Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/09/04 20:55:36
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
The national debt topped $16 trillion on Tuesday, adding fuel to Republican's criticisms of President Obama's deficit spending just as the Democrats are kicking off their national convention.
Mitt Romney lamented "the enormous debt" being handed the nation's children, while House Speaker John Boehner called it a "sad reminder of President Obama's broken promise to cut the deficit in half."
But if you thought China's been doing most of the bankrolling, you might be surprised to learn who really holds our federal mortgage.
Fully two-thirds of the national debt is owed to the U.S. government, American investors and future retirees, through the Social Security Trust Fund and pension plans for civil service workers and military personnel. China, it turns out, holds less than 8 percent of the money our government has borrowed over the years.
“It is true that China is the largest foreign owner of our debt,” said Josh Gordon, policy director of the Concord Coalition, a Virginia-based nonprofit that advocates getting the nation’s debt under control. “But the vast majority of our debt is held by us.”
“It is true that China is the largest foreign owner of our debt. But the vast majority of our debt is held by us.”
- Josh Gordon, Concord Coalition
Economists differ on when the National Debt actually crested the $16 trillion mark, with some saying it occurred on Friday and others saying it happens on Tuesday. But none doubt that the federal government's tab is immense and growing. Just under $5 trillion of the national debt is owed to the Social Security Trust Fund and federal pension systems. A little more than $11 trillion is owed to foreign and domestic investors and the Federal Reserve, which buys up treasuries in order to drag down interest rates through quantitative easing.
China has actually decreased its holdings of U.S. debt over the past year, dropping from $1.31 trillion in June 2011 to $1.16 trillion a year later, according to the Treasury Department. Japan holds nearly as much, at $1.12 trillion. Those countries are by far the biggest foreign holders, but dozens of other nations, including Brazil, Russia, Taiwan, Switzerland and the United Kingdom hold trillions more.
Inside the U.S., private investors hold nearly $1 trillion in federal debt, while mutual funds, insurance companies and state and local governments hold nearly double that amount.
Yet China continues to be viewed as the poster child for financing our deficit spending, often demonized as if it is holding our debt over us. Republican U.S. Rep. Michele Bachmann joked during her failed campaign for the GOP presidential nomination that when it came to the debt, "Hu's your daddy," a reference to Chinese President Hu Jintao.
President Obama, during his 2008 campaign, criticized President Bush for taking “out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents … so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back.”
But Obama has been unable to slow the rapidly mounting debt. The nation owed $10.6 trillion on Jan. 20, 2009, when he was sworn in, and has added another $5.4 trillion since – more than Bush piled up in two terms.
"Instead of working in a bipartisan way to fulfill his promise, the president went on a 'stimulus'-fueld spending binge," Boehner said. "This debt is a drain on our economy and a crushing burden on our kids and grandkids."
Romney accused Obama of leaving Americans "worse off than when he took office."
"But it's not just this generation that's paying the price," he said. "The next generation has been saddled with enormous debt because of President Obama's policies."
Romney also had been critical of China, even mentioning the debt owed to the Communist country in his acceptance speech last week
"Does the America we want borrow a trillion dollars from China?" Romney said at the Republican National Convention.
"There's a lot of China-bashing," said Burton Abrams, an economics professor at University of Delaware and author of "Wreckonomics: America's 10 Worst Economic Policies of the Last 100 Years."
"You wouldn't get mad at a bank that gave you a low-interest loan to buy a home," he added. "But politicians like to find an external enemy to rally the troops against, and China's an easy target."
Gordon has a theory for why China gets blamed for doing little more than investing in the U.S. and allowing us to stave off the day of financial reckoning.
“If you look 10 or 15 years back, they probably weren’t in the top five,” Gordon said. “Then you had this very large country whose economy suddenly grew a pace not normally seen, and that came just as we were going into a cycle of massive deficit spending.
“Honestly, if it had been Great Britain, instead of a country with a record of human rights violations and one that has not been a traditional ally of ours, you might not have heard as much about it.”
IFirst off. I no longer care who's at fault for the debt so lets not bring up the bar graphs, party bashing and finger pointing. China owes 8% of our debt not including other countries. By this article (yes I know its Fox news but bite the bullet) If the US owns most of the debt that we self inflicted on ourselves could we as a nation bring it under control. Throw some idea's here how DakkaDakka can do it. I for one would seriously look at the US Postal Service. US Military. et etc etc.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/09/04 21:02:08
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Did you not know that we were the majority holder of our own debt before now..? That's a really, really important consideration when discussing what government debt is and does.
By this article (yes I know its Fox news but bite the bullet) If the US owns most of the debt that we self inflicted on ourselves could we as a nation bring it under control.
The article doesn't bother to point out that most of Obamas debt increase is due to dramatically reduced tax intake due to the recession and the stimulus, which no party wouldn't have done. This is an important issue, but these sources really strongly taint perceptions.
Anyway, my opinion on reducing the debt! It's impossible without socializing our healthcare system and getting the reigns on military spending (the majority of which is healthcare). It all revolves around our abysmal healthcare system, fix that and everything else ceases being important.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/04 21:11:53
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/04 21:29:57
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
d-usa wrote: 2) You raise taxes. You cannot attack the problem from one side, while totally ignoring the other.
Or get those huge multinationals (and indeed pretty much every reasonably large company or wealthy individual) to pay the tax they actually owe, rather than dodging out of most of it... I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Google pays only something like 3% tax? Hell, the 60 odd UK billionaires pay less than 0.1% tax on their income...
So yeah, close down the loopholes and ensure that everyone pays what they should.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/04 21:31:12
Jihadin wrote:First off. I no longer care who's at fault for the debt so lets not bring up the bar graphs, party bashing and finger pointing. China owes 8% of our debt not including other countries. By this article (yes I know its Fox news but bite the bullet) If the US owns most of the debt that we self inflicted on ourselves could we as a nation bring it under control. Throw some idea's here how DakkaDakka can do it. I for one would seriously look at the US Postal Service. US Military. et etc etc.
Well, the most obvious answer is to get rid of all the old people. I suppose some sort of Logan's Run -type of plan would be pretty efficient.
2012/09/04 21:41:40
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
instead of Hunger Games, the Replacement Knee Joint Games!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2012/09/04 21:41:52
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Logan though basically upended the apple cart on that policy though.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/09/04 21:44:01
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Is that a safe way for cannibalism? If I'm thinking of the correct movie. This the one with a small steak with lots of fat on it in the movie?
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/09/04 22:34:13
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
I might be coming at this from the wrong angle, but isn't most of what's consumed in the USA, from USA brands, made in foreign countries?
I mean, instead of raising taxes on these companies you create incentives for them to keep relatively low taxes for them to pay, while creating employment and all that follows?
I'll admit it's a naive and (probably very) flawed way of seeing things, but I never understood how some of your companies could generate so much profit while only maintaining the core of it's business "home".
anonymous @ best Warhammer Miniature wrote:i vote the choas dwarf lord as they are the greatest dwarfs n should get there own codex
2012/09/04 23:26:26
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Government debt is not household debt. It doesn't have to be paid back, it will be inflated away. As long as interest rates are around or below inflation, profit.
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
2012/09/04 23:35:59
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Thus the simplistic fear if the tea partiers. If loaners refuse to ante up and buy at the current low rates, they will be forced to raise the interest bearing rate of the necessary loans.
To simplify say the current rate is 2% on 10 trillion. that means 200 billion just to pay off the interest owed. Now say that no one buys unless you raise it to 3%. Now you have to pay off 300 billion just to stay even. So if you have 500 billion in revenue and say 800 billion in spending, you are now going into debt 600 billion instead of 500 billion. So next year does the buyer demand a higher rate? This could be a real pain and could spiral out of control.
Now the goverment has the ability to print money to fix it all. However that could go south if the dollar devalues. So great your 500$ check now has to pay for 600$ of products to eat, clothe and drive yourself...
I am not an economist but this is the fear - real or not - of continuing to "go to the credit cards."
I am afraid that the overspending will not stop until it HAS to stop. I agree give us true universal healthcare, contain the spiralling cost of healthcare and a lot of the pressures go off.
Reducing the military expenses would also do alot to contain the costs.
2000
2000
WIP
3000
8000
2012/09/04 23:52:05
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Hhhmm and eat another human being wrapped like stick of gum.....
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/09/05 01:18:36
Subject: US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
I see the US Postal Service being under the scapel first
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/09/05 02:20:52
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Jihadin wrote: I see the US Postal Service being under the scapel first
If you cut the postal service one hundred and twenty five times you would balance the budget. It's strange that you keep harping on .012% of the annual deficit as if it means anything at all. If you cut it over fifteen hundred times you could fix the national debt.
Jihadin wrote: I see the US Postal Service being under the scapel first
If you cut the postal service one hundred and twenty five times you would balance the budget. It's strange that you keep harping on .012% of the annual deficit as if it means anything at all. If you cut it over fifteen hundred times you could fix the national debt.
Jihadin wrote: I see the US Postal Service being under the scapel first
If you cut the postal service one hundred and twenty five times you would balance the budget. It's strange that you keep harping on .012% of the annual deficit as if it means anything at all. If you cut it over fifteen hundred times you could fix the national debt.
Suddenly the reason you seem misinformed on virtually every topic that exists it made clear..
And which one is misinformed? What part? All of it? Did you even read it?
Remember the big tax fight at the end of 2010, when Republicans simply wanted to keep the Bush tax rates in place? The Republican plan was scored as adding $544B to the 10-year deficit since those rates were scheduled to increase. Democrats, being so concerned about deficits suddenly, argued that that was too much. They wanted to let tax rates increase on higher incomes. So here's how they all compromised: they kept all those tax rates in place and added yet more tax cuts to make the total bill $858B. The "compromise" was bigger deficits than either party originally proposed. Here were the tax cuts and credits added by Democrats. (By the way, a "credit" is considered a "tax cut" even if you had no taxes to cut and the government sent you a check.)
This is the biggest pile of partisan weasel wording I've seen in months. The entire link is like this. It takes broadly known facts and coats them in a thick glaze of republican talking points and assertions to re characterize the meaning of virtually every number and date given. It attributes things like a republican readiness to let the bush tax cut debate end without riders and numerous tie ins and expansions (like the keystone pipeline) and characterizes the entire debate as a democratic snafu leading to a widening budget gap.
This characterizes the exact way you consistently debate. If you also questioned my sources while quoting this thing it could be any post from the last few months.
(6) The changes did absolutely nothing to address the fact that the U.S. has the highest corporate tax in the developed world, which incentivizes U.S. businesses to move and hire overseas.
This is a fething gem given that the tax code gives significant incentives to hiring in the U.S. and a majority of largescale international companies based in the U.S. don't pay any taxes at all (googles famous 3%). It also ignores the fact that the corporate tax rate has stayed unchanged since Clinton had a surplus and the U.S. saw the lengthiest economic expansion it had in half a century at that time.
It's bs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/05 02:46:55
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/05 02:46:50
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Oh look, casual dismissal of reality in favor of an editorial on some dudes partisan fanpage chock full of glaring factual and logical holes. Oh my, it's 10:49pm and I can't see the sun. Sure is normal in here.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/05 02:57:21
Subject: Re:US debt tops $16 trillion: So who do we owe most of that money to?
Oh look, casual dismissal of reality in favor of an editorial on some dudes partisan fanpage chock full of glaring factual and logical holes. Oh my, it's 10:49pm and I can't see the sun. Sure is normal in here.
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
--
2000
2000
WIP
8000 
3000+
