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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 03:24:50
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Mannahnin wrote:It's a stupid argument. No one has apologized for free speech. It's completely legitimate to criticize an donkey-cave who misuses his right to free speech to foment violence and hatred. There was no need or call for Clinton to "explain the First Amendment"; lecturing other people on how we have more freedoms than they do isn't going to help the diplomatic situation.
Agree. Enough to say attacking our people is bad.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 03:37:38
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork
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Jihadin wrote:Didn't see te Christians go nuts over the "Da Vinci Code"
There were quite a few people that were upset and vocal about the film. This isn't really a good comparison though as one was an piece of agit-prop pseudo-documentary designed to inflame whereas the other is Hollywood Blockbuster aimed at entertaining. I would compare it Triumph of the Will, but that would be unfair to Triumph of the Will, which while espousing truly horrendous ideology, was an incredibly well made film. No, it is more like The Eternal Jew: short, amateur, pseudo-documentary designed only to inflame and incite. And, really, Da Vinci Code when The Last Temptation of Christ is still an option?
And before we go giving Christians* a pat on the back let's not forget the people who made it are Christians.
*I hate to use Christian in such a broad way, but then it hasn't really stopped us from using Muslim in such a broad way either.
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Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 04:15:04
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
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whembly wrote: ShumaGorath wrote:First: I'd really insist you to have an open mind on Michael Totten and Michael Yon... these two writers/photographers actually are on the ground in (Iraq, Afpak, Africa). Secondly: You just refuted your own statments... there's still protest/riots/whatever even AFTER the us apologize... they DON'T CARE about our apology. This hurts my head. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
Let's parse this nebulous concept of logic... shall we? You said, and I quote "...concept that an apologetic stance towards religious insults increases and emboldens terrorist activity. Every shred of evidence and simple logic dictates the exact opposite..." It certainly doesn't DECREASE and DEFLATE terrorist activities... I can find numerous cases that refutes this Shuma... here's an easy one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/04/danish-cartoonist-axe-attack Over a friggin CARTOON! There were numerous outcries/appeasment and all that... Did the violence stop? And how does that square with your logic there. Let me add... I was more disappointed that our 1st ammendment was defended... the apology itself didnt bother me. It never ends. It really never ends. You use logical fallacy after fallacy and support none of it ever. Laying the blame, shifting sands, equivocation, appeals to authority, false sourcing. You support an article that says that apologizing increases terrorist activity, I say that it decreases it. You then say that it has no visible effect (contradicting your own source) and state that I'm wrong by providing links telling about an event where people intentionally fanned the flames by repeatedly reposting the original offensive material for over a year, as if that somehow counted as an apology that should have reduced the outrage. You know what that is? It's not an apology, it's continued offense. You know what burning a Koran does? It pisses people off. You know what burning a Koran on video does and then flexing military supremacy and the freedom to insult people that you have had an active hand in attacking or oppressing for half a century? It pisses people off. Pissed off people burn gak to the ground and shoot at things with guns. An apology doesn't cause people to burn things to the ground, saying we don't approve of something doesn't cause people to burn things to the ground. Sticking to your headstrong small minded "nothing we do is ever wrong" mindset gets us shot at. It gets our gak blown up. It makes people with nothing in their lives, no where to turn to, and a clearly defined enemy insulting something they've dedicated their lives to want to make it stop happening. They make it stop happening in the only way they feasibly can, by attacking the closest representative of their new enemy. Obama is threading a needle between pissing off the conservative manchildren who can't have an active sitting president denounce intensely racist propaganda without it assaulting their dainty sensibilities and people with guns and missiles willing to kill themselves to strike back against perceived insults. One of the presidents political duties is to protect our assets abroad, he doesn't do that by embracing virulent anti muslim propaganda while our facilities are in the middle of muslim held territories in states that can't police themselves due to recent and total revolutions. That would be something an idiot would do.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 04:18:08
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 04:20:01
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Whoa now. It doesn't get you shot at Shuma. It gets me shot at (if I deploy) or the US military shot at.
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Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 04:21:53
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
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Jihadin wrote:Whoa now. It doesn't get you shot at Shuma. It gets me shot at (if I deploy) or the US military shot at. That ambassador wasn't in the military. Civilian foreign nationals and Christians in libya and the rest of the mideast/africa will be attacked before armed soldiers. But yeah, it does put soldiers in even further risk beyond what is required by their duty. It makes them targets in yet another way in the middle of a transition where America really needs to be ingratiating itself as a benevolent western power, rather than a murderous one that plays toy soliders with dictators and is trying to destroy Islam.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 04:24:59
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 04:46:47
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Because it's one stupid film. If your belief in your chosen superstition is so remarkably weak that anyone questioning or insulting it sends you into such paroxysms of self-doubt and rage that you're forced to lash out, violently or otherwise, at any even remotely linked to your detractors, maybe it's time to pick a new superstition, or just give them up entirely.
That goes for Muslims with this movie - or political cartoons - or any depiction of anything they don't like, anywhere. It goes for Christians with Dan Brown works - or The Last Temptation of Christ - or any depiction of anything they don't like, anywhere.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 04:53:41
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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A) No one has defended people who lash out violently because they're offended. Everyone has said that's bad. So don't equate that to people getting offended and "lashing out" in a nonviolent way. There's a big difference between violent and nonviolent protests.
B) If someone makes a video whose whole purpose is to mock and degrade my religion, and to call the founder a pedophile, I have every reason and right to be offended by that video and mad at the jackass who made it.
Now, of course, he has every right to make it, but having that right doesn't make him immune from the consequences, nor does it entirely absolve him of moral responsibility for the consequences to other people. He incited violence, and he knew he was inciting violence, and he did it anyway. He's a scumbag. The people who perpetrated the violence committed greater evils, but OTOH at least most of what they did wasn't calculated or premeditated.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:04:37
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Seaward wrote:
Because it's one stupid film. If your belief in your chosen superstition is so remarkably weak that anyone questioning or insulting it sends you into such paroxysms of self-doubt and rage that you're forced to lash out, violently or otherwise, at any even remotely linked to your detractors, maybe it's time to pick a new superstition, or just give them up entirely.
That goes for Muslims with this movie - or political cartoons - or any depiction of anything they don't like, anywhere. It goes for Christians with Dan Brown works - or The Last Temptation of Christ - or any depiction of anything they don't like, anywhere.
Why stop at superstition? Why not include other things? Perhaps political ideology, social philosophy, or Zoidberg?
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:28:30
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Mannahnin wrote:A) No one has defended people who lash out violently because they're offended. Everyone has said that's bad. So don't equate that to people getting offended and "lashing out" in a nonviolent way. There's a big difference between violent and nonviolent protests.
I'm not equating them. I'm pointing out they're both equally ridiculous.
B) If someone makes a video whose whole purpose is to mock and degrade my religion, and to call the founder a pedophile, I have every reason and right to be offended by that video and mad at the jackass who made it.
You have a right to be offended, sure, but no reason to be.
dogma wrote:Why stop at superstition? Why not include other things? Perhaps political ideology, social philosophy, or Zoidberg?
We could, sure, though I'd prefer to leave the maxim at concepts with no grounding in reality whatsoever. I'm personally not offended when someone insults my political ideology, so however you want to modify it works for me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:33:28
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Fixture of Dakka
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Seaward wrote:
No, they didn't.
You deliberately left out the sentence than followed the one you quoted. That video upsets me, not because I'm particularly fond of Muslims but because its blatantly false and intentionally offensive, you know like a Klan rally. I have a legitimate reason to be upset at Walmart on a regular basis, like Mannahin said its not a justification to violence.
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Avatar 720 wrote:You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters.. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:34:15
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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They're not equally ridiculous by any stretch, unless you think that no one should be offended by having the things they love and hold dear insulted.
Is there nothing in your life which would anger you to have degraded and insulted? Your wife, your mother, your children, your home, your principles?
If something you are about is mocked and associated unjustly with horrible crimes like pedophilia, you have every right and reason to be offended by that.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:46:10
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Seaward wrote:
We could, sure, though I'd prefer to leave the maxim at concepts with no grounding in reality whatsoever.
So my initial statement, bar Zoidberg, was basically on the spot.
I sort of wish I had a "rebut atheist rant" macro right now.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:50:53
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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dogma wrote: Seaward wrote:
We could, sure, though I'd prefer to leave the maxim at concepts with no grounding in reality whatsoever.
So my initial statement, bar Zoidberg, was basically on the spot.
I sort of wish I had a "rebut atheist rant" macro right now.
It would save time, you could pre-type a "rebut atheist rant", a "rebut religious rant," a "rebut liberal rant," a "rebut conservative rant." It would save you hours
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, locationMagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 05:57:13
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Mannahnin wrote:They're not equally ridiculous by any stretch, unless you think that no one should be offended by having the things they love and hold dear insulted.
Is there nothing in your life which would anger you to have degraded and insulted? Your wife, your mother, your children, your home, your principles?
If something you are about is mocked and associated unjustly with horrible crimes like pedophilia, you have every right and reason to be offended by that.
Let's not pretend there's an equivalency between pejoratives slung at verifiable family members and (possibly true, for all we know) pejoratives slung at long-dead founders of systematic superstition.
What's particularly amusing about this line of defense is that I've never in my life met someone of another religion who's had any issues whatsoever mocking the hell out of L. Ron Hubbard, yet from an outsider's perspective? All of a piece. No less valid and defensible a system of belief than any of the others. Which is of course to say, not at all. I'd compare it to demanding that the Loch Ness Monster be considered inviolate, but being fine with calling Bigfoot a chump.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 05:59:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:04:32
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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whembly wrote:I disagree Seb... we're dealing with Extremist who doesn't understand this, or more likely they're using it as a pretext to exert influence in the region.
But you aren't dealing just with extremists. You're dealing with people who aren't quite extremists willing to do stupid things in the name holy war. And you're dealing with a greater population, who depending on how you behave will be more or less willing to tolerate extremist groups living within their midst.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:07:46
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Seaward, I respect a lot of atheist thought, but I'm sorry to say that I can't feel the same about what you're putting forward here. :(
Your claim that they had no reason to be angry is based on you imposing your (lack of) beliefs on theirs. When of course, that's not how motivation works. If they love a thing and it is central to their lives, even if you don't believe it's real, obviously it's important to them.
You also dodged the point about whether you would feel angry if someone denigrated your values or principles.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 06:08:28
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:08:45
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Ahtman wrote: Jihadin wrote:Didn't see te Christians go nuts over the "Da Vinci Code" There were quite a few people that were upset and vocal about the film. This isn't really a good comparison though as one was an piece of agit-prop pseudo-documentary designed to inflame whereas the other is Hollywood Blockbuster aimed at entertaining. I would compare it Triumph of the Will, but that would be unfair to Triumph of the Will, which while espousing truly horrendous ideology, was an incredibly well made film. No, it is more like The Eternal Jew: short, amateur, pseudo-documentary designed only to inflame and incite. And, really, Da Vinci Code when The Last Temptation of Christ is still an option? Yeah, Christians freaked out good and proper about The Last Temptation of Christ, and there was no shortage of outrage about The Life of Brian either. They were nothing like this, of course, but then that means what exactly - that parts of Islam are extremely volatile and prone considerable outrage? Well, duh. But then you look at why that might be the case (poverty, poor education standards, weak political standing internationally) and it's really no surprise it is how it is. But lots of people look past all of that because they for some reason or another desperately want their clash of cultures. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote:Because it's one stupid film. If your belief in your chosen superstition is so remarkably weak that anyone questioning or insulting it sends you into such paroxysms of self-doubt and rage that you're forced to lash out, violently or otherwise, at any even remotely linked to your detractors, maybe it's time to pick a new superstition, or just give them up entirely. Or maybe you could consider things are a lot more complicated than that. Being born into a position of relative power and privilege makes that sort of stuff a lot less important. Ultimately, it is important to them. So it's the act of an obnoxious ass to attack that for no reason other than provoke a response.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 06:11:57
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:28:42
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Mannahnin wrote:Seaward, I respect a lot of atheist thought, but I'm sorry to say that I can't feel the same about what you're putting forward here. :(
Does that entitle me to throw a big, "My fee-fees, they're hurt!" tantrum?
Your claim that they had no reason to be angry is based on you imposing your (lack of) beliefs on theirs. When of course, that's not how motivation works. If they love a thing and it is central to their lives, even if you don't believe it's real, obviously it's important to them.
Why is their love of it conditional on how other people feel about it? The worth of the things that I care about is determined by me, not by someone half a world away with an entirely different culture, and I frankly could not possibly care less what they think about it.
You also dodged the point about whether you would feel angry if someone denigrated your values or principles.
I like to think I hold the values and principals that I do precisely because they're strong enough on their own to stand up to ridicule without me needing to get emotionally involved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:30:48
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Okay, but if someone made an inflammatory video and translated it into your language specifically to insult you, isn't that grounds for feeling insulted?
I'll defend to the death your right to call me an donkey-cave, but most people don't feel as strongly about free speech as I do.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:35:12
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Mannahnin wrote:Okay, but if someone made an inflammatory video and translated it into your language specifically to insult you, isn't that grounds for feeling insulted?
Why would it be, especially if I believed the claims made to be ridiculous?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:39:01
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I think you'll find that the majority of humanity doesn't share your sense of detachment, sadly. Most people have more emotional involvement than that, in the things they care about.
Of course nothing justifies a violent response, but nonviolent protesting is responding to speech with speech.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:42:43
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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Mannahnin wrote:I think you'll find that the majority of humanity doesn't share your sense of detachment, sadly. Most people have more emotional involvement than that, in the things they care about.
Of course nothing justifies a violent response, but nonviolent protesting is responding to speech with speech.
You misunderstand. I have an emotional involvement in the things I care about, certainly. But my caring about them is not influenced by the opinions of those who do not, as seems to be the case with religion, and a pretty blatant attempt to, for lack of a better word, troll the things I care about wouldn't elicit much of a response from me. Why take stupid bait?
If I say Jesus wasn't real, or was a tax cheat, or loved professional wrestling, does that change your opinion of him? If not, why bother going twelve rounds? It makes zero sense, and seems to be a uniquely religious instinct.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:52:01
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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I don't think it's uniquely religious. More tribal, maybe. People freak out in similar ways when their country or political system is attacked/insulted.
But my caring about them is not influenced by the opinions of those who do not, as seems to be the case with religion, and a pretty blatant attempt to, for lack of a better word, troll the things I care about wouldn't elicit much of a response from me.
Bear in mind also that there's a religion vs. religion angle here, too, based on who created the video.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 06:53:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 06:53:18
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Seaward wrote:Does that entitle me to throw a big, "My fee-fees, they're hurt!" tantrum? No. We've been through this. Recognising a likely course of action from another party doesn't excuse them if they undertake that action. It's like arguing with a goldfish. I like to think I hold the values and principals that I do precisely because they're strong enough on their own to stand up to ridicule without me needing to get emotionally involved. Well, I'd like to congratulate you on evolving to a being of pure reason, and having assumed a new form as a gaseous cloud due to it being the most efficient form of existance. The rest of us lowly humans are still going to have our emotions tied up in our values. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote:If I say Jesus wasn't real, or was a tax cheat, or loved professional wrestling, does that change your opinion of him? If not, why bother going twelve rounds? It makes zero sense, and seems to be a uniquely religious instinct. Uniquely religious? Yeah, because no-one ever gets into a fight because someone called someone's mum fat, when both parties knew that person had never actually met their mum. Or got into a punch up over the result of a football match. It's only ever over religion. Ultimately, you're here saying how your views are so much more logical and enlightened... but you're still resorting to the same old religion bashing that so many of my fellow atheists fall for. Which kind of shows you have just as much of a crutch for your beliefs as anyone else.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 06:57:24
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 07:57:07
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Imperial Admiral
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sebster wrote: Seaward wrote:Does that entitle me to throw a big, "My fee-fees, they're hurt!" tantrum?
No. We've been through this. Recognising a likely course of action from another party doesn't excuse them if they undertake that action.
Wait a tick. You've spent pages arguing that it's perfectly reasonable to get offended when someone disrespects your beliefs. You are now saying I cannot get offended when someone states they do not respect mine. I'd start actually reading posts before hitting the Reply button, friend.
It's like arguing with a goldfish.
That's it, I'm on my way to the Australian embassy.
Well, I'd like to congratulate you on evolving to a being of pure reason, and having assumed a new form as a gaseous cloud due to it being the most efficient form of existance.
The rest of us lowly humans are still going to have our emotions tied up in our values.
It has nothing to do with pure reason, and everything to do with, dare I say, the emotional maturity of not choosing to be offended every time someone says something I do not agree with. If you find value in frequently enraging yourself, by all means, continue to do so.
Ultimately, you're here saying how your views are so much more logical and enlightened... but you're still resorting to the same old religion bashing that so many of my fellow atheists fall for. Which kind of shows you have just as much of a crutch for your beliefs as anyone else.
Now there's a non sequitur if ever there was one. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind also that there's a religion vs. religion angle here, too, based on who created the video.
I'm sure you'll understand why I do not view that as remotely close to a better reason for anyone involved to take offense. Chupacabra versus the jackalope.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/14 07:59:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 14:11:03
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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The commentary here is very good.
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/muslims-must-see-the-west-is-not-at-war-with-islam-8135054.html
Muslims rise to the bait every time. From Salman Rushdie to the Danish cartoons and now the US ambassador killed in Libya. A Right-wing Islamophobe in the West publishes incendiary material, and as if on autopilot, a Muslim mob will turn angry and unleash violence. How to stop these repeat performances of medieval intolerance?
I write as a Muslim. I detest the negative, to me blasphemous, portrayal in such films of the Prophet Mohamed I venerate and love. But in a free society I am fully within my rights to rebut the anti-Muslim propaganda with facts, not force.
To resort to violence is to lose the argument. The freedom of religion that allows 30 million Muslims to thrive in the West today came about because religion was mocked in Europe after the Enlightenment period — no single religion could enforce its will as “The Truth”. The freedoms to proselytise, apostasise and blaspheme are all interlinked.
Without those liberties, we Muslims would not be practising religious freedom in the West, building mosques, creating cemeteries, prospering as faith communities. In other words, we cannot burn the very bridges that let us and other communities be here as free people.
To continue to value our freedoms in the West, and help project this model into newly free Arab societies, three things must happen.
First, in Libya, the terrorists who were behind killing consular staff in Benghazi must face the full force of the law. No moral equivocation such as “we must be more sensitive” should be advanced. Such excuse-making not only encourages this behaviour but risks undermining the foundational pillars of liberty and free societies in the West. And it sets a terrible example to Arab countries looking to advance democracy.
Second, there is a backstory to the news headlines. For every protest or killing, there is an underlying cause of Muslims not coming to terms with the modern world. We are easily offended. Our clerics in mosques have not updated their understanding of blasphemy or heresy. In short, we need thicker skins and must accept that just as we can be critical of other faiths and ideologies, others are free to do so about us.
Finally, al Qaeda and its followers have popularised a narrative in Muslim-majority countries that the West is at war with Muslims and Islam. From the crusades to empire to Guantánamo Bay to Iraq, this reading of history and collection of half-truths helps animate many Muslims.
This false mindset, a flawed belief, needs urgent discrediting. Who better to do this than the Muslims who live and prosper as Westerners in Europe and the United States?
Friday prayers tomorrow in Arab and Muslim countries may be used by clerics to fan the flames of anger. But the Prophet Mohamed they claim to defend stood by and watched a Bedouin urinate in the mosque. He forgave that blasphemy. Where is that spirit of compassion?
Muslims in free societies must not be divided by the radical Salafi Muslims of the Middle East, or the Right-wing Muslimphobes in the West. The clash of extremes cannot be allowed to reverse our freedoms.
Ed Husain is author of The Islamist and a senior fellow at the US Council on Foreign Relations.
Twitter: @ed_husain
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 14:11:23
Subject: Re:American Embassies under attack
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
Lubeck
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It seems the German embassy in Khartum, Sudan, was attacked/stormed and the German flag replaced by a muslim banner of some kind. According to a German news website, the protesters are on their way to the US embassy/consulate now. Some protesters are staying and trying to breach the doors of the German embassy.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/sudanesische-demonstranten-greifen-deutsche-botschaft-an-a-855849.html
According to the article, the Sudanese government openly critisized the movie made in the US and islamistic groups called for violent protests after the Friday prayer.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/14 14:13:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 14:59:17
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Hey, don't be mean to goldfish!
Mythbusters proved that they have a better memory and capacity to learn than this.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 16:14:05
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Seaward wrote: sebster wrote: Seaward wrote:Does that entitle me to throw a big, "My fee-fees, they're hurt!" tantrum?
No. We've been through this. Recognising a likely course of action from another party doesn't excuse them if they undertake that action.
Wait a tick. You've spent pages arguing that it's perfectly reasonable to get offended when someone disrespects your beliefs. You are now saying I cannot get offended when someone states they do not respect mine. I'd start actually reading posts before hitting the Reply button, friend.
It's like arguing with a goldfish.
That's it, I'm on my way to the Australian embassy.
Well, I'd like to congratulate you on evolving to a being of pure reason, and having assumed a new form as a gaseous cloud due to it being the most efficient form of existance.
The rest of us lowly humans are still going to have our emotions tied up in our values.
It has nothing to do with pure reason, and everything to do with, dare I say, the emotional maturity of not choosing to be offended every time someone says something I do not agree with. If you find value in frequently enraging yourself, by all means, continue to do so.
Ultimately, you're here saying how your views are so much more logical and enlightened... but you're still resorting to the same old religion bashing that so many of my fellow atheists fall for. Which kind of shows you have just as much of a crutch for your beliefs as anyone else.
Now there's a non sequitur if ever there was one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind also that there's a religion vs. religion angle here, too, based on who created the video.
I'm sure you'll understand why I do not view that as remotely close to a better reason for anyone involved to take offense. Chupacabra versus the jackalope.
People do not choose what offends them.
Of course someone who really thinks Mo was a prophet to the Supreme Being will be angry
A peaceful Protest is fine - they can even burn a US FLAG if they buy one.
What is disgusting here is the killing of Americans, burning down a building, and even going after other embassies that do not represent the home of this Becile guy.
Jews and Christians simply do not resort to murder when they are made fun of by a guy no one had heard of.
And the old woman killed in the film may be based on a real person/account.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/14 16:31:31
Subject: American Embassies under attack
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)
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Jews and Christians simply do not resort to murder when they are made fun of by a guy no one had heard of.
They do in central Africa. Militant, poorly educated, poor, and jobless populations tend to turn violent for stupid reasons.
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad |
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