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This might be a stupid question (I believe characters are the only models that typically can issue challenges/accept challenges), can dreadnoughts issue challenges? I imagine the answer is a big loud 'NO!' but I was just curious, wasn't sure if there were any that did or did not, just interested to know.

Edit:
There is a Dreadnought for SW that is an HQ right? (Doubt he gets to challenge either, again, just seeing if I overlooked something).

Only characters can issue/accept challenges - so dreads can't.

Not sure about the SW one though (Bjorn the Fell Handed i think?). although it is an HQ choice is it actualyl listed as a chacter or a walker?

More to the point - can it join a unit? If it cant join a unit then the point is moot.

 Praxiss wrote:
Only characters can issue/accept challenges - so dreads can't.

Regular Dreads aren't characters, aye. I don't see anything why a vehicle couldn't be a character.

Not sure about the SW one though (Bjorn the Fell Handed i think?). although it is an HQ choice is it actualyl listed as a chacter or a walker?

As Björn the Fellhanded is a named special character, he is a Character by default.

More to the point - can it join a unit? If it cant join a unit then the point is moot.

Why would it be moot? As he is a Character, he can still benefit from Precision Shots and Precision Strikes, and can still issue and accept Challenges.

Bjorn gets precision shots/strikes and can issue challeges and accept them as he is a named character.

I do not think this extends to BA librarian dread however.

I was going to say it would be moot as, if he can't join a unit, he would be by himself, thus making a challenge irrelevant.

Then as i got over my brain fart and considered the other side of a challenge as well.

i suppose Bjorn woudl be a special case as he is both a character and a dread.

A standard dread (inonclad, DC, whatever) woudln't be able to though.

Are Libby dreads characters as well though?

No, as they are neither unique, which makes you a character by default, not are they listed as characters

Fair enough.

So it looks like Bjorn is the sole exception to this then. At least i can't think of any other vehicles/walkers that are also characters.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, as they are neither unique, which makes you a character by default, not are they listed as characters

What backs this up?

I ask because the only reference to Unique from the Index at the back says "Each special character is unique, so a player cannot include multiples of the same special character in an army."

all SCs being Unique doesn't necessarily make the inverse true.

I suppose the issue is the only other means we have to determine if something is an SC is whether it has a specific name, which isn't exactly clear, whose to say a "Bjorn the Fell-Handed" isn't just a strange rare pattern of Dreadnought?

All this said I do feel he probably should be a character, I'm just trying to establish a firmer framework for identifying them than what I can see at the moment.

It does not explicitly state that named/unique models are character.

However, page 63 implies that named models are characters, and (AFAIK) the only unique model listed in the appendix is the Avatar of Khaine, who is listed as a character.

The gist of the special characters section is that any named model, lukas the trickster, lemartes, marbo, etc are special characters. It is not a well worded section by any metric but it does cover you for that.

If we are going to allow Bjorn to be a "CHARACTER" (rules wise) because he has a name and is special are we then to allow Pask and Space Marine Tanker (his name escapes me) to make their tanks Characters? For those of you arguing that its the Tank shooting the weapons and NOT the Characters keep in mind that Tanks (Current ones) have a Tank Commanders overide to allow the TC to take the shot if the gunner is out of action or sucks! I think as far as LEGALITY goes the back of the book or an ERRATA would be the only place to determine Percision shot/ Challange availibility. IMHO Dreads SHOULD be Characters if we are allowing Nobz and Paladins to be Characters!

Dooley wrote:
If we are going to allow Bjorn to be a "CHARACTER" (rules wise) because he has a name and is special are we then to allow Pask and Space Marine Tanker (his name escapes me) to make their tanks Characters? For those of you arguing that its the Tank shooting the weapons and NOT the Characters keep in mind that Tanks (Current ones) have a Tank Commanders overide to allow the TC to take the shot if the gunner is out of action or sucks! I think as far as LEGALITY goes the back of the book or an ERRATA would be the only place to determine Percision shot/ Challange availibility. IMHO Dreads SHOULD be Characters if we are allowing Nobz and Paladins to be Characters!

I'd allow it. I'll challenge your Pask to a gentleman's round of fisticuffs, he gets to use his tank. What was the CC profile on that thing again? Oh, that's fine, I'll just deliver my blows then.

Yeah, I don't see why not, let them do their precision shots. Chronus could use a little boost in viability. I also don't see why Chronus has a servo arm but can't use it to fix his tank or hit things attacking his tank...

Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

Dooley wrote:
Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

The main gun I can sort of see if it says he can shoot that.
The side sponsons are, as I recall in the rulebook, described as two extra crewmen, added to the tank for the sole purpose of shooting those things, so there it wouldn't be him shooting. There's a lot of traction on that slope.

Guns dont kill people Characters kill people. I will give you the Sponsons and Hull mounted weapons and Raise you a Machine Spirit! Would A Machine Spirit benefit from Chronus' Persicion shot?

 Purifier wrote:

Dooley wrote:
Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

The main gun I can sort of see if it says he can shoot that.
The side sponsons are, as I recall in the rulebook, described as two extra crewmen, added to the tank for the sole purpose of shooting those things, so there it wouldn't be him shooting. There's a lot of traction on that slope.

That was the old book, the new one skimped out on fluff to get a bajillion new units in.

Then either my book is outdated, or it does say on page 48, paragraph 5 on the right side

It requires a minimum of four crew to operate a Leman Russ battle tank, with another two added to this number if side sponsons are fitted. [...] A dedicated gunner mans each and, together with the primary turret, they supply a torrent of fire that f*cks sh*t up

I paraphrased that last bit.

Altough Pasks Special rule applies to ALL the weapons he fires so I would argue that any Percision shots would ALSO carry over to the other weapons on the vehicle.

Dooley wrote:
Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

Not really, as both are an upgrade to a vehicle, but sill only an upgrade as the vehicle dose not become a chronus. nor could you issue challenges or accept them as you have to be engaged to to do that and vehicle are not considered to be engaged. Now if the vehicle blows up and chronus jumps out per is rules, hes a character and can issue accept challenges etc..

Azrell wrote:

Dooley wrote:
Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

Not really, as both are an upgrade to a vehicle, but sill only an upgrade as the vehicle dose not become a chronus. nor could you issue challenges or accept them as you have to be engaged to to do that and vehicle are not considered to be engaged. Now if the vehicle blows up and chronus jumps out per is rules, hes a character and can issue accept challenges etc..

Well, that's a good point. I am going to have to change my answer based on that...

Azrell wrote:

Dooley wrote:
Chronus ( thanx for the name) is much like Odd Ball from Kelly's Heros, he is no Tech Marine. He "doesnt know anything about fixing them man, he just drives them". So You allow Pask to be a Character eh? Cool I will mount him on a Russ with a Punisher Cannon and Heavy Bolters and a Heavy stubber and percision shot it up! Same with Chronus on a Land Raider Crusader!

Its a slippery slope!

Not really, as both are an upgrade to a vehicle, but sill only an upgrade as the vehicle dose not become a chronus. nor could you issue challenges or accept them as you have to be engaged to to do that and vehicle are not considered to be engaged. Now if the vehicle blows up and chronus jumps out per is rules, hes a character and can issue accept challenges etc..

What about Asdrubael Vect's "Dais of Destruction" it's clearly a named vehicle, it's not explicitly unique, however it is a one off by virtue of Vect himself being unique.

Bjorn's Type is not listed as 'Character', so no challenge is possible.

UltraPrime wrote:
Bjorn's Type is not listed as 'Character', so no challenge is possible.

Non of the named characters have a Charcter Type.
Some have Independant Character Special Rule.
Arjac Rockfist and Lucas have neither type nor special rule. So are they not characters?

UltraPrime wrote:
Bjorn's Type is not listed as 'Character', so no challenge is possible.

Where is this list of characters to which you refer? Or are you simply referring to the appendix in the back of the book?

For the record my claims of Pask and Chronus being Characters was hypothetical. I am aware that they could NOT issue challenges but I would assume that Percision shots and LOS COULD be included in the list of neat things they could do. However the appendix that lists all the Characters and unit types does NOT list them as Characters so I am fine with them NOT being such. I am sure once the second round of FAQig and ERRATAing comes around this will all be cleared up (I am sure in the negative).

Here's something tangentially related. On the section about warlord powers, there is a warlord power with the phrase

"even if your warlord is a vehicle."

I'd be more specific, but I don't have my rulebook here. The first candidate I thought this would apply to is Bjorn the FAILhanded. Wouldn't your warlord have to be a character? So this wording seems to suggest that they at least considered the possibility of vehicle characters.

He is a character. All Special Characters are Characters, not all Characters are Special Characters.

Ok so if HE is a character who else is a Character and what do you have to support that claim? The Appendix in the back of the book or corasponding Army FAQ's SHOULD determine who is a Character and who is NOT I would think?

BRB 63 wrote:Other characters, such as Mephiston of the Blood Angels, fight as units on their own.

So either named unique units (like Mephiston) are characters, or the book used an irrelevant example.

I'll let you decide.