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So, seeing as how 6th has a good selection of psichic abilities, I am looking at using a primaris psycher. Really looking for sugestions on what I should use. I mainly run mech vets with alot of tank support.

Best way to use primaris psykers: don't. You can't get the one discipline IG actually want, and your default power is just another gun that's worse than a CCS.

 Peregrine wrote:
Best way to use primaris psykers: don't. You can't get the one discipline IG actually want, and your default power is just another gun that's worse than a CCS.

And yet Tony Kopach just won NOVA with an IG list including a Primaris Psyker. Almost as if Divination isn't the only good lore in the game!

I love psychic shriek. Just love it. I've only used it in 2 battles, mind you, but it has, so far, killed belial, devestated a deathwing squad and almost wiped an assault squad.

Firstly, I've got to defend the psyker for lightning arc. With the new rules for HP, S6 spam has now gotten a LOT better. You know who can spam S6 shots? A primaris psyker. You know what else in the codex can spam S6? Basically nothing.

As for the other psychic powers, I'll second telekinesis. There are some pretty wicked abilities in there ("hey, mephiston, why do you keep hitting yourself?"), but I think I'd stay away from most else. Most stuff in the guard codex isn't worth buffing with biomancy, and pyromancy skills are just dumb compared to telekinesis.

In any case, for only 70 points, he can certainly punch above his weight level in 6th edition. If you have some spare points, chuck him in - you probably won't go too wrong. If you don't, though, then whatever. He's not mandatory.

I've got the sneaking suspicion though that the primaris will be the "marbo" of 6th ed.

What do you mean by the "Marbo" of 6th ed?

Anyways, I've tried him with biomancy with powerblobs. There are 2 really amazing power in there, the enfeeble one especially can be devestating.

However, the rest are garbage, and I doubt I'll keep running that.

I'm looking at the telekinesis discipline as well. I'm on the fence about keeping lightning arc though. I've had times where it's wrecked face, and other times where it's failed miserably. I'll keep trying it, but I'm not sure it'll stick around...

By that I mean that in 5th edition you often had this scenario:

"Hmm, I've got [65-100] points left over to spend, what could I spend them on? It's too many to just spend on upgrades, but it's not enough to buy another entire unit. If only there were something medium-cheap I could just shoehorn into my list..."

In 5th edition, those spare, say, 85 points turned into Marbo and some other junk. My guess is that if a commander has that many points to blow in 6th ed, they're going to reach for a primaris psyker instead.

As for lightning arc. Yeah, I'm love-hating it too at the moment. I think time will tell.

 Ailaros wrote:
Firstly, I've got to defend the psyker for lightning arc. With the new rules for HP, S6 spam has now gotten a LOT better. You know who can spam S6 shots? A primaris psyker. You know what else in the codex can spam S6? Basically nothing.

Nothing besides Chimeras, AC HWS (with even better guns for the same price), Sentinels, various FW units...

Besides, it's not like lightning arc is all that impressive anyway. You're talking about an average of less than two Chimeras worth of STR 6, and without the heavy bolters. Compare that to the impact of a CCS, and the psyker is pretty disappointing unless you absolutely need to save those points.

As for the other psychic powers, I'll second telekinesis. There are some pretty wicked abilities in there ("hey, mephiston, why do you keep hitting yourself?"), but I think I'd stay away from most else. Most stuff in the guard codex isn't worth buffing with biomancy, and pyromancy skills are just dumb compared to telekinesis.

Err, I think you mean telepathy, not telekinesis.

And anyway, telepathy is terrible. You can't get invisibility or hallucination, dominate is mediocre, mental fortitude is worthless (especially when you could have a CCS instead), puppet master is situational (it's only better than a CCS if you can use it against a Leman Russ or similar tank, and not every army has them), terrify is worthless, and your primaris power is just another gun that's worse than a CCS. As underwhelming as lightning arc is, I'd still rather have it than take a 50/50 gamble between a worthless power and a mediocre one.

I've got the sneaking suspicion though that the primaris will be the "marbo" of 6th ed.

Except Marbo can actually have a major impact on the game for his 65 points. He will often kill something a lot more valuable, and even when he doesn't he often forces your opponent to deploy so that they aren't vulnerable to the demo charge. The primaris psyker does none of this, it's just another generic shooting unit that does less than the Chimeras you're already taking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
And yet Tony Kopach just won NOVA with an IG list including a Primaris Psyker. Almost as if Divination isn't the only good lore in the game!

That's nice. Now can you tell us WHY he used it, and how the differences between the NOVA format and the actual game of 40k might have contributed to that choice?

The NOVA guy took it for biomancy powers I believe, which makes sense. He has a 50 man blob of guardsmen, heck yes he wants those biomancy powers. In a situation like that, he can be nasty. He's also the cheapest "effective" HQ option. What I mean by that is while a CCS can be more effective, it'll cost more to get them all the upgrades they need. A primaris is ready to go at 70pts.

And I disagree about the Marbo thing. Reason why people would just throw Marbo in, was because he used a slot that's usually empty for IG (elites). Nobody really brought 3 stormtrooper teams, so there was always room for him. Almost nobody leaves their second HQ slot empty, so it'll be rare that they just "happen" to have a free slot and points to spend on him. If anything, Marbo will remain the Marbo of 6th ed (my god that hurts my brain to read) in that he's even better now, remained the same cost, and still doesn't have much competition in most IG lists for things in the elites slot. Not everyone brings 30 stormtroopers after all

Kopach also took Njal, and a entirely foot list. A CCS would of been exposed w/o a chimera and adding a Chimera for the CCS would of raised the cost of his IG HQ unit substantially. The PP gave him another psyker to imbed in his 50 man blob, and another chance at the powers he wanted.

Peregrine wrote:Nothing besides Chimeras, AC HWS (with even better guns for the same price), Sentinels, various FW units...

... which are very different units. A primaris hiding in a blob is way, way more durable than a couple of multilaser sentinels or HWSs. The chimera isn't a good analogue either, as you can't take them by themselves, being a dedicated transport, and the point of the transport is to transport, not to just sit there shooting. Once again, it's going to be easier to take out a pair of chimers (which you also have to pay more for) as well.

And the psyker can always join another squad once the one he started with gets whittled down. And the can take BiD against vehicles.

And he can take other pretty neat psychic abilities. And he comes with a force weapon. And he can take warlord traits if you want him to. And the helps any squad he's with deny the witch.

Peregrine wrote:Err, I think you mean telepathy, not telekinesis.

And anyway, telepathy is terrible...

There are several very useful things that a primaris psyker can do. He can give -1S and force endless difficult terrain tests against enemy assault units. He can give a power blob FNP. He can rake terminators with a 4-shot Ap2 weapon. He can give a unit a 4+ cover save ANYWHERE on the board, not just in ruins or behind an ADL. He can throw haywire grenades with a 30" threat range. He can give a power blob a 5+ invul that reflects shots back at the firer. You can make your opponent's stuff attack their own units.

And that's before you count shriek or S6 spam, or the fact that his power weapon causes instant death.

Seriously, if you think that primaris psychic powers are bad, it's because you lack creativity, not because they don't have options. I'm sure lots of people are not constrained by negative prejudice as are you. I know that you only like ragging on stuff, but at some point it just comes across as whining.

Peregrine wrote:Except Marbo can actually have a major impact on the game for his 65 points.

He's a single-shot battlecannon that hits what he points at only 55% of the time. One of the most over-rated things in the codex.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Reason why people would just throw Marbo in, was because he used a slot that's usually empty for IG (elites). Nobody really brought 3 stormtrooper teams, so there was always room for him. Almost nobody leaves their second HQ slot empty

I don't know. I actually think you're rarer than you think by bringing 2 CCSs. A huge majority of the lists I've seen only include a single CCS, and then usually nothing. Most people actually do have an open HQ slot. If they don't, odds are decent that they already have a psyker anyways, or at least will be the case into the future, given that lord commissars got slightly less useful and psykers got a fair bit better.

 Ailaros wrote:
which are very different units.

Obviously they're different units, the point is that mid-strength spam is not something limited to the primaris psyker. You can add up various advantages and drawbacks to each, but in the end lightning arc just isn't that special.

Peregrine wrote:There are several very useful things that a primaris psyker can do. He can give -1S and force endless difficult terrain tests against enemy assault units. He can give a power blob FNP. He can rake terminators with a 4-shot Ap2 weapon. He can give a unit a 4+ cover save ANYWHERE on the board, not just in ruins or behind an ADL. He can throw haywire grenades with a 30" threat range. He can give a power blob a 5+ invul that reflects shots back at the firer. You can make your opponent's stuff attack their own units.

You can do those things if you roll the right power. The problem is that half of those things are situational at best, and the other half are buried in a table where you have a 1/4 to 1/6 chance (depending on the number of warp charge 2 powers in the table to force a re-roll) of actually getting the one you want, and a much larger chance of getting something that sucks. Once you consider the high chance of failing to even get the power you want, or failing the psychic test, or having the target pass DTW, you find that it's better to just spend the points on more guns.

And that's before you count shriek or S6 spam, or the fact that his power weapon causes instant death.

Except, as I've already said, lightning arc is mediocre, psychic shriek is bad (LD test + DTW + need to roll well = just bring a plasma CCS), and a STR 3 force weapon is almost useless.

He's a single-shot battlecannon that hits what he points at only 55% of the time. One of the most over-rated things in the codex.

Actually it's more than 55%, since you rarely need a perfect zero scatter. If we allow a 2" scatter (which still hits a vehicle target, and almost always inflicts plenty of hits on infantry) it's 72%. If we allow 3" (still almost always hits a vehicle, and still good against infantry) that goes up to 81%. So a 70-80% chance to hit, AP 2 vs. the battlecannon's AP 3, and the ability to deliver it anywhere you want, from any direction you want, and often avoid cover entirely. This alone gives Marbo a very good chance of killing more than his point cost, and once you add in the psychological effect on your opponent from having Marbo sitting in reserve it's 65 points well spent.

I am pretty sure Ailaros' point was once you have completed a list, once everything has been purchased that you need and you still manage to have left over points you would go for marbo. Now, that is going to be true for the primaris.

To this point I agree, although Marbo is still boss, his tricks have been seen and most know how to handle him when he appears.

 UMGuy wrote:
I am pretty sure Ailaros' point was once you have completed a list, once everything has been purchased that you need and you still manage to have left over points you would go for marbo. Now, that is going to be true for the primaris.

Yeah, but how often is that really going to happen? And is the primaris really a better option than a couple multilaser Sentinels, Marbo, freeing up a few more points for a second CCS/melta stormtroopers/etc, or even making major changes to the list so you don't "accidentally" have that many spare points left? And whatever the answer to that is, it just means that the primaris psyker is cheap enough to throw in at the end, not that it's actually a good unit that you'd put in your list from the beginning.

To this point I agree, although Marbo is still boss, his tricks have been seen and most know how to handle him when he appears.

Sure, but you pay a cost for "handling" his tricks, especially now that cover is model-by-model in 6th and you can focus fire on the models out of cover. You can anticipate Marbo's arrival and spread out your devastators so you don't lose the whole squad to a demo charge, but I'm going to be very happy if this means you can no longer fit the entire squad (or the other similar squads you had to re-deploy as well) behind cover. I'd actually argue that this ability to force your opponent to react to such a cheap unit is almost as useful as the demo charge itself.

The primaris psyker, on the other hand, doesn't really do any of that. It adds another gun to a unit, but your opponent doesn't have to treat it much differently than a couple random Chimera multilasers.

 UMGuy wrote:
To this point I agree, although Marbo is still boss, his tricks have been seen and most know how to handle him when he appears.

I don't know, there is only so much you can 'handle'. He is a one trick wonder who just got better in a LOT of situations, and in a few others (cover saves etc) became more of a one trick wonder...but he already was really, so hey

So, I did some more reading, and have become even more wowed with a TK PP.

The psyker has about a 3 in 4 chance of rolling either crush or O.M. Not too shabby odds. The best part about these abilities is that they just hit, straight away. This makes them very, very useful against fliers.

In the case of O.M. you're all but guaranteed to throw off an HP off of a flier every turn. If you're good at keeping the psyker alive, he could conceivably take down two fliers per game by himself. With the help of other nearby stuff, he's got a lot going for him. Plus, he will occasionally cause penetrating hits as well. Plus, he also screws up the shooting capability of whatever he targets, and basically stops precise shots.

In the case of Crush, you've got a lot going against said auto-hit fliers as well. Against an AV10 flier, if the power goes off you have a roughly 50% chance to cause a penetrating hit (and even more if you want to count glances). It also has a 33% chance to come up as either Ap1 or Ap2. This seems BEASTLY against fliers.

But the best part is that it works against ALL vehicles this way (I'd note the O.M. also affects regular vehicles as well), which makes it good even when there's not fliers around. But that's not all! It's also FOCUSED witchfire, which means you've got a 1 in 4 chance of causing a precise shot. With a S 2D6 Ap D6 weapon. This is probably the best proper sniper in the guard codex, as it can cause ID and ignore armor saves in the right circumstances.

And let's not forget gate. There are several places where you can do things like take 3 BS4 meltaguns, for example. Being able to shunt them 24" forward means you're getting stuff into melta range you never thought you would have. If you combine him with al'rahem, you have a unit with 4 twin-linked BS3 meltaguns that can show up literally anywhere on the board. In melta range.

That's three good, possibly game-changing abilities that you have on a 70 point model. And you get two tries to get one of them. And even then, their other abilities aren't literally useless (I have a tough time imagining just how much I'll get out of shockwave, though) either. As an added bonus, if you get crush or O.M. as your first power, you can always just straight-up take shreik, or roll on TP and then take shreik if you don't like what you see.

And he's an IC, which gives added flexibility and durability.

The more I read, the more I think the PP will become more popular.

If you're trying to avoid getting charged, Shockwave is pretty cool, as it puts a unit in difficult terrain, and halves initiative. Remember, it doesn't have to cause an unsaved wound, merely cause a save.

 Ailaros wrote:
The psyker has about a 3 in 4 chance of rolling either crush or O.M. Not too shabby odds. The best part about these abilities is that they just hit, straight away. This makes them very, very useful against fliers.

Check the new FAQ. If you don't roll to hit, you don't hit flyers, period (exactly like I expected them to rule it), so the psychic powers are worthless against flyers.

But the best part is that it works against ALL vehicles this way (I'd note the O.M. also affects regular vehicles as well), which makes it good even when there's not fliers around. But that's not all! It's also FOCUSED witchfire, which means you've got a 1 in 4 chance of causing a precise shot. With a S 2D6 Ap D6 weapon. This is probably the best proper sniper in the guard codex, as it can cause ID and ignore armor saves in the right circumstances.

Can, but will it? First of all the 25% chance is reduced to about 21% chance because of DTW (assuming basic 6+ DTW, if they have a better one it only gets worse). Then you actually have to get within 18", get decent results on the STR and AP rolls, and then hope they don't have a cover save. Once you account for all of that you're looking at a "sniper" weapon that doesn't look much better than a random character's plasma pistol.

Really, the best sniper in the IG codex is the Griffon. It's cheap, it's extremely accurate, it wounds most things on a 2+, and it tends to get enough hits that even MEQ targets die by sheer volume of saves.

And let's not forget gate. There are several places where you can do things like take 3 BS4 meltaguns, for example. Being able to shunt them 24" forward means you're getting stuff into melta range you never thought you would have. If you combine him with al'rahem, you have a unit with 4 twin-linked BS3 meltaguns that can show up literally anywhere on the board. In melta range.

Don't forget deep strike scatter. Trying to go straight to melta range carries a high risk of mishap unless you have a special rule to improve deep strike accuracy, and adding a primaris to Al'rahem just means you're risking a really expensive unit. End result: it's situational at best.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Best way to use primaris psykers: don't. You can't get the one discipline IG actually want, and your default power is just another gun that's worse than a CCS.

And yet Tony Kopach just won NOVA with an IG list including a Primaris Psyker. Almost as if Divination isn't the only good lore in the game!

Heretic!!!

You will field WAAC/netdecked lists or else...

Peregrine wrote:Check the new FAQ. If you don't roll to hit, you don't hit flyers, period (exactly like I expected them to rule it), so the psychic powers are worthless against flyers.

We actually both screwed up here. Crush is witchfire, so it still only snap fires. Can take BiD, though...

As for the FAQ, it only disallows beams, novas, maelstorms, and anything with an area of effect. Maledictions, like O.M. still work normally. You could still doom a flier without having to roll to hit, or it being immune altogether.

Peregrine wrote:Don't forget deep strike scatter. Trying to go straight to melta range carries a high risk of mishap unless you have a special rule to improve deep strike accuracy, and adding a primaris to Al'rahem just means you're risking a really expensive unit. End result: it's situational at best.

The odds that a unit with no help lands either dead on, or withing 6" of where it was trying to go is .61. That's a goodly most of the time. Plus, even if you scatter farther, there are still plenty of directions that a person can scatter in that will still leave them within 6" (and especially within 12") to get the shots off.

It's not THAT unreliable.

 Ailaros wrote:


It's not THAT unreliable.

Said your stormtroopers. Never.

I kid, once or twice they've landed close

But seriously, deep strike, while risky, can deliver your weapons right when you need them, and its not like its compulsory like the weirdboys thing, you can atleast choose when and how you use it.

 Ailaros wrote:
As for the FAQ, it only disallows beams, novas, maelstorms, and anything with an area of effect. Maledictions, like O.M. still work normally. You could still doom a flier without having to roll to hit, or it being immune altogether.

I don't really think there's a convincing argument for it. GW has made the point pretty strongly that you can't touch a flyer unless you roll to hit it, so it seems like rules lawyering to suggest that a malediction somehow isn't an "attack". It might be correct RAW, but I wouldn't expect that loophole to last very long once GW realizes that they missed an item on their list.

The odds that a unit with no help lands either dead on, or withing 6" of where it was trying to go is .61. That's a goodly most of the time. Plus, even if you scatter farther, there are still plenty of directions that a person can scatter in that will still leave them within 6" (and especially within 12") to get the shots off.

Or, to look at it the other way, there's a 40% chance that you'll scatter more than 6", and at that point the mishap chance starts looking pretty bad in addition to the chance of just scattering out of range and wasting your shots. I'd take that chance with a cheap unit, but you're paying 70 points for the PCS, another 70 points for the psyker, and then maybe even more points for Al'Rahem. For that price you could just buy a couple squads of melta storm troopers and get better deep strike accuracy that doesn't depend on rolling the right power on a random chart.

Yes, deepstriking has risks, but it has rewards. Big, big rewards, depending on your situation.

Plus, you don't HAVE to use it to attack vehicles. You can also use it to teleport scoring units onto objectives, or just generically get guys closer. Or have them escape from something bad. There's a lot gate can do.

As for targetting fliers, the argument you're making is that psychic powers don't work against fliers, at least, not unless they're witchfire. That doesn't really make sense. It's pretty clear that their intention was to exempt fliers from things that do area of effect damage.

It very much seemed like it was bringing psychic powers into line with the rule that you can't fire blast or template weapons and fliers, rather than that all fliers are now shadows in the warp...

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, you don't HAVE to use it to attack vehicles. You can also use it to teleport scoring units onto objectives, or just generically get guys closer. Or have them escape from something bad. There's a lot gate can do.

I agree that it can be useful, but it's situational. You have to roll it, and then you have to get into a situation where you're willing to risk the unit. If I could just take it as an upgrade for a unit it would be appealing, but I can't justify spending 70 points on something that might work.

As for targetting fliers, the argument you're making is that psychic powers don't work against fliers, at least, not unless they're witchfire. That doesn't really make sense. It's pretty clear that their intention was to exempt fliers from things that do area of effect damage.

The argument I'm making is that GW's policy seems to be denying exceptions to the "hard to hit" rule. If you want to hurt a flyer, you bring skyfire, or you hope for 6's. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the end result will be GW puts a psychic power that automatically inflicts a hit with a certain type of weapon into the "no auto hit weapons" category.

But look at which psychic powers they expressly forbid. They forbid beam, which is the exact same thing they did when they forbade chariots from hitting fliers just because of a straight line. They forbade nova, and maelstorm which affect things automatically just by being close to a certain spot on the board. This is in total synch with the idea of fliers being immune to other things that attack the board, rather than the unit (like blast and template weapons), and hope to catch things on that part of the board in the damage.

The intention clearly wasn't to stop you from being able to target fliers altogether.

*shrugs*

Only one way to find out for sure, and that's wait until the next FAQ.

And I agree that RAW it works now, I'm just skeptical that a power that is essentially a haywire shooting attack that automatically hits is consistent with GW's defense of the "hard to hit" rule. I wouldn't deny it if my opponent tried to use it, but I also won't be at all surprised if the anti-flyer use doesn't last very long.

But you'd also have to deny the rest of the power then. O.M. is a curse that does a bunch of stuff and then allocates (note that it doesn't say hits with) a haywire roll to the vehicle.

Parsing out some of the power working and some parts not is silly, and throwing the whole thing out on the grounds that maledictions can't target fliers seems iffy as well.

And as for gate, yeah, you only have two chances to get it. My point, though, was that of the 5 TK powers you can take, 3 of them are pretty good. Odds aren't that great that you only get the exactly two that aren't.

I've been running a Primus with Biomancy in my Mech Vet list for fun.

It's nice when he gets Iron Arms or Warp Speed, because it means that I now have an IC that can do some damage in Close Combat. He starts out at St3, but with the +2 for the staff and +d3 from Iron arms, he can potentially punch tanks or Instant death models without needing to use his force weapon. Having an IC that's immune to instant death is pretty novel as an IG player.

I can't see any justification for the pyker at all. The need to roll on the table just makes it too unreliable. If you get a bad roll, you've just wasted 70 points. To my mind, the potential benefits aren't worth this.

 Testify wrote:
I can't see any justification for the pyker at all. The need to roll on the table just makes it too unreliable. If you get a bad roll, you've just wasted 70 points. To my mind, the potential benefits aren't worth this.

True, but in that I feel like the Psyker is allot like Marbo. Sometimes due to a bad roll, Marbo blows himself up and does nothing, but conversely a good roll could mean that he just wiped an expensive squad of Crisis Suits or Terminators.

The Primus was the same way in 5th, ed. A good roll for Lightning, meant throwing out 12 shots and potentially wiping an entire squad by himself, a bad roll and he only gets two shots, or worse Perils. With 6th ed, the Primus is still a random element, but now you get a much wider selection of random choices.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the Primus is competitive, or even good, but in my opinion he is fun. The idea of deciding that certain units are too random to be fun in a game utilizing dice seems a bit weird to me.