Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So you guys know that I am looking for some models 'juves' to count as Rattlings, this has got me some ribbing from some people I know.

Now I have seen Nazi Orks, and know of one occasion when a passer by complained about someone's Tallarn army, saying it was racist.

So the question is: How far can one go before the invisible line is crossed?

This whole game is based around a Grim Dark future, the bloodiest regimes imaginable. Remember that Innocence Proves Nothing, and in fact does not exist as everyone is guilty of something... which is kind of true IRL... and gives the background some much captivating depth.

So what's your take?

The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.

Nazi orks, Nazi guard, whatever. Just don't do it for shock value, it has to be well done. You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day.

The line , being invisible, is redrawn by each person

I have some juvie orks as gun crew (old Rt/2nd ed ones that are tiny) as well as grots (some are child-like, if green) and no-one complains.

Humans will be a bit more provoking to some, but it's going to vary.

As long as your models looks to be at least teenager, i don't see a proble, though infants/kids with guns might be a touch over the line

Remember Necromunda: Some gang fighters were clearly modeled as kids in their mid-late teens.

What's the worst a person can think about you when you model your army with X?
Are you ok with them thinking that of you?
Do you care about the opinions of those that would think that?

Ask yourself these, and you'll know how far you can go. It's fine and well to say you only care about what you think, but that's not the reality of society. We care about what others think. But not what ALL others think. I, for example, do not care if people think I'm a pervert for having a model with a tit hanging out, because the people that would think like that are not people I am interested in having in my circle of friends. I do, however, care if my friends think I'm MFA, so I do not model in a way that gives me any kind of advantage.

The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army. The nazi army is offensive (outside of historical WWII games) because it's a reminder of a horrible war that many people still suffer the effects of. For example, if your grandparents were murdered by the nazis do you really want to play against someone who thinks it's just a cool color scheme? Or worse, that the shock value is funny?

And no, the fluff doesn't have the same effect, because nobody real was killed by the Imperium/tortured by DE/whatever. There's a line separating fiction and reality, and it's important to keep it there.

 Horst wrote:
The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.

Why not? Why is this any worse than the vast amounts of fluff (and models) depicting brutal torture, genocide, and an endless variety of horrible individual deaths?

Though, TBH, I'd probably object to the army because the models were poor quality (I imagine this wasn't an awesome conversion), just like I'd object to an IG army that used a bunch of $5 plastic toys as its tanks and a bag of green army men for its troops.

 Horst wrote:
The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.

Nazi orks, Nazi guard, whatever. Just don't do it for shock value, it has to be well done. You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day.

There would have to be a good conversion for me to accept this, if you wanted to have phallus like power maces for instance id be all for it, but just putting legs on a toy does not fly imo.

*of course keep this to the adult players! I dont want my daughter coming up to play and seeing this!!

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, the fluff doesn't have the same effect, because nobody real was killed by the Imperium/tortured by DE/whatever. There's a line separating fiction and reality, and it's important to keep it there.

Really? And where is that line?

People, right now, are in wars, being shot at. Being tortured. And here we sit, playing at war, with little weapons. Guns and swords. The most easily identifiable images of war and suffering there could ever be. There are models with torturing tongs. Something that people living right now has seen and experienced at the receiving end. I can't even begin to imagine how horrible that must be. But you draw the line at nazi symbols, not the symbols of war and death for thousands of years?

Think on it.

Peregrine wrote:The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army.

I agree. I would also include bringing in elements from non-40k worlds as well. Nazi orks and brony space marines and chibi daemons are all roughly equally appalling in my mind.

^ Nazis are more specific than guns, swords, nooses, and such.

For instance, Nazis were terrible and playing against Nazi orks when you have the dead grandparents as mentioned as an example, but I'm sure my own relatives were shot at and injured and such, but guns are everywhere. I don't want to say that I don't want to play against an army that has guns because I feel that it is too raw and emotional or something. Why would you even say that guns and swords were the line when that is what 40k uses most?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, meant to point up at Purifier's post, not your Ailaros

 Decio wrote:
Why would you even say that guns and swords were the line when that is what 40k uses most?

Because that was exactly my point. I find it ridiculous to be fine with playing at war, but all of a sudden be abhorrent to nazis, as if nazis are the only evil in the world.
We're already knee deep in evil, and then you find one turd flowing in the river of the swear filter is here for a reason, please don't bypass it.Reds8n and you get offended by it.

I think it's a cruddy choice for army because it doesn't suit the fluff, but I think people that feel violated by it should really look at themselves and what it is they are saying.

^ Ah, misunderstood your point. Sorry. Though I think the line is, as mentioned in other posts, more of a personal preference thing. You'd still have to be passionate to not play against Nazi Orks though. Just try to pound them with righteousness if you don't like Nazis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ Ah, misunderstood your point. Sorry. Though I think the line is, as mentioned in other posts, more of a personal preference thing. You'd still have to be passionate to not play against Nazi Orks though. Just try to pound them with righteousness if you don't like Nazis.

I love to see a well painted army.

But, I would rather see a crapishly painted Cadian army than a Golden Deamon award winning Space Marine army painted like Space Nazis.

In fact, I'd refuse to play such an army because of a number of assumptions and beliefs I'd have about the player/painter.


Edit: If we're playing an historical WWII game, that's fine naturally.

It is a game, yes, you're right, but you're playing against actual people, what do you gain for upsetting someone? Isn't the point of WH40k to actually play with your army? If you want to show just how cool and rebellious that you are, how you do not need to follow society's rules because you're just so cool, you could do that for free by running around the street nazi saluting people or whacking people across the face with a dildo like some sorta RL saints row, why bring it to a tabletop game? Do you honestly think someone will go "Holy batman, look at this brave young man, proudly showing his fearlessness toward society's standard, how he cared not about what others think! He is truly a beacon of hope in this time of darkness!!"?

The line is different for everyone, but just apply common sense, even a cave dweller, such as myself, can tell what the common things people get offended about are: nazi, extreme adult themed(ie dildo with legs posted above), etc... I make a lot of sexist, racist and generally offensive jokes around my friends, but I'd never do it in front of people I barely know, because I have the common decency to not offend someone if I can help it. There is a place and time for your dildo and nazi salutes, and public is definitely not one of those.

Common sense dude. If you don't see why putting swastikas on space marines is inappropriate, you have problems.

Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.

Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.

that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.

 Purifier wrote:
Really? And where is that line?

People, right now, are in wars, being shot at. Being tortured. And here we sit, playing at war, with little weapons. Guns and swords. The most easily identifiable images of war and suffering there could ever be. There are models with torturing tongs. Something that people living right now has seen and experienced at the receiving end. I can't even begin to imagine how horrible that must be. But you draw the line at nazi symbols, not the symbols of war and death for thousands of years?

Think on it.

Why is it so hard to understand the line between fantasy and reality? Yes, there are guns and swords in real life, but a space marine with a magic sword has no connection to a specific act of real violence with a sword. Think of it like a horror movie: you watch it, bad things happen, but in the end you know it's entirely fiction and there's no reason to bring real life events into it. The nazi orks, on the other hand, narrow it down to a specific real-world event and make it impossible to ignore the real-life impact of that event. That might not be a problem if you have plenty of emotional distance from WWII, but there are still a lot of people who don't.

Also there's a huge difference in that nazi images are a political symbol, of a very specific ideology. A gun, on the other hand, is politically neutral. Or compare it to Steel Legion IG, which draw a lot of design inspiration from the WWII German army. The difference is the Steel Legion troops just take the hardware, and can be considered just another historical army in space. Nazi orks, by including that political symbol, specifically refer to the ideology of stuff like racism, industrialized genocide, etc. It's the difference between equipping your real-world army with surplus WWII German equipment and putting a nazi symbol on your uniforms.

Finally, don't forget that, unlike historical games, there is no fluff that includes nazi symbols (or any other real-world ideology), so there's no excuse that you're "just making it authentic". That means that anyone who makes an army like the nazi orks either:

1) Approves of the nazi ideology and wants to proudly represent it in their army.

or

2) Thinks that it's funny to shock people with it.

Group #1 are obviously disgusting people who should be kicked out of the hobby, while group #2 are just s who don't care who they offend as long as it's "funny". And I don't know about you, but I don't want to play against s or approve of their immature behavior.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army.

I agree. I would also include bringing in elements from non-40k worlds as well. Nazi orks and brony space marines and chibi daemons are all roughly equally appalling in my mind.

I disagree. Brony space marines are silly and I'd certainly hate to have them become so common that half my games are against some variety of joke army, but they're not offensive. The nazi orks, on the other hand, are.

They might not be offensive to you, but they certainly are to me.

Seriously. Leave your MLP fetish and Nazi Space Marines at home.

I Loled at the Dildo defiler, I think that was an extremely creative way of modeling slaanesh.

Purifier has a point, it's why I've spent so much time writing fannon and not published it.

Your army makes a personal statement, as does your writing. Give it to but one other person and it immediately becomes immortal because they will carry it for as long as they live. The more of an impression you make upon someone, the further and deeper your image will go.

I support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unethical things no sane person would truly support because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war. I want people to shy away from parts of my fiction and say,

"That's horrible, why would you do such a thing?"

I would reply that we play a war game. We are emulating the grimness of the 41st millenium, where the living nightmares of today are everyday occurrence. There exists a multitude of horrific things in the world today, from boy soldiers in multiple parts of Africa who taste the flesh of those they slay, to governments and nations that have brought the systemic ruin of people both within their own borders and without.

Warhammer is a hobby, but it is also a statement many leave unsaid. As bad ass as the universe is made to be, I see it as a warning, a true omen of things to come should humanity forget the bloody and horrific history that continues to shape us - one that we are as futile from shaking as the the base emotions we let control us.

I'd also like to expand on your idea of the Nazi symbol as it brings up a good point. Remember that the Eagle is an integral part of Nazi symbolism, as it is the U.S., Imperial Russia, the Roman Empire. Yet we're fine with the Aquilla and the Death Korps of Kreig who are a mixture of WWI and WWII German sculpture. They also happen to be one of the most popular armies. Vostroya is based upon the Cossacks, the personal and terrifying guard of the Tzar of Imperial Russia, responsible for butchering entire towns in pre-soviet Russia. Valhalla is Stalinist Russia (arguably even more horrifying than Hitler due to him outright slaying tens of millions of his own people.)

Catachan's are US troops, some were responsible for things we'd normally believe American's were not capable of during war - and before you explode in nerdrage, let me say this: it all boils down to how INSANE war truly is. Rulers, governments, people in general, justifying murder over a realitively short list of things: the most common, someone else has something you don't, but want.

What image does the AK-47 impress upon you? Its leathality, durability, and widespread availability is virtually the same as the Lasgun. It can and has been fired by children in both reality and in the lore. This craziness happens, and it happens because we (yes we) as commanders - those in power - are telling our armies to march across the board and murder those who stand in our way. That's what war is. And that is why I love warhammer, because it allows me to imagine humanity's ultimate nightmare - a war without end or hope of victory - and unless we wake up (and in the case of extreme symbolism) shocked at what we continue to do to each other, a future like this may be what's in store if we ever get off Earth in the first place.

Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's, I don't give a rat's ass. Its not like I won't play against a Valhallan army because my relative bit it under who they were based off of. You can't justify that there is a line that should separate this game from the real world because so many of the official fluff-based armies are from real armies or events in history.

The line is everything in 40k is fantasy. It's just an idea. We enjoy things that kill and burn and main because its a fun game to play.
We roll some dice and laugh as a daemon prince stomps all over imperial guard cause its a good laugh.

Nazis actually killed millions of people. No if no buts no coconuts, that's not cool.

I'd rather only be reminded of the guards deaths when I go to have fun thanks.


Models that have a Nazi look without actually being covered. In swastikas I imagine would be fine.
Just some mean looking well dressed dudes, but I won't be looking to the SS for painting ideas.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I also support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unpopular things because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war.

Then watch the news.

40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's

You mean like 90% of Europe? The second world war was a "recent" memory, even as I was growing up, and I'm 23.

Its odd where the line can be at times...but the general point made above is that the "line" exists at that fine point between modeling for aesthetic and modeling to make an inappropriate statement.

One of the first guard armies I ever saw, back in the late 90s was a Tallarn army done up as Mujahidin from the Soviet-Afghan War. Fantastically done up, visually stunning, and fitting a a theme. He has not taken that army out of its box since around Christmas time 2001, simply because people who do not know him (or when his models were painted) assume that he is being disrespectful to our efforts over seas or supportive of the Taliban. Its a weird world.

Anyway, if something is done tastefully I see no real problem.
As to your juves issue. In the 40k universe teenagers can serve as white shields on Cadia. Space Marines are drafted and inducted in their teens. I see no reason why a teenage soldier would be out of place in a 40k army...especially guard.

As an example of where I see the line:
Orks/Guard done up in nazi/ss aesthetics...cool
Guard/Orks plastered with nazi icons...not cool

But if people want to get all high and mighty about offending someone with an army. Think of this.
What would someone from Japan think of ww2 American guardsmen/aircraft?
Why are people not offended by Crusader symbols, possibly one of the most shameful events in Western and Church history?
The list goes on...but apparently the line is Nazis.

 Testify wrote:

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I also support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unpopular things because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war.

Then watch the news.

40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians.

... Ohhhh... crap.... I'm fleeing to another country then, been playing 40k all wrong!! !!![/badjokes]

I'd just like to add to what Testify said and say:

It's not that we think the world is made of lollipops, ice creams, unicorns and faeries dancing around pretty flowers, that the reality is just too scary to face, it's more that there is no reason to do something that could possibly upset someone. We all enjoy a few insensitive jokes here and there, but there is a place and time for that, just as you wouldn't go and use a dildo in public; yes, we know it's for sex, but we don't want to see you use it. So, if you really want to go with something offensive, leave it in your private group of friends who know you well and wouldn't be offended by it, what possibly could you gain by going with a dildo army at a family-friendly game(for example)?

If you honestly think that Nazi is a "good" way to represent yourself, then go ahead and do it, just don't expect anyone mature to shake your hand and thank you for enlightening them with your infinite wisdom, how they couldn't have possibly known that wars are terrible without you generously showing them with painted miniatures in a fantasy tabletop wargame, more than likely though, they'd see you as what Peregrine has described.

My IG armored company are Nazi "themed" and I'v never heard a complaint about it. Maybe it's because there are no swastikas though, even i have to admit that that would be out of taste.

The Germans invented the tank numbering scheme that everybody uses in 40k during ww2 (you know, 111, 112, 113 ect)

I don't care, at all, AT ALL, about the mindset of the game. You play the game with people in the 21st century, so you need to keep their sensibilities in mind.

 Testify wrote:

40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's

You mean like 90% of Europe? The second world war was a "recent" memory, even as I was growing up, and I'm 23.

1. It's about brightly colored ultramarines curbstomping Orks = glorified violence, though entertaining, is completely pointless in solving much other the most unethical quandaries (my point entirely).

2. It's only "recent" memory because it takes multiple generations to forget an event like that. People still talk about the mason dixie line here, you can visibly see the divide of the US in our parties and rampant racism is prevalent across the country.

Bottom line, if you didn't fight a war, don't, and don't worry about the problems people create to fight one.

 Purifier wrote:
What's the worst a person can think about you when you model your army with X?
Are you ok with them thinking that of you?
Do you care about the opinions of those that would think that?

Ask yourself these, and you'll know how far you can go.

+1 Lots of other good points too, by a lot of wise people...

To me, the line is when a person might sit down and see something unexpected across the table that isn't part of the 40k setting that is offensive. I don't expect to see nazi's, sex parodies, or pedophile references when sitting down to play 40k. Nor do I think its reasonable for someone to be subjected to that if they find any of those offensive. We all know the fluff and lore, and things contained within that using models that keep the theme of the GW stuff could present us. Most of us are offended when someone willfully puts something in front of us that is out of place. If what you're contemplating goes there, don't go there, or at least be ready to reap the whirlwind if you do.

Oh look it's this thread again.


Whether or not it's morally right or wrong is irrelevant. The fact is: it's your army, you payed for it, and you can model it however you want. Unfortunately, you need to be open to the possibility that there are going to be people out there who aren't terribly fond of your Nazi Orks. They will judge you. They will not be accepting. They probably won't even want to play you. Do I blame them? Nope. I wouldn't play you either.

You might not be a Nazi, but you are bringing unnecessary subject matter into the already grimdark universe of 40k for the sake of shock value. It's not appropriate in most social circles. If you are interested in the background of the Nazi subculture, as many historians are, then that's fine! I would recommend a game like Flames of War. But please, let's keep the 40k universe to Daemons, Aliens, and oppressive religious empires shall we?

Nazi orks? Personally i dont have a problem with this. Mind you my family and I have taken some gak from people over our German ancestry including having our property vandalized with swastikas and threats made against us so i wouldnt say im distanced from this either, even here in the states there are enough people who hate everything about what happened that this sort of thing can happen. If your going to do something like this tho i belive you should have a reason for it some fluff or something. Even something as simple as this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)

Dont come upto me tho and say your doin it because you thought it would be funny, because it isnt, and please dont say its because you respect the nazi beliefs or ideals thats just absurd.