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hey guys im wanting to add a pair of Vens to my chaos force for AA and anti tank ill take a unit of vets with flamers to clear out objectives but what about a HQ choice a CCsS is kind of wasted because of the orders plus they are not cheap to kit out a primaris psykers powerscan only be used on the guard detachment and the lord commie is meh
Advice peeps ?

the CCS is the best option, even if you cant put orders on too many people, its still the cheapest option.

Take a master of ordinance and you have yourself a basalisk that can hide behind a smaller rock and costs less.

The primus is ok, just ok. You cannot buff your own units unless your are battle brothers, and that kind of sucks.

Suggestions:

1) Wait until the new chaos codex is released before you buy anything. Your army is likely to see significant changes before you can get your IG allies finished, so you might as well wait until you have the new rules to make a more accurate decision.

2) Don't take flamers on vet squads, since it wastes BS 4. Either take melta or plasma (and a Chimera or Vendetta) or don't take vets at all. Fortunately a 4x flamer PCS and a couple meatshield squads/objective holders is still a good choice. Alternatively, cheap infantry squads can go in the Vendettas for a late-game objective grab that won't cost you too much if you lose them when their transports get shot down.

3) Orders are nice, but the main job of a CCS is to hold four melta/plasma and deliver it to something you want killed asap. You don't have to feel at all bad about using the squad's orders on itself to maximize its own firepower. Also, a CCS is a nice candidate for riding a Vendetta, since dropping 4x melta/plasma anywhere on the table is a pretty useful ability to have.

 Exergy wrote:
Take a master of ordinance and you have yourself a basalisk that can hide behind a smaller rock and costs less.

Don't forget that the point cost is so cheap for a reason: you never hit anything. A minimum scatter of 2d6 on a direct "hit" and 3d6 otherwise means that the safest place on the table is the aiming point for the artillery strike, and you need a lot of luck to aim it at some random unit and have it scatter onto something useful. Most of the time you end up paying 30 points to keep your CCS stationary and out of the fight while maybe killing an infantry model or two over the entire game.

how about an OoTF enemy flyers needing 4+ to get in game

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
how about an OoTF enemy flyers needing 4+ to get in game

No. The OotF would be an excellent option if you could choose whether to apply the penalty or not, but there are many cases where your opponent wants their flyers to come in later (for example, waiting until your flyers have arrived so your opponent can get the first shot, or until your opponent's ground forces have killed your quad gun) and you just spent 30 points to help them with it. Since you can't predict whether the reserve penalty will help or hurt your opponent it's best to just leave it out of your list and spend the points on more guns to kill the flyers.

true. The flamers are a personal choice i include a heavy flamer they always make thier points back

 Peregrine wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Take a master of ordinance and you have yourself a basalisk that can hide behind a smaller rock and costs less.

Don't forget that the point cost is so cheap for a reason: you never hit anything. A minimum scatter of 2d6 on a direct "hit" and 3d6 otherwise means that the safest place on the table is the aiming point for the artillery strike, and you need a lot of luck to aim it at some random unit and have it scatter onto something useful. Most of the time you end up paying 30 points to keep your CCS stationary and out of the fight while maybe killing an infantry model or two over the entire game.

agreed but the MoO is another body for the squad and he has that ability. It is great against fortifications, unit pile ups, and any time you dont want to move. It is also surprising how many times 3d6 comes out to be 4-5(approximately the same amount of times it comes out to be 16-17) and if he can see it, it is only 1-2 (or 12-13)

Lately, I have enjoyed fantasizing that with 4 sniper rifles, the CCS can be a character-hunting unit, with the new change to sniper weapons that makes them precision shots on a roll of 6. Camo cloaks in addition to that could make essentially a unit of ratlings that doesn't use up your Elite FOC slot, albeit at a higher expense. However, with the added utility of orders, (i.e. using Move to get into another position, Incoming for an outstanding cover save, etc) it could be worth the cost.

Haven't tested this theory out yet, but it's just something I've been throwing around in my head. You could also throw in the Moo like the others said, and with the longer range of the sniper-rifles there might be some synergy there.

Traditionally though, I used to use the CCS in a Chimera as a melta-boat. Now that meltas are no longer as good, I'd probably switch to plasma, but like stated before it would likely be expensive to kit out a unit like that.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. I'd roll with Snipers and a Moo, and give them Camo Cloaks. Park them in a ruin, and let the hijinks ensue.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
true. The flamers are a personal choice i include a heavy flamer they always make thier points back

They might appear to make their points back, but they're worse at the job than a PCS that costs fewer points. You're paying points for BS 4 on a vet squad, so you really need to put it to good use with melta/plasma.

Also, heavy flamers are a horrible waste of points. Why pay more points than a plasma gun for a heavy flamer that comes free on every vehicle in the codex?

 Exergy wrote:
agreed but the MoO is another body for the squad and he has that ability. It is great against fortifications, unit pile ups, and any time you dont want to move. It is also surprising how many times 3d6 comes out to be 4-5(approximately the same amount of times it comes out to be 16-17) and if he can see it, it is only 1-2 (or 12-13)

Sure it's equally likely to get a 4-5" compared to 16-17" (less than 5%, and exactly equal, not just approximately), but you really don't need 16" of scatter to miss a target. Your chances of scattering low enough to hit the target you're aiming at are pretty disappointing, and beyond that you're stuck hoping to get a good scatter distance AND direction to hit something 12" away. It can happen, obviously, but it's not even close to reliable enough to depend on.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Lately, I have enjoyed fantasizing that with 4 sniper rifles, the CCS can be a character-hunting unit, with the new change to sniper weapons that makes them precision shots on a roll of 6. Camo cloaks in addition to that could make essentially a unit of ratlings that doesn't use up your Elite FOC slot, albeit at a higher expense. However, with the added utility of orders, (i.e. using Move to get into another position, Incoming for an outstanding cover save, etc) it could be worth the cost.

Again you have the problem of paying for BS 4 when BS 3 does the job just as well. With snipers you only care about 6's, so who cares if a 3 is a hit or miss? Put the sniper rifles on a PCS and get the same results for 20 points less. It's still not a very efficient choice, but at least it's better than wasting a CCS.

Now that meltas are no longer as good, I'd probably switch to plasma, but like stated before it would likely be expensive to kit out a unit like that.

Since when did melta stop being good? Plasma is useful, sure, but melta still has a very important place in your army.

What I meant to say is that melta doesn't have the same amount of utility that plasma now has. Melta is still pretty much the same as it was in 5th, but Melta is used against a very limited number of targets. Plasma (with the changes to rapidfire and the vehicle damage rules) have become the swiss-army-knife of special weapons. Light anti-vehicle work or heavy-armor infantry popping are both viable with plasma, where with melta it's an all-or-nothing shot.

Furthermore, the suggestion of snipers in a CCS would add synergy to the choice of a MoO, and at a low cost. Sure, the PCS could take them and use them just as well, but then you wouldn't have the synergy with the pie-plate. The point of the snipers being used in the CCS is so that for a mere 20 points, the rest of the squad isn't standing around while the MoO hits targets. I suppose heavy weapons are of similar cost, so it would be preferable to add a heavy weapon first, and fill out the other two CCS troopers with the snipers. Probably an Autocannon for the most utility. But still, for only 5 points each, I think it would be worth it for those guys to not be sitting around, if you are going to use a MoO. Even if you are not hitting characters, you are adding hits with the possibility of rending onto the target.

The real trick would be getting them set up in an ideal position. Putting them in ruins with a clear lane of fire would be ideal. And pray you don't get a big nasty unit deep striking on top of you. But again, for around 100 points, that would be a pretty cheap platform for some mid-range fire. The survivability this unit has in the shooting phase, if you are placed in ruins (or other 4+ cover) is pretty darn good for the cost.

I feel that if you are not going to go with the melta-boat-chimera use for them, this is a cheaper alternative to plasma, as plasma literally doubles the cost of the unit without adding any more bodies, which for guard is not always the best way to go.

You will have chaos cultists when the new codex is out. You do not need IG allies.

 Lothar wrote:
You will have chaos cultists when the new codex is out. You do not need IG allies.

I don't think cultists can fly a vendetta squadron.

Cultists are rumored to be garbage troops. Something akin to grots.

IG are not garbage troops. They can have chimeras, multiple special weapons, commissars. They unlock options such as manticores and vendettas.

I think cultist are going to be a henchmen like unit, worst, without too many options, but as if you take the cheap option for the henchmen.

CCS is boss, 4 special weapons and the option for a plasma pistol are great. A simple option is giving them plasma guns for everyone (plasma pistol for the commander) and bottling them in a Chimera. Use them to kill MCs and terminators. Another two options are to give them lots of flamers or lots of meltaguns. Even if by some odd chance 4 BS4 meltaguns don't kill a vehicle outright, they will likely chew through all of its hull points in a single volley.

I will have cultists probably about 30 of them as a screen for my noise marines. They have guardsmen stats with a 6+ armour save.

Kevlar wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
You will have chaos cultists when the new codex is out. You do not need IG allies.

I don't think cultists can fly a vendetta squadron.

nor can they man a basilisk battery