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Okay, okay - I'm still a bit confused here. Most people seemed to have grasped this quickly, so I'm feeling a but stupid for being to short to catch it.

pre FAQ LoS worked as such:

Target unit had same save. Roll all saves. Then allocate wounds. When allocating wounds to character, roll LoS to see if wound instead goes elsewhere. Saves already taken prior, so these wounds are automatic.

Model has unique saves. Allocate wounds to model, roll LoS, THEN take saves against failed LoS rolls.

Either way, you're rolling LoS directly after the wound is allocated, saved or not.

Post FAQ, with the Unsaved Wounds piece removed, Unique Saves seems to work the same, but I'm unsure how this interacts with a unit with the same saves, not to mention one that has a character in it. Clearly I'm missing something obvious? Reading the threads has just confused me further. I guess it's too early in the day right now...

Is it effectively exactly the same, just clarified so that confused (and oppertunistic) players don't think that you can LoS after failing an armour save on a character?

The change is that you have to assign successful Look Out Sir! reallocations to the closest model instead of a model of your choice within 6". The order of Look Out Sir! and taking saves depending on mixed saves or not is unchanged.

 Redemption wrote:
The change is that you have to assign successful Look Out Sir! reallocations to the closest model instead of a model of your choice within 6". The order of Look Out Sir! and taking saves depending on mixed saves or not is unchanged.

Knew about that first bit. Still have a feeling that removing the "unsaved wounds" aspect changes it a bit - but it may be the fear of "surprise rule!" talking.

I think they tried to make it clearer - which it may do for a first time reader, but may raise doubts in someone who had to struggle through the first set of rules. There is nothing there which changes the operation or timing of the LOS rules, aside from the specification of which model must take the hit.

Whilst this does remove the rather cinematic "model charges 6" to take a bullet for his captain" it does make it a bit more tactical if the HW guy is standing next to the captain, if the bullet doesn't get the captain the HW guy will be the one that dies.

 Kharrak wrote:

Post FAQ, with the Unsaved Wounds piece removed, Unique Saves seems to work the same, but I'm unsure how this interacts with a unit with the same saves, not to mention one that has a character in it. Clearly I'm missing something obvious? Reading the threads has just confused me further. I guess it's too early in the day right now...

If there's a character in the unit it's treated as a mixed save unit regardless of the actual saves.

The part you're missing, is that if a same-save unit contains a character, you treat it as a mixed-save unit.
So now LOS! Rolls will always be before armour saves (hence removing the "unsaved wounds" part).

"Page 15 – Shooting Phase, Mixed Saves
Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”. Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains several different saving throws, or at least one character...”"

 grendel083 wrote:
The part you're missing, is that if a same-save unit contains a character, you treat it as a mixed-save unit.
So now LOS! Rolls will always be before armour saves (hence removing the "unsaved wounds" part).

"Page 15 – Shooting Phase, Mixed Saves
Change subheader to “Mixed Saves and Characters”. Change the first sentence to read “If the target unit contains several different saving throws, or at least one character...”"

This!!

It means roll your saves on groups with multi-wound characters at the lead one at a time.

 daedalus-templarius wrote:
It means roll your saves on groups with multi-wound characters at the lead one at a time.

Any character. A 1 wound character is still a character.

It was mainly done to end the fun with multi wound models.

Before you could assign 1 wound to every model within 6" and possible not lose a single model in that unit.

Now, The closest model gets assigned the wounds til he dies, then start rolling for the next closest model.

Is it just me, or is all the excellent advances in wound allocation 6th ed proposes negated by this LOS! bs?

Anyone house-ruling this out?

Seems so tedious and stupid to have 8 SM jump in front of my librarian one-by-one taking plasma shots... Really i should have just not lead with my librarian in the first place!

PittedPanda wrote:
Is it just me, or is all the excellent advances in wound allocation 6th ed proposes negated by this LOS! bs?

Anyone house-ruling this out?

Seems so tedious and stupid to have 8 SM jump in front of my librarian one-by-one taking plasma shots... Really i should have just not lead with my librarian in the first place!

Personally, I think LoS! should be changed so that only 1 model can try and jump in front of "sir!"; after that "sir" eats it.

Regardless, the FAQ is much better than the previous 6" crap.

Much agreed clively. I'll play the rules exactly as the FAQ and rules state until I can play 1000pts under 2hrs and then I'll probably take this as a house rule.

Same as in the other thread we both posted on: I'll probably house rule characters and snipers can asign hits to LOSable models in building firepoints.

clively wrote:

Personally, I think LoS! should be changed so that only 1 model can try and jump in front of "sir!"; after that "sir" eats it.

I agree, I mean, not everyone in the squad is going to like their Captain enough to want to take a bullet for them.

It would make things worse but you could make them take a LD test to determine whether or not the the model is happy with their Captains performance or just wants an easy promotion

I played a tournament with this FAQ and it's horrible. Most of the time we agree to use previous wound allocation.

The way it was written was ok. With same armour you roll saves and afterward LOS if any wound goes to the character. Now it means rolling one LOS and one wound each time for nearly every unit in warhammer. It seems that they weren't unable to explain their own rule and make that change.

12 wounds on a 2+ save unit means 12 LOS rolls and 12 rolls saves, before, it was only one roll of 12 dices and 2 rolls of LOS

Doing it the 'old way' will lead to the exact same results almost every time.

There are ways, however, to speed up the new way also. There is really no reason to roll it one at a time.

iT MEANS YOU TAKE los BEFORE ANY SAVES HAVE BEEN MADE EVEN IF THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. OOPS rEMOVING THE UNSAVED WORDING FROM THE TEXT MEANS YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO to los before you try a saving throw.

Lungpickle wrote:
iT MEANS YOU TAKE los BEFORE ANY SAVES HAVE BEEN MADE EVEN IF THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. OOPS rEMOVING THE UNSAVED WORDING FROM THE TEXT MEANS YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO to los before you try a saving throw.

Seriously, fix your caps lock please. Saying "Oops" isn't really an excuse.
But you're right about how the rules work.

So, I think for various cases these might be quick ways to resolve. Things only slow down when you have a character with a worse save than the rest of the unit, and slightly when there is more than one character in the unit:

All same save/ Character has better save:

S = shooter

T = trooper
T
T
T
C = Character
T
T
T

1) Roll saves for first 4 troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
2) LoS all remaining wounds. Character takes saves from failed LoS until they’re all gone/he’s dead
Any wounds beyond those required to kill him are passed on to the last 3 troopers, as they would also have failed their equal/worse armour saves
3) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds on the remaining troopers behind the character

Character has worse save:

S

T
T
T
T
C
T
T
T

1) Roll saves for first 4 troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
2) LoS and roll save for all remaining wounds one at a time on the character, until he’s dead/has taken all remaining wounds.
3) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds on the troopers behind the character
4) Roll saves for any wounds left over after step 2 on the remaining troopers behind the character



More than one Character

S

T
T
T
T
C1 = Character with equal or better armour save
T
T
C2 = Character with equal or better armour save
T
T

1) Roll saves for first 4 troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
2) LoS all remaining wounds for C1
3) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds in batches on the troopers between C1 and C2, then on C2 and then on the remaining troopers behind the C2, as you can’t LoS an already LoS-ed wound.
4) C1 takes saves one at a time (or batches of his remaining number of wounds) from failed LoS until they’re all gone/he’s dead.
5) Any wounds beyond those required to kill C1 are passed on to the two troopers between C1 and C2. Roll saves for the troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
6) LoS all remaining wounds which have now passed on to C2. C2 takes saves from failed LoS until they’re all gone/he’s dead.
Any wounds beyond those required to kill him are passed on to the last 2 troopers, as they would also have failed their equal/worse armour saves.
7) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds on the remaining troopers behind C2



More than one Character, one with worse armour save.

S

T
T
T
T
C+ = Character with equal or better armour save
T
T
C- = Character with worse armour save
T
T

5) Roll saves for first 4 troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
6) LoS all remaining wounds for C+
7) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds on the save of the remaining troopers behind C+, as you can’t LoS an already LoS-ed wound. These can be rolled as a batch as C- has a worse save (or equal) than the trooper save.
8) C+ takes saves from failed LoS until they’re all gone/he’s dead.
8) Any wounds beyond those required to kill C+ are passed on to the two troopers between C+ and C-. Roll saves for the troopers in batches until they’re all dead.
9) LoS and roll save for all remaining wounds one at a time on C-, until he’s dead/has taken all remaining wounds.
10) Roll saves for passed LoS wounds on the troopers behind the C-

Character at back:

S

T
T
T
T
T
T
T
C

No LoS rolls required, as everyone else will be dead by the time wounds are allocated to character. If he has the same or a worse save than the troopers, they can all be rolled in a batch. If he has a better save, roll in batches for the seven troopers until they’re dead

Right?

fething christ I hate the new wound allocation rules.

Kudos to Graphite for writing what many of us where too lazy to.

Oh wow, thanks Graphite.

So, the big change I see, is that when you come to a character, you roll the ENTIRE wound pool at once for LoS (rather than one by one, until the character dies, then continuing with the rest of the wound pool for the rest of the squad). The ones that pass on, you set aside, while the ones you fail are all dumped on the character.

So characters have effectively become potentially amazing meat shields, for better or for worse.

Edit: or, wait, was that just a speed rolling method you came up with?

Speed rolling method - If anyone else can have a check of my methodology that'd be great.

PittedPanda wrote:
Is it just me, or is all the excellent advances in wound allocation 6th ed proposes negated by this LOS! bs?

Anyone house-ruling this out?

Seems so tedious and stupid to have 8 SM jump in front of my librarian one-by-one taking plasma shots... Really i should have just not lead with my librarian in the first place!

My group only permits a single LoS! per unit, per phase.

 Deuce11 wrote:

PittedPanda wrote:
Is it just me, or is all the excellent advances in wound allocation 6th ed proposes negated by this LOS! bs?

Anyone house-ruling this out?

Seems so tedious and stupid to have 8 SM jump in front of my librarian one-by-one taking plasma shots... Really i should have just not lead with my librarian in the first place!

My group only permits a single LoS! per unit, per phase.

Why not just get rid of it completely then, man up people

meh we thought 1) speeds up game play and 2) fits more in line with GW's policy to make game more cinematic (goofballs jumping from all angles to get in front of bullets seemed more satirical than cinematic )

 Deuce11 wrote:
meh we thought 1) speeds up game play and 2) fits more in line with GW's policy to make game more cinematic (goofballs jumping from all angles to get in front of bullets seemed more satirical than cinematic )

Sure, but the character dodging all those bullets which hit guys in his unit seems suitably cinematic, like something out of Bulletproof Monk (2003)

haha can you imagine what it would sound like if a Legion of Marines were all screaming "look out sir!" while getting fired upon hahaha

LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS! LoS!

 Kharrak wrote:


Is it effectively exactly the same, just clarified so that confused (and oppertunistic) players don't think that you can LoS after failing an armour save on a character?

That's exactly what players as a group decided the rule should be played (when convenient) at one of our local stores. Needless to say, I didn't play there much.

When one of my friends tried to tell me that that is how the rule was intended, I gave him a dumb look and explained how you could easily abuse that with Coteaz and a squad of 4 point guys. I fail my 2+ invuln save, roll LoS 2+ yay, got it, ok, remove a 4 point scrub.

I am sorry but I still don't get it. So first of all If I have a unit of 5 Marines and o Librarian( no sergent in the unit) . All have the same save, Librairan has a 2+. I take 10 wounds.


Shooter


Librarian
M1
M2
M3
M4
M5

Questions:

1.During that units shooting can I make 1 LoS? or can I make LoS untill all my unit is dead? and then put saves on my Librarian

2.I must decide if I do my LoS before I roll to save, right ?. So no more 2+ save and when I fail I do my LoS. Right?

3.The way we play it is that you can only make one Los pe Shooting Unit. Meaning If I fire my Rhino in you , you are allowed of one LoS ( just one, not two) . Then I fire with another unit- with an assault cannon-you are allowed for one LoS ( just one, not two). Is this correct?

Thanks for helping