aswell wouldnt mind land raiders.

Blast pistols are junk.
Not enough range on them.
Best bet for that is blasterborn squads.

I do not want LRs against Necrons. Gauss weapons or Scarabs will eat them up and for a lot less points.
I have watched 1st turn death on LRs that charge into necrons. Not pretty watching your army go up in smoke...

Ya'll think it's the blasterborn, or the Ravagers that you should be scared of?

It's the Wyches.

Ravagers ain't gak unless they're shooting at AV 10-11, they cannot reliably eliminate AV 12. It's that 60 point squad of Wyches that doesn't give a feth about armor value that you should be concerned with.

Erm, ravs have 3 dark lances, i think they are up to the job as usually 3 in a 2.5k list was enough, 6 should be able to pick up the strain.

Wyches are nice, but low T, low armour, need a pain token before being amazing etc.
Haywire nades are pretty damn good though.

Should have pics of my wych cult on dakka.
Only anti-tank was haywire and i never really had that many issues. (before 6th)

Ravagers are terrible against AV 12.

3 shots, on average 2 will hit, those two both have a 33% chance to penetrate. That's about a 66% chance for one penetrating hit per Ravager. That's awful. That's really really awful. Especially since then you have to roll on the vehicle damage chart and pray to god you don't roll immobilized. All in all, a Ravager only has something like a 20% chance of destroying a Land Raider. Which is fine, since it's less than half the cost of the Land Raider, but to expect a Ravager to do well against one will leave you sorely, sorely disappointed. You'd need three to reliably kill a single land raider a turn.

Strength 8 is incredibly inefficient against AV 12, you need to spam the hell out of it to do proper damage.

Whereas 5 wyches will remove a Land Raider from the table just about every other turn they assault. 55% chance of stripping a hull point in the shooting phase, and then another 55% chance of stripping a single hull point per wych in the assault phase. 55% of 6 is just above 3, and since dice don't deal in decimal points, it can quite often swing towards 4. And you don't need feel no pain to do that. Nor do you need to worry about their survival. I will happily trade 60 points worth of Wyches for 250 points of Land Raider every time. Hell of a lot cheaper than a Ravager, and hell of a lot more efficient. 3 squads of Wyches can remove 1-2 Land Raiders a turn, and horribly maim whatever remains and hose down the passengers with splinter cannon fire. The Ravager needs 3 to work in concert just to have a shot at killing one land raider, and cannot do any damage to the contents.

Worrying about land raider spam wasn't an issue in 5th edition, because everyone that could, spammed enough melta to not worry about it. Now with people dumping melta like its going out of style and jamming as many plasmaguns as they can into their lists, land raiders become more of an issue to them.

I guess the bottom line is: if you run across people that refuse to play a game with you based on the legal codex list you choose to play, then they are not worth playing to begin with. Find somebody else and let loose those land raiders!

 Jihallah wrote:


If there's that guy at the FLGS (or even the LGS...) who doesn't have enough melta/lance/plays necrons, it sort of is naughty.
If someone doesn't have the army/models to beat the raiders, then it is sort of naughty. You could be a nice person and let them proxy some flamers as meltas or something. Or you could be a fair person and say no WYSIWYG. But then they have to go buy meltaguns. At which point you switch back to your normal army because who's going to spam landraiders at a meltagunline?
At which point, you have now forced some guy to buy a whole lotta plastic anti-tank guns and models to counter your army your no longer fielding.

So in certain circumstances I can see it being "naughty"

I pity the fool who packs no melta.

Now seriously, if the dude does not pack anti-armor, his freaking fault. you can reverse the question and say "Well, i pack only units with few, powerful, shots-so i refuse to play against horde armies!", the "naughty" player could just as well run a 6-ironclad in pods list, and he would once again be powerless, despite a totally different army. he could run a terminator spam list-again with no heavy guns you are powerless. got no long range? sure I'll just pack my 3 thunderfire cannons to blow you to narnia as your horde helplessly tries to advance. (and considering how thundercannons are highly unused, refusing to play him because he has them spammed and you run hordes makes you a serious dick, refusing to play against generally unwanted units?)

A good list should be able to at least take a shot against every possible array of enemy units, if there is some sort of setup you can do nothing against-then your list is weak and improve it.

And what if i have no anti-air, so I wont play against people who use aircraft? if I have no long-range then people using artillery is bad and I should refuse to play them? if I run only heavy guns then I will refuse to play against hordes?


Edit:
The biggest issue with spam-they do one thing EXTREMELY well, but they usually suck at anything else, find their weakness and exploit it for an easy win.
The raider/assualt squad has a glaring problem-you have to get close from the firstplace, so if the enemy just shuffles away while sending anti-armor shots are you (melta should just rush in to finish it, but I mean the longer-ranged ones), they WILL do heavy damage before you get anywhere near them.

 Jackal wrote:
Actually, i ment what i said godless.
Im a daemons player so that many poison shots really makes me sad lol.

Right, but what do Land Raiders care about Poison shots?

Gotta agree with with Boomwolf. If you've made any list over 500pts, and you brought no antitank, then you're asking to get stomped by an armored list. I bring russes at a 1,000pts all the time, and people at my store know to bring heavy anti tank even at low points. And I'm pretty restrained, we have another guy who always runs at least 2 and nothing but meltavets in chimeras

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
not if your fighting eldar or deldar lance wepons will make you look silly also tau can spam str10 shots so it really depends who you play

My Blessed Hull Land Raider Crusaders would like a word with you!

Yeah I would say bring your spam of landraiders, and I'll table you because you spent half your points in vehicles that are going to go pop.

Everyone says armor sucks this edition, I know a guy that brings 8 chimeras and 2 vendettas, and 2 manticores, and a squad of baneworlfs, and a leman russ in there somewhere at 1850. That is alot of armor to deal with.

Land Raiders are laughably easy to kill by any competent army. The real danger is what they're carrying.