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Bausk wrote:
.....Page 46 under the section detailing what Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus effects in game are. I will repost it again for you;

'The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as being equiped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat'

As you can see the combination of both these weapons counts as a single weapon called a Daemon Weapon. It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee. However the +1 is replaced by a X2S and the weapon gains the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls as stated in the chaos codex as said Daemon Weapon has its profile altered by the special rules of 'Drach'Nyen and the Talon of Horus'.

The mistake that you continue to make is in Bold.

No where does the CSM codex state that Abby's weapon use profile "X."
You are adding information that simply is not there.

The Codex says that his weapons "count as" a Daemon Weapon, true. But a daemon weapon has been redefined by the Codex FAQ.

A daemon weapon now, just gives the following:
Two Handed
Power Weapon
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

The profile that you quoted is for a specific weapon being wielded by a specific model (Chaos Lord with no Marks of Chaos) and it is not applicable to Abby.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee.

Find me where the blanket rule for Daemon Weapon says this. This exactly, for all daemon weapons. If you can fine me the rule that says every daemon weapon gets this, then I and everyone else here will concede the argument. Give you another hint, it dosent exist.


Again you are both wrong, and giving bad arguments. Counts as a serpents bite,

Not, counts as a serpents bite with a pink paintjob that does ___ in addition to its normal rules
Or a green one that does ____ in addition to its normal rules.

There is no example that is similar to daemon weapons because nothing changes its rules like they do. There is no example you can provide that is even close to a daemon weapon because there is no wargear like a daemon weapon. No unit gets a "Mark" that changes the way its wargear works but chaos marines.

FAQ Daemon weapons; Daemon weapon; Range:- S: +1S AP:2 Type: Melee, Two handed, Daemon weapon. This is the base rule for a Daemon weapon. It overwrites the codex which overwrites the the BRB. A Daemon Weapon is not a power weapon, no where in the FAQ is it stated to be a power weapon. All entries in the FAQ indicate a profile listing seperate to the codex and seperate to the power weapon listings. As the rule for Drach'Nyen and the Talon of Horus clearly states they count as a Daemon Weapon, they count as a Daemon Weapon.

The example with Liltith was also to point out she is equiped with Wych gear and weaponry, even though she herself is not a wych, nor is she a Succubus. Much as Abaddon is not a Chaos Lord or marked in the same manner as normal lords. These factors have no bearing on what they are counted to be equiped withas they just have these items because they can. The Rule states they are counted as having the weapons and items. Not that they have them and they need to prove that they are allowed to have them in the same manner lesser models have to.


Oh and FYI

The codex entry for Daemon Weapons only applies to The MoT weapon as it does not state it counts as a Daemon Weapon, its not incorperated into the latest FAQs and so it uses the latest update of its rules it counts as a power weapon, it has additional rules, it is AP 3. Its profile is thus: Range:- S: user AP: 3 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, melee and in addition to that it may be used in the shooting phase with the profile listed under Deathscreamer on page 93 in the Chaos Codex.

 Bausk wrote:
FAQ Daemon weapons; Daemon weapon; Range:- S: +1S AP:2 Type: Melee, Two handed, Daemon weapon. This is the base rule for a Daemon weapon.

Its like Im talking to a wall.

Let me spell this out very plainly, because I'm begining to get irritated shooting down the same argument over and over again.

The blanket rule for a daemon weapon is as follows: 1d6 extra attacks, if you roll a 1 you take a wound with no armor saves and may not make an attack, 2 handed, power weapon.

The rule for a daemon weapon for a LORD, with NO MARK, (neither of which does abbadon fulfill) is, AP2, +1 strength, in addition to any other rule.

Abbadon is not a chaos lord via his rules. Abbadon has marks, via his rules. He is not an unmarked lord so his wepaon is not AP2. He has his own weapon that is not covered in the FAQ, so it is AP3, in addition to its own rules. If you post the same argument again, I will alert a mod because you are not following the tenets of YMDC.

You obviously need to re-read the Codex. Do not make another post on this thread until you read the relevent sections of abaddons rules and the relevant FAQ.

40k-noob wrote:

Bausk wrote:
.....Page 46 under the section detailing what Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus effects in game are. I will repost it again for you;

'The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as being equiped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat'

As you can see the combination of both these weapons counts as a single weapon called a Daemon Weapon. It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee. However the +1 is replaced by a X2S and the weapon gains the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls as stated in the chaos codex as said Daemon Weapon has its profile altered by the special rules of 'Drach'Nyen and the Talon of Horus'.

The mistake that you continue to make is in Bold.

No where does the CSM codex state that Abby's weapon use profile "X."
You are adding information that simply is not there.

The Codex says that his weapons "count as" a Daemon Weapon, true. But a daemon weapon has been redefined by the Codex FAQ.

A daemon weapon now, just gives the following:
Two Handed
Power Weapon
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

The profile that you quoted is for a specific weapon being wielded by a specific model (Chaos Lord with no Marks of Chaos) and it is not applicable to Abby.

The FAQ does not state that for the USR Daemon weapon. It only states:

'This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.'

This is the mistake you are making. You are confusing the weapon with the USR. The codex listing is now obsolete for every variation but the MoT for the reasons I listed above. Abaddon Counts as the weapon using its profile. much as every other counts as weapon example I have listed does. It even further states that it initially has +1S but is replaced by a X2S. No where in the FAQ does it say that it is a power weapon. why? because its no longer a power weapon, its a Daemon Weapon. And their rules and profiles are listed in the same FAQ funnily enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
FAQ Daemon weapons; Daemon weapon; Range:- S: +1S AP:2 Type: Melee, Two handed, Daemon weapon. This is the base rule for a Daemon weapon.

Its like Im talking to a wall.

Let me spell this out very plainly, because I'm begining to get irritated shooting down the same argument over and over again.

The blanket rule for a daemon weapon is as follows: 1d6 extra attacks, if you roll a 1 you take a wound with no armor saves and may not make an attack, 2 handed, power weapon.

The rule for a daemon weapon for a LORD, with NO MARK, (neither of which does abbadon fulfill) is, AP2, +1 strength, in addition to any other rule.

Abbadon is not a chaos lord via his rules. Abbadon has marks, via his rules. He is not an unmarked lord so his wepaon is not AP2. He has his own weapon that is not covered in the FAQ, so it is AP3, in addition to its own rules. If you post the same argument again, I will alert a mod because you are not following the tenets of YMDC.

You obviously need to re-read the Codex. Do not make another post on this thread until you read the relevent sections of abaddons rules and the relevant FAQ.

I disagree with of how to interpret the RAW. Ive stated everything as it is written in the codex, the FAQ and offered countless example of the interpretation. I have stated why the codex entry for Daemon weapons no longer applies to anything but the MoT Deathscreamer (any further mention of daemon weapons excludes the Deathscreamer).

The FAQ supersedes the codex entry. They no longer count as power weapons. As it Counts as a Daemon weapon with a +1S modifier, both facts apply to the first 'Daemon weapons; Daemon weapon' entry in the FAQ. As it 'Counts As' this weapon Abaddon does not need to fulfill the criteria so it is irrelevant if he is or is not a lord that has or has not been marked.

On an related note, in the days of second ed Drach'Nyen only required Abaddon to hit a model. then it was automatically removed from play as it cut reality, literally. And We see in the leaked picture from what can presumed to be 6th Drach'Nyen is AP2. Now I don't know about you but I would just assume the lads at GW know how to make a close combat monster that should be feared by all. And given everything I've said up to this point wouldn't you presume that perhaps the most deadly pair of close combat weapons in the galaxy would have to be at least AP2?

Presumptions aside, even before 6th ed Abaddons counts as Daemon Weapon still counted as the unmarked lord variation. It never stopped counting as this variation. People just got stuck on the idea that the Don was nerfed (as was all Daemon weapons) to AP3 because of the BRB with no FAQ fixes. Now its fixed and people are trying desperately to keep him in a nerfed state. Of course no one questioned which daemon weapon it counted as in 5th ed. Funny.

Because all power weapons were AP2. Its that simple. Now that the AP of power weapons is different, we need more informaiton than we previously did.

What happened in 2nd or 3rd or 5th dosent matter. What matters is what happens now, and what happens now is that he wields a special daemon weapon with its own special rules.

This makes it AP3.

 Bausk wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

Bausk wrote:
.....Page 46 under the section detailing what Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus effects in game are. I will repost it again for you;

'The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as being equiped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat'

As you can see the combination of both these weapons counts as a single weapon called a Daemon Weapon. It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee. However the +1 is replaced by a X2S and the weapon gains the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls as stated in the chaos codex as said Daemon Weapon has its profile altered by the special rules of 'Drach'Nyen and the Talon of Horus'.

The mistake that you continue to make is in Bold.

No where does the CSM codex state that Abby's weapon use profile "X."
You are adding information that simply is not there.

The Codex says that his weapons "count as" a Daemon Weapon, true. But a daemon weapon has been redefined by the Codex FAQ.

A daemon weapon now, just gives the following:
Two Handed
Power Weapon
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

The profile that you quoted is for a specific weapon being wielded by a specific model (Chaos Lord with no Marks of Chaos) and it is not applicable to Abby.

The FAQ does not state that for the USR Daemon weapon. It only states:

'This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.'

This is the mistake you are making. You are confusing the weapon with the USR. The codex listing is now obsolete for every variation but the MoT for the reasons I listed above. Abaddon Counts as the weapon using its profile. much as every other counts as weapon example I have listed does. It even further states that it initially has +1S but is replaced by a X2S. No where in the FAQ does it say that it is a power weapon. why? because its no longer a power weapon, its a Daemon Weapon. And their rules and profiles are listed in the same FAQ funnily enough.

I realize that I added "Daemon Weapon:" there but lets be real, It is a USR now.

However you are mistaken in thinking the FAQ makes the codex entry obsolete. The FAQ updates or replaces only what it states in the FAQ. Please re-read the FAQ and you will notice that it only updates certain sections of page 93 of the Codex. It does not remove the Power Weapon statement under the Daemon Weapon section. As of now a Daemon Weapon is as follows:

Chaos Space Marines Codex wrote:
A Daemon Weapon:
- Two Handed
- Power Weapon
-This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.
- Has an additional ability that varies depending on the Mark given to the bearer, as described below.

Then the FAQ comes into play and changes the sections that follow, except for the Tzeentch Mark section

As has been pointed out prior and you have yet to provide any evidence to counter.

Abby is not a Chaos Lord as defined by his Codex
Abby has all the Marks of Chaos according to his Codex Entry.

Thus the profile that you quoted is not applicable to Abby.

Abby's weapon is an "unusual power weapon" which makes is AP3 plus 2x his strength with re-roll failed wounds until the new Codex comes out.

As above.

You have no permission to use the Entry for a Daemon weapon (lors with no mark of chaos) because Abaddon is

Not
A
Chaos
Lord
with
No
Mark

The profile for a chaos lord with no mark is +1S, Ap2. There is no entry for Abaddon, as he is not a Chaos Lord with No Mark

In short, Bausk, you are making the same discredited argument given throughout this thread, exactly as if you hadnt read it. You have no permission to use the Daemon weapon entry for lords with no mark, because Abaddon does not fit the criteria. Your continued misreading f the rule does not make yours "RAW"

Lets do this the easiest way I can think of.

Step 1- Are the rules for Drach different, in any way, shape or form, from the unmarked chaos lord Daemon Weapon?

If you answered yes, go to step 2, if you answered no, re-read your codex and then return to step 1.

Step 2- Does it list anywhere in Abbadon's entry that Drach is Ap2?
If you answered yes, re-reda your codex and then return to step 2. If you answered no go to step 3.

Step 3- does it say in the FAQ that Drach specifically is AP2? If you said no, then proceed to the answer step. If you said yes, re-read your FAQ

Answer step- You are not told, in any way, that the Daemon weapon specific to Abbadon is AP2, so we must fall back on the Daemon Weapon blanket rule for the AP value. Listed for the ap value of the daemon weapon blanket rule is "Power Weapon". This Power Weapon has other traits associated with it, making ti unusual, so we must follow the rule for an unusual power weapon. It is AP3 as per unusual power weapon rule.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Because all power weapons were AP2. Its that simple. Now that the AP of power weapons is different, we need more informaiton than we previously did.

What happened in 2nd or 3rd or 5th dosent matter. What matters is what happens now, and what happens now is that he wields a special daemon weapon with its own special rules.

This makes it AP3.

According the the previous FAQ yes the weapon Abaddon used was AP3. According to the the latest FAQ no. I've stated why, stated page numbers, rules, citations, examples, clarifications, outright stated the rules verbatim and even told you point blank told you that Abaddon has used that particular Daemon Weapon from when that codex was written. Yet you still insist you are right in spite of being shown you are using an outdated or plain wrong interpretation. You offer only irrelevant points about his status, marks or claim that it is a power weapon with the Daemon Weapon USR therefore counting as a unusual power weapon (which is what it [The unmarked Daemon Weapon] was before the latest FAQ).

I find it interesting that you focused on my side point, that was more a tid bit of information, rather than the statement of facts and rules. Then turn around an just declare it must be AP3.

Another side point, power weapons ignored armour in 5th ed, they did not have an AP.

Bausk - no, you showed rules that were irrelevant, as you made a critical flaw in logic

You are stating that all daemon weapons follow the "no mark" lord stats. Which is wrong

You have given the wrong rules consistently, meaning you have the wrong answer still.

Abby is, currently, AP3. RAW

I focused on that tifbit becuase that was the only thing even remotly relevant. I dont care what examples and exceptions the FAQ gave you. Unless it had Abbadons name in it or Drachnyen specifically, the point is moot because they are different weapons.

End of story.

There is no argument left to be had here.

Abbadons weapon is DIFFERENT.
Different = not the same.
Different weapons = different rules.

Its not that hard of a concept to grasp.

On that note, bowing out of here. It is a pointless argument as, in 2 weeks, the whole codex is different

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above.

You have no permission to use the Entry for a Daemon weapon (lors with no mark of chaos) because Abaddon is

Not
A
Chaos
Lord
with
No
Mark

The profile for a chaos lord with no mark is +1S, Ap2. There is no entry for Abaddon, as he is not a Chaos Lord with No Mark

In short, Bausk, you are making the same discredited argument given throughout this thread, exactly as if you hadnt read it. You have no permission to use the Daemon weapon entry for lords with no mark, because Abaddon does not fit the criteria. Your continued misreading f the rule does not make yours "RAW"

He
does
not
need
to
fulfill
that
criteria

It is a moot point, the weapon counts as (and always has) the unmarked daemon weapon. He had it in5th and he has it in 6th. Nothings changed but people clinging to the hope that they can keep Abaddon in the preFAQ state.

Lets look at pages 46 and 93 and take everything into context that's written and stated here and in the FAQ.

Lets start on page 93...How many Daemon weapons can you see listed...if you answer more or less than 5 then math may not be your strong suit. There is the Daemon weapon and one for each Mark.

Look at the FAQ, just there under the unmarked lords Daemon weapon...what is that? Why its the USR for what a Daemon weapon grants of course. Bringing this weapon into the 6th edition and out of unusual power weapon limbo. Whats this, it doesn't state anything about being a power weapon? no, it no longer counts as a power weapon at all. Nor does it +1 to the users S.

Lets cross reference this with page 93 just to be sure the DW SR didn't confer a +1S either...nope. The 5th ed rendition did not +1to the users S either.

Now lets look at abaddons rules for Drach'nyen and the talon of Horus..Hmm it says they, when combined, count as a Daemon weapon. And further explains that its +1S is altered....but wait...neither Daemon weapon SR stated it has a +1S...lets look at page 93 to find the source of this +1S and cross reference it with the FAQ to see what Daemon Weapon they are talking about.

Why look its the Daemon weapon called with a profile name 'Daemon weapon'. In both the 5th ed and 6th ed it is the only Daemon weapon that confers a +1S bonus. But I guess Abaddons is just a generic Daemon weapon...which would be which of the 5 base daemon weapons again?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I focused on that tifbit becuase that was the only thing even remotly relevant. I dont care what examples and exceptions the FAQ gave you. Unless it had Abbadons name in it or Drachnyen specifically, the point is moot because they are different weapons.

End of story.

There is no argument left to be had here.

Abbadons weapon is DIFFERENT.
Different = not the same.
Different weapons = different rules.

Its not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Lets look at the only other Unique character that has a Daemon weapon. Typhus. His manreaper originally stated it was a daemon weapon and followed all the rules for them, in addition to that it was also a force weapon. Now Typhus is also not technicly a lord. and even after 6th ed dropped with the first round of FAQs eveyong assumed (as it was previously FAQ'd) his Manreaper followed the rules for a Plague bringer with the additional change that it was also a force weapon (this sounds like something in this forum....Thats right The serpents bite, base weapon that has alteration) that he could always activate in addition to using a power in the same turn. No one argued that typhus is not a lord so he shouldn't get the plague bringer rule. Heck no ones even argued that as they are both 'not lords' they shouldn't have a daemon weapon as its something only lords get access to (also sounding like a post in this forum...yes thats right Lillith isnt a wych but has wych gear anyway). Let alone disputing that he shouldn't get the plague bringer rule because its different because it is also a force weapon. The fact they used Typhus' mark in the first place was because it made sense to use nurgles' Daemon weapon.

As the don has all marks it made sens to give him the unmarked version, but they couldn't because he is marked. so they bypass that by giving him unique weapons that count as the daemon weapon. Then spruce it up a bit to make it more like the weapons its representing.

But your likly to say the manreaper was FAQ'd at which point I say well that because it had to be. Then you'll say then why didn't they FAQ Drach'Nyen and the talon of Horus. And I'll say because they didn't need to, its rules are written plainly on page 46 of the chaos codex and the weapon in counts as is listed in the FAQ already. Then you'll disagree citing BRB page 61, refering to the previous FAQ and blindly stating he is not a lord and he has a a mark. Which I've pointed out numerous times is irrelevant for many reasons including there are only 5 daemon weapons, well 6 if you include the manreaper but Abaddon does not have that one for sure. And it can't be the marked 4 so that leaves us with the last one that is the unmarked version (which he had in 5th ed) and fits the Drach'Nyen And Talon of Horus SR nicely as it is also the only DW with +1S and is actually called a Daemon weapon in its profile.

Then the cycle starts again....

Bausk wrote:
He
does
not
need
to
fulfill
that
criteria

Okie Dokie

Meh... Rules... Who needs them...

I agree. At this point we are giving him rules and he is plugging his ears and saying "Nuh-Uh"

Bausk - no, no he didnt. He had a counts as daemon weapon, not the one for a lord with no mark. As he isnt a chaos lord with no mark.

Have fun for two weeks until this is fixed

40k-noob wrote:

Bausk wrote:
He
does
not
need
to
fulfill
that
criteria

Okie Dokie

Meh... Rules... Who needs them...

The rules are the bit that followed that part, I know its a bit of reading but its rather informative...much like the rule book, codex and FAQ.I find they are also helpful for playing the game right rather than just assuming something is true.
.
So which of the 5 Daemon weapons on page 93 is he counted as being armed with again?

Seeing as we are sticking to the rules and all I may have to remind you that it only has +D6 attacks so the blood feeders out for sure and it states it is replacing a +1S bonus form somewhere. Also, there is only one that is actually called a Daemon Weapon in its profile. This may narrow down the options some....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Bausk - no, no he didnt. He had a counts as daemon weapon, not the one for a lord with no mark. As he isnt a chaos lord with no mark.

Have fun for two weeks until this is fixed

Well he actually did, seeing as all Daemon weapons had to and still have to fall under one of the 5 (manreaper no longer included) Daemon weapons.

Wrong.

Abaddon is not a CHaos lord. You keep ignoring this as you are unable to counter that with actual rules.

It does not HAVE to fall under anything. Its a counts as blanket rule daemon weapon with special traits. Seriously, we are beating a dead horse with a Daemon Weapon here. Can we get a mod to lock this?

They better make this clear in the new codex... hopefully its clearly AP3, I can't stand Abby.

From what I've heard all daemon weapons are going Ap2, and if you roll a 1 on the d6 you still get your bsae attacks.

Yup, rolling a 1 only reduces yous WS to 1 and makes you a wound, which is a lot better than the actual daemon weapon, and yes abaddon will have AP2 & AP3, depending on which weapons he uses Daemon Weapon/Talon

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wrong.

Abaddon is not a CHaos lord. You keep ignoring this as you are unable to counter that with actual rules.

I don't deny that claim, never have. But by that logic as a model that isn't a chaos lord he "shouldn't" have a Daemon weapon at all. And if it just counts as a Daemon weapon as in the base rule then its AP-, Redundantly got a +1S from nowhere (that the weapon gets normally) at all only to replace it with X2S instead and gain the ability to re-roll all failed To wound rolls. Bravo, that nerfs him even more and makes no sense what so ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It does not HAVE to fall under anything. Its a counts as blanket rule daemon weapon with special traits. Seriously, we are beating a dead horse with a Daemon Weapon here. Can we get a mod to lock this?

The 'blanket rule' (thats the USR that's in the FAQ btw) doesn't not confer a +1S bonus, nor did the previous version. The 'Blanket rule' is the what all daemon weapons get and must have as it is stated in the previous rendintionas the have the following additional effects as described for each mark:: +1S, an additional D6 attacks, poison 4+, instant death or a ranged profile. Further more this 'blanket rule' was FAQ'd, as I've pointed out, to only grant +D6 Attacks. No power weapon, no two handed weapon, no other rules what so ever. The reason for this is it is now a USR like armour bane or concussive.


On that point not one of you address the fact that the base pre-modified daemon weapon Abaddons weapons count as has a +1S bonus before its replaced with a X2S (i'nstead of the normal +1S'). You all just say 'oh, hes not a lord and he has a mark so he must not the only Daemon weapon that grants a +1S bonus.'

No, you stated it was irrelevant. However as you have shown yourself, once you actually *gasp* follow the rules you arrive at WHY it is important - currently Abby is AP3, as they have not replaced all of the daemon weapon rules from the codex, just yet. It is why Tzeentch guns are AP3 - they are an unusual power weapon. Same as Abby

What we are addressing is that "instead of" has no actual rules bearing, yet you are claiming it as the only actual rules basis for your argument. It is your unsupported leap that you refuse to see.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, you stated it was irrelevant. However as you have shown yourself, once you actually *gasp* follow the rules you arrive at WHY it is important - currently Abby is AP3, as they have not replaced all of the daemon weapon rules from the codex, just yet. It is why Tzeentch guns are AP3 - they are an unusual power weapon. Same as Abby

What we are addressing is that "instead of" has no actual rules bearing, yet you are claiming it as the only actual rules basis for your argument. It is your unsupported leap that you refuse to see.

So let me get this straight. You claim that Abaddon is not a lord, has at least one mark of chaos as described on page 25 of the chaos codex.

Even though its not said he is or is not a lord. Which is why I don't deny it, I do however doubt it as all indications point to him being a lord. I also see it as irrelevant as the weapon is granted to him by name and statistics relevant to 5th ed. Which carries over to 6th. Who has a rule backing their statement up again? Where does it say Abaddon is anything but a lord of chaos again?

Even though page 25 describes, clearly I might add, that; 'Most chaos space marines worship Chaos in all its glory, which means they dedicate their lives to all four greater powers of chaos with equal fervour.' This is known by some as being undivided and in this instance as being 'Unmarked' As abaddon worships all of them equally he is undivided/unmarked under this definition.

Continued page 25: 'If a model is given the Mark of one of four greater powers of chaos, this means the warrior has been claimed as its own by one of the four, and given special powers in return.' This in known as being Dedicated or marked. As abaddon is not specificly stated to have any mark in his wargear, just a special a unique special rule that confers the bonuses of all four marks and EW. Its description says he melded all four marks after attaining them in turn, meaning at the time of his printing he does not have those marks, just the bonuses. Further compounded by the statement that he did not become the pawn of any like those who normally attain marks But as I addressed before, its irrelevant as the daemon weapon is given to him by name and statistics under a special rule.

I have demonstrated that it counts a Daemon Weapons; Daemon Weapon repeatedly with rules. You however have used previous FAQs and rules that are not applicable for the many reasons I have gone over numerous times. By your own, and two other supporters,statements you admit it follows the rules for daemon weapons in the codex. Yet ignore the last bullet point of daemon weapons; 'Has an additional ability that varies depending on the mark given to the barer, as described below.'. Which is a clear indication that even a weapon that counts as a Daemon weapon before marks are considered must have one of the 5 additional rules listed and under the FAQ this means it must be one of only 5 daemon weapons available.

As you have not proven with a rules statement that Abadddon is not a lord, at this point its redundant as pointed out above and given that Typhus is stated to be a Psyker (not a lord) and was given the plague bringer rule in addition to the force weapon rule, making the issue with the bracketed 'Lord' statement moot by precedent. Nor have you proven with a rule that he is marked as described under page 25 or the MoCA, point of fact I just proved with the MoCA that he is not marked as it is not even wargear like other marks, he just has a special rule that is called a 'Mark' that grants bonuses similar to all four actual marks and grants EW.

There is no leaps, only facts in the rules that you and two others are ignoring. You and other have misquoted rules many times which is why I have taken to writing them out and addressing the rule as it is written right in front of everyone and yet you still claim that others an I are 'leaping' when we quote rules. Yet you fail to see that it is you who is leaping to a conclusion based on no rule (abaddon is not listed as a lord so he must not be a lord) or from a misinterpretation of wargears rules and unique character specific special rules.

Argument has gone circular and is not progressing. Locking.

Thankfully the new codex comes out soon. If you're using Abaddon in the meantime, agree with your opponent or ask the tournament organizer.