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I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

Because they don't require adequate pilots, drivers and fire support, they require THE BEST (HURR SPESS MARHENS).

It's just fluff, gotta make them as over the top as possible.

That, and look at Chapter serfs, usually Marines do have human help, more so on their bases and bigger ships.

Well why do the USMC have their own planes and choppers, it is to have strike packages that do not have to deal with the Navy. It is mostly so they do not have to deal with IG bull.

Yeah, but a Chapter is still committing in excess of 10% of its Marine personnel to pilots/drivers/heavy weapon teams.

You can make the same argument with Sisters of Battle committing troops to Retributor Squads instead of deploying them as Dominions or standard Battle Sisters. I don't understand why you would be wasting that power armor by keeping it out of the fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DiRTWaL wrote:
Well why do the USMC have their own planes and choppers, it is to have strike packages that do not have to deal with the Navy. It is mostly so they do not have to deal with IG bull.

That's fallacious comparison as the real life grunts are not muscle bound hulks that are faster and stronger than any mortal man and equipped with power armor that only they, the Inquisition, and the Adepta Sororitas can use.

Have you ever talked to a marine?

I've been in the Marines, worked with retired/inactive Marines, and I have friends serving. The only one of them that is currently an 0311 is a 6'2" and 160lbs dripping wet. I can pick him up and throw him.

Modern infantry requires endurance, mental fortitude, and combat skills primarily. The standard rifleman is by no means exceptionally strong, fast, or skilled in close combat.

Sorry if I offended you, but the fluff kind of uses an over exaggerated presence of the Space Marines

We don't let Marines get large. They're targets and they don't need raw physical power. In fact, that kind of size slows them down, and I don't want them to be slow. That's why we value the 3 mile run so much more than the rest of their PT test.

What they need is endless endurance. I want a squad of Marines to ruck 20km with packs and rifles, then engage the enemy at that spot 20km away, kill everyone we don't like, load up whatever we can take away from the site, and ruck back. Nobody falls out and everyone is wearing full rattle and ceramics.

You didn't offend me and I understand that the fluff does.

Even in reality a lot of illogical thing occur concerning military strategies, tactics, and organization due to politics and (at least in the US) service rivalries. In a way that is understandable for that to be represented as well in the fluff especially considering that the 40k is created by a British company. The UK has traditionally employed the regimental system and that is reflected in the division of Imperial Guard, Space Marine, and Adepta Sororitas forces.

I just think its nonsensical for the Imperium to not use everything in its ideal role especially as they are in a total war scenario and need every advantage they can acquire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rakeeb wrote:
We don't let Marines get large. They're targets and they don't need raw physical power. In fact, that kind of size slows them down, and I don't want them to be slow. That's why we value the 3 mile run so much more than the rest of their PT test.

What they need is endless endurance. I want a squad of Marines to ruck 20km with packs and rifles, then engage the enemy at that spot 20km away, kill everyone we don't like, load up whatever we can take away from the site, and ruck back. Nobody falls out and everyone is wearing full rattle and ceramics.

Pat Tillman got along just fine at 5'11" and 202lbs of muscle. I had a MCT instructor that was an 0311 and he was bulky as hell. Not a great runner for speed or sprinting, but he humiliated us on rucks and going up hills.

Being strong will benefit you when dealing with combat loads and existence loads, but the combination of poor nutrition, nonexistent strength training, and massive amounts of cardio makes it hard to put any weight on and places a serious hard cap on how strong anyone be. That's a big part of the reason why you'll see massive musclehead POGs while grunts look like normal guys.

I disagree with the value of the three mile run. The fact that the PT test is useless is why the CFT was introduced. No one cares if some 5'6 130lb boy can run fast and do a lot of pullups if a 100lb load will immobilize him.


But this is way off topic.

 Amaya wrote:
I just think its nonsensical for the Imperium to not use everything in its ideal role especially as they are in a total war scenario and need every advantage they can acquire.

If they would think like this they would not burn heretics for just not saying the right prayers before using their working-computer or would try to exterminate the Tau when they offer them peace. The IoM is stuck in their old routines form thousand of years ago and so are the Astartes. In the great Crusade their numbers were so high that it was affordable to give the tanks in the hands of the best and so they do it today the same way as they always did...

 Amaya wrote:
I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

Because:
1. Post Horus Heresy, Space Marines cannot control IG or Navy personel
2. Human soldiers cannot work at the same level as Space Marines, they would be found far below 'adequate' by the Space Marines
3. Space Marines are not wasted in Devestator Squads, as these are actually training squads.
4. Drivers and pilots are not wasted as these are newer techmarines.
5. Putting a Space Marine in charge of a battle tank or fighter is better use or resources than using humans, seeing as a Space Marine has better vision and depth perseption, can work faster, and has access to the tech in his armour, therefore will hit and destroy alot more targets.

A Space Marine is hardly wasted in that positions. Pilots, gunners and drivers dont just sit around. I wouldnt like to loose 10 marines in a thunderbird or Rhino only because the driver/pilot/gunner finally passed out becaue he had to be active for 72h non stop like the Astartes.

What the OP describes as a perfect way to use marines is what we call a Legion. They had full Navies capable of deep space conflict (marine ships are specialized in planetary assaults), they had a full compliment of human soldiers at their disposal to do more mundane tasks. This left the thousands of marines in the Legion free to perform the shock assault role. But it turns out that in an Imperium of countless trillions, that putting the power of a Legion in the hands of one person is... a really bad idea.

So the Imperium split Legions up. The deep space navies broke off and became the Imperial Navy, the human infantry was turned in to the PDF and Imperial Guard and marines were left with their previous role (mobile shock assault). But unfortunately in breaking the organizations up like this, it made them really slow and unwieldy. There were layers of bureaucracy in the way and it would terribly impede marines in being a first response solution. The Imperial Navy lacked the agility to react to emergencies as they were a monolithic organization. The IG was huge and suffered from similar issues. The logistics of these big organizations meant that they simply couldn't react quickly enough for a first response team to work well (and remember this is made worse by the Imperium being a big parody of inefficient bureaucracy ala Brazil; so it is even worse than it could be).

Thus marines need their own fleets (which use a lot of automation to cut down on the need for a crew), their own vehicle crews and their own infrastructure. Now they do have some Chapter Serfs, but keep in mind these guys wont be really common and may not even be really helpful (those that make it far enough in to the process may suffer debilitating mutations if they are not killed outright). And of course they can't just recruit any old rabble to work under them for reasons of loyalty, secrecy and security. So the best solution for them is to simply crew their own vehicles with marines that are combat proven and known quantities. Marines have fast reaction times and most importantly, their ability to work as a team is nearly supernatural. A crew of marines in a tank will work better and faster than any human crew. Just because they aren't out in the open doesn't mean putting a highly-trained, well-oiled team in to a vehicle is a waste. There is something to be said for highly skilled vehicle crews after all. Marine crew has a lot of upsides that you just can't match in a human.

Space Marines are not only stronger and tougher, but have quicker reactions, better eyesight and are more intelligent (generally, bar Creed) than Guardsmen, meaning that they are more capable pilots and drivers. In addition, they can carry stuff like Heavy Bolters and Lascannons by themselves, whereas Guard need teams of 2 or more to operate them, like a WW2 gun emplacement.

 Amaya wrote:
I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

Space Marines in general don't make much sense. If you think about them too much, you realize that the entirety of the Astartes would have a lifespan of a year or two tops, and then they'd all be dead through attrition or so few in number that they'd be unable to sustain themselves, and that even at full strength they're total military value (as a whole for the Astartes) is roughly equal to about 7 or 8 hours of Imperial Guard recruiting.

So, given that silly state of affairs, they might as well be pilots and drivers too...

Have you never considered the fact that they are also better drivers than IG?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have you never considered the fact that they are also better drivers than IG?

This is one point that bears discussing. Marines are stronger, faster, better, etc. than your average Joe, and those increased reaction times would come in handy as a vehicle driver. As for Devastator squads, they're earlier in their training than a tactical Marine. From Lexicanum:

Most Devastator Squads are composed of Space Marines who have recently been promoted from Scout Squads. Though veterans of dozens, even hundreds, of campaigns, service in a Devastator Squad will be their first experience in power armour as part of the main Space Marine army.[img] Those newly-appointed to a Squad, armed only with basic gear, are given the primary duty of providing close support and calling out targets for their more experienced battle-brothers. These Space Marines are armed with the squad's four heavy weapons, an honour earned only after the Marine has proven himself steady and dependable in the heat of battle.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Devastator_Squad#.UEtYdY2PXeI

 Brother SRM wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have you never considered the fact that they are also better drivers than IG?

This is one point that bears discussing. Marines are stronger, faster, better, etc. than your average Joe, and those increased reaction times would come in handy as a vehicle driver. As for Devastator squads, they're earlier in their training than a tactical Marine. From Lexicanum:

Most Devastator Squads are composed of Space Marines who have recently been promoted from Scout Squads. Though veterans of dozens, even hundreds, of campaigns, service in a Devastator Squad will be their first experience in power armour as part of the main Space Marine army.[img] Those newly-appointed to a Squad, armed only with basic gear, are given the primary duty of providing close support and calling out targets for their more experienced battle-brothers. These Space Marines are armed with the squad's four heavy weapons, an honour earned only after the Marine has proven himself steady and dependable in the heat of battle.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Devastator_Squad#.UEtYdY2PXeI

Space Wolves are the opposite. The put their runts and newbies in power armor and throw them into combat. If you're MAN ENOUGH, you get to be a Grey Hunter, and once you're bored (lol, yea right) of the front lines, you get to be a grizzled, beardie scout or a grizzled, beardie long fang.

I think folks are just reading too much into simple, machismo fluff written by nerdy Britts with (assuming here) very little actual military background. If the absurdity makes you then just accept it as silly fun times and move on.

Well, I used to think that Imperial Guard organization was slowed, but then I realized that GW is British and are more familiar with the regimental system then the continental one so its only natural that they would order the Guard into Regiments.

...They actually use Servitors as their transport drivers usually. The models may have marines as crew, but the fluff speaks otherwise. Each chapter has a few thousand aides, whilst the marines handle the actual fighting. =P

Wyrmalla wrote:...They actually use Servitors as their transport drivers usually. The models may have marines as crew, but the fluff speaks otherwise.

The fluff - at least GWs - is pretty clear about who drives the vehicles. A lot of codices have that small segment where it says "crew: 1 Space Marine" or whatever.

A lot of things have been said already, but I'd like to add that a Space Marine might also have a good chance of fighting on when his vehicle is destroyed. IG tank drivers would be rather useless out of their vehicles, but when a Predator breaks down and the crew survives the damage, they can just climb out and join their brethren as foot sloggers.

The Adeptus Terra might also be pissed if the Space Marines would circumvent Codex limitations by creating entire tank legions crewed by normal people when there is no hard cap on that. And lastly, the best is the best, regardless of which position you use them in. Even if Space Marines were not better drivers than IG, the Astartes would still believe it, and that's what really counts. See RL military outfits.

 Amaya wrote:
Yeah, but a Chapter is still committing in excess of 10% of its Marine personnel to pilots/drivers/heavy weapon teams.

You can make the same argument with Sisters of Battle committing troops to Retributor Squads instead of deploying them as Dominions or standard Battle Sisters. I don't understand why you would be wasting that power armor by keeping it out of the fight.

Because they have a manpower cap of 1000 line infantry Marines.

Having Marines piloting the aircraft and crewing vehicles allows them to circumvent that hard cap. Most conventional wisdom says a Marine Chapter is actually closer to 1500 Marines or more. If you look at the vehicles listed in the Ultramarines inventory in C:SM 3E, it takes over 400 Marines to just crew all the vehicles listed.

Aren't marine vehicles piloted by Techmarines? Isn't it just part of their training to become more familiar with the machine spirits of the chapter?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

Space Marines in general don't make much sense. If you think about them too much, you realize that the entirety of the Astartes would have a lifespan of a year or two tops, and then they'd all be dead through attrition or so few in number that they'd be unable to sustain themselves, and that even at full strength they're total military value (as a whole for the Astartes) is roughly equal to about 7 or 8 hours of Imperial Guard recruiting.
.

The tabletop does a relatively poor job depicting actual Space Marine actions, lol. The Space Marines would rarely be involved in the kinds of straightforward, evenly matched, terrain neutral conventional conflicts the tabletop represents.

It's just that it's a tabletop wargame. It needs to be balanced and "fair". The rules exist to sell models, not to create a 100% accurate depiction of the universe.

Read Fear to Tread and you might get some insight as to why they use Space Marines to dirve/pilot their equipment now.

Better reflexes and situational awareness ya having him on the field might help a little bit but a marine veering through enemy fire to take out enemy command helps a lot more.
Besides even space marines were once human (still are i suppose ) and every one has something there better at then others so the pilot is probably better trained for piloting then ground combat not that they cant rip some one in half with the best of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orblivion wrote:
Read Fear to Tread and you might get some insight as to why they use Space Marines to dirve/pilot their equipment now.

Spoiler:

The vast majority of unmodified humans in the Blood Angel fleet lost their minds when faced with the daemon horde. They were committing suicide by the hundreds, and in one instance a human stormbird pilot kills his copilot and then tries to kill himself and the stormbird crashes. The human admiral of the fleet even sets Sanguinius' flagship on a collision course with the planet.

or that

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
I don't understand why Marines are used as pilots or drivers at all. Yes, I know it is so chapters can be largely autonomous, but even in the fluff their is only so much a single Chapter's full complement can do before they require allies. Virtually all major conflicts consist of multiple detachments of Imperial forces coming predominantly from the Imperial Guard and Space Marines.

It seems to me that using an elite killing machine that can deal and sustain more damage than any guardsman on foot as a pilot or driver is a waste of resources. The same is true for using Marines in Heavy Weapons squads. The Imperial Guard has personnel resources to spare, Marines do not. Why utilize Marines as anything other than shock infantry when the Imperial Guard can supply adequate pilots, drivers, and fire support?

Space Marines in general don't make much sense. If you think about them too much, you realize that the entirety of the Astartes would have a lifespan of a year or two tops, and then they'd all be dead through attrition or so few in number that they'd be unable to sustain themselves, and that even at full strength they're total military value (as a whole for the Astartes) is roughly equal to about 7 or 8 hours of Imperial Guard recruiting.
.

The tabletop does a relatively poor job depicting actual Space Marine actions, lol. The Space Marines would rarely be involved in the kinds of straightforward, evenly matched, terrain neutral conventional conflicts the tabletop represents.

It's just that it's a tabletop wargame. It needs to be balanced and "fair". The rules exist to sell models, not to create a 100% accurate depiction of the universe.

Oh I totally understand that (even though half the battles the SM's are portrayed in are pitched battles of attrition ), even then though, on a galactic scale, there just aren't enough Space Marines to make a noticeable difference in the fortunes of the Imperium when your standing army has billions of regiments under arms (meaning likely trillions or tens of trillions of "mundane" soldiers) and you're fighting on fronts measured over thousands of light years

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Because they have a manpower cap of 1000 line infantry Marines.

Having Marines piloting the aircraft and crewing vehicles allows them to circumvent that hard cap. Most conventional wisdom says a Marine Chapter is actually closer to 1500 Marines or more. If you look at the vehicles listed in the Ultramarines inventory in C:SM 3E, it takes over 400 Marines to just crew all the vehicles listed.

And imo it's when chapter is understrength/too Codex servitors are used...or when pilot position is outright expandable one. Also there's matter of honour like in Kraken novella (Wolf was on single quest, so there were servitors, not serfs, on his starship), or too small detachment (like in last GG book)...or , in some positions or chapters, as a matter of tradition - if servitors were good enough for original Legion, why change things?
I doubt that even big G's Codex delves much in this area except how to best use either.

SM's as pilots makes little sense, except perhaps in the air where their superior reflexes can kick in. It's more or less so they look cool in a painted army by GW, so naturally this translates into fluff.

But also Space Marines in general operate an obscenely low amount of vehicles. The entire Ultramarines chapter has like 25 Predators, 8 Land Raiders, 9 Whirlwinds, 8 vindicators, and 31 Thunderhawks. It doesn't consume very much manpower

Space Marine Pilots/Drivers would be better than most if not all other available Imperial Pilots/Drivers.

Super enhanced reflexes, superior battlefield knowledge, far more survivable and reliable. Not afraid to place himself or the vehicle at risk.

Most fluff books reference crashes of thunderhawks, drop pods, rhinos etc, and generally if it is a space marine driver the bulk of them survive, most books even reference that had it been a normal human they wouldn't have survived.

Also as far as I'm aware, more typically drivers/pilots are new recruits to the rank of astartes or in some chapters they are typically intiaties, scouts or trainees. (whatever your relevant chapter calls them.)