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This is cowboys an Indians for adults an I love it. That being said I would have to seriously question the motives of anyone who would paint swastikas on their armies, an I don't think I would want to game with them.

^ and teens. Youths make up a good number of players too, just sayin.' Why is this whole thread about Nazi themed armies and why Nazis are bad and your reactions to such a thing.

Possibly, the OP meant the line where your entire CSM army is covered in mounds of gore and mutilated Guardsmen and such? I mean, the line was about modelling in game with game fluff and not themed in real life.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's, I don't give a rat's ass. Its not like I won't play against a Valhallan army because my relative bit it under who they were based off of. You can't justify that there is a line that should separate this game from the real world because so many of the official fluff-based armies are from real armies or events in history.

That's what I'm saying, there really isn't a line when it comes between real life and 40k in terms of how futile a military struggle is.

Pretty much do model your army however you want, as long as you realize that there will be consequences when you model an army that some people might find distasteful. As long as you are ready to accept such consequences there is no reason why you should not.

This thread take several million. The idea of nazi orks or guard is absurd course it is but again its your army do what you want. People will complain as thats just how people are.
While there is a certain shock value and while some do model the army they chose to offend or they believe the stupidity of what the nazis done there is also a factor overlooked. A fully painted and a well painted army be it nazi orks or guard does look very good on tge table bad taste or not.
A question, if a player who was hindu came to your store with an army covered in swastikas would you play them?

 Purifier wrote:

Because that was exactly my point. I find it ridiculous to be fine with playing at war, but all of a sudden be abhorrent to nazis, as if nazis are the only evil in the world.
We're already knee deep in evil, and then you find one turd flowing in the river of sh*t and you get offended by it.

I think it's a cruddy choice for army because it doesn't suit the fluff, but I think people that feel violated by it should really look at themselves and what it is they are saying.

this is the list of my closest family killed by the nazis durning WWII. both my grand mothers [father side] brother , their wife , one 6 month child , one 4 year old child . My grand grand father burned alive durning Warsaw uprasing , by Waffen SS that didnt let him go out of a burning building . On my mother side . My grand grand father , my grand grand dad [more or less whole village was pacified, there were 206 people killed on a single day some of them further family] , my grand dads 15 year old sister . My grand dad lived but had his hand cut off [he was 8 years old at the time] .On my mother side her mother had her village burned twice[first germans , then Russians] . Her 17 old brother was shot , because he went out of the house to look at driving german troopers

.And you claim that nazis or nazi stuff is on the same level ? closest thing you get to stuff like that is 90s balkan wars , somalia and maybe kongo/Ruanda , but it was on a much smaller scale .


But then again you are swedish . you guys have a different look on the whole nazis thing . You traded with them , you joined they ranks . So I can imagine why you think that it is ok to make nazi models .

A question, if a player who was hindu came to your store with an army covered in swastikas would you play them?

you know that this is a wrong asked question . First of all outside of UK there is no large hindu community in europe . Second of all hidus as a group are neutral to most of the world [pakistan/UK/Aus/parts of africa and that is more or less it] . Nazis are not neutral , they never were and it will be a tragic day , if they ever will be .

I think that to solve the problem of the war is brutal thing is to remember the old star trek original series in the episode where the 2 civilisations wage war with computers and their citizens voluntarily kill themselves so they don't suffer damage to their buildings or culture, without the horrors of war there is nothing to make it horrible so it would continue, The horrors of war make for peace.

Also

"You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day."

Laughed at this.

Makumba wrote:
And you claim that nazis or nazi stuff is on the same level ? closest thing you get to stuff like that is 90s balkan wars , somalia and maybe kongo/Ruanda , but it was on a much smaller scale .


But then again you are swedish . you guys have a different look on the whole nazis thing . You traded with them , you joined they ranks . So I can imagine why you think that it is ok to make nazi models .

What an assumption to make!
Actually, I'm half Danish and I have atleast 3 members of my close family that were killed for being in the resistance and being found out. They were killed using guns. The trademark of violence. Well, except for the one that was thrown out of a window.
I claim that the Nazis weren't just marching around with swastikas, everyone in the second world war killed eachother most with weapons much like those we have thrown about on every one of our troops. And in the first world war they were even worse. The disgusting death in the trenches by mustard gas and other inane tools of death that we now pretend to be using on plastic figurines for fun. I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?

The only reasonable person that has replied against it has been this:

 Polonius wrote:
Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.

Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.

that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.

My problem with this is that it's social constructs. And if someone were to say "no, I won't play against it because it has swastikas" I'd completely understand it, but I would still challenge that person to think about what it is he is saying if that's possible without insulting him to his face, because I think it's important that people realise how their reasoning is only because of what society has told them. Guns, weapons and war are completely fine even though logically, by the same logic as Nazi emblems not being fine it shouldn't be. But we've been fed, because of our society supporting wars in general, with the image that this part of it is fine. Many people even turn their nose up at mothers disallowing their children toys that are, or are shaped as, weapons. That's silly, they say.

So yes, I understand the social implications of adult morality and I play by those rules in the social situations that require it. But I don't agree with it. It's just a way to not ruffle feathers. But this is a discussion board, and therefore I invite to discussions. I like to try to make people measure things objectively instead of from their own viewpoint.

 Purifier wrote:
I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?

Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?

Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.

I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.

 Purifier wrote:
I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.

Specific. Political. It's not that complicated.

A gun is generic. It could appear on any side of any conflict. Good, bad, real, fictional, they can have guns. A nazi swastika is NOT a generic symbol, it's a specific reference to a real-world ideology.

A gun is a tool of war. If you're going to play a modern or future wargame, there will be guns of some form. A nazi swastika is NOT an inherent part of war, it's purely a political symbol.


I really don't see why it's so hard to see that guns are just part of a fictional wargame while nazi symbols are a reference to a subject that a lot of people don't want involved in their entertainment.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.

Specific. Political. It's not that complicated.

A gun is generic. It could appear on any side of any conflict. Good, bad, real, fictional, they can have guns. A nazi swastika is NOT a generic symbol, it's a specific reference to a real-world ideology.

A gun is a tool of war. If you're going to play a modern or future wargame, there will be guns of some form. A nazi swastika is NOT an inherent part of war, it's purely a political symbol.


I really don't see why it's so hard to see that guns are just part of a fictional wargame while nazi symbols are a reference to a subject that a lot of people don't want involved in their entertainment.

You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.

 Purifier wrote:
You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.

Sorry, but if you can't see the difference between, say, the US forces liberating occupied Europe and an ideology dedicated to industrialized genocide, and how someone could be perfectly fine with fictional war but not with someone displaying the symbols of the genocidal government that killed their family, well, there's just no hope for you.

Purifier:

Your missing peregrines point. We all acknowledge that war, in general is bad, and that weapons are symbols of that. What the majority of the group take issue with is taking a political symbol (with major negative implications) and plastering it all over some plastic toys.
We all have to live with war, its a fact of life, but people don't need to be reminded of past transgressions better left forgotten. Especially when they have no reason to be dredged up, such as during a game of toy space soldiers

Also, your whole line about playing by societal norms just so that you dont get bothered by people, but then claiming to have some objective special knowledge that lets you bypass the basic reasoning of social convention/morality is:
1. The slippery slope of sociopathic logic
2. A line of hipster/Ayn Rand bull, no one is objective, personal and group experience defines everything. Its why things are natively offensive to huge groups of people, because they become imbued with meaning through past action and usage. You cannot divorce the history of a symbol, object or word from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on the topic as a whole:

The line exists in the same place as it does in terms of the social contract vs free will.
A line has been crossed when player As self expression interferes with player Bs enjoyment of the game.

Dont misunderstand, but everything you do to/with your models is a form of self expression. Although it is good to remember that Aesthetics and Symbolism are two very different things.
Its perfectly ok to co-opt somethings look, but it is frowned upon to apply its meaning where it does not belong.

long thread is long..

the imperium often does exterminatus, how are they any worse than the holocaust?

Sure, theres the whole real vs not real thing... But while the holocaust actually happened, i really doubt any 40k players were actually involved on either sides. So to us, its about as real as exterminatus imo..

Edit: I'm not advocating the nazi's, or dare saying that it didnt happen. But like 40k, these days its just stuff in a book we read, or a movie, or a story we're told. Just like 40k.

Also, black templars... They seem to have a very iron cross-like image painted on them. Yet i see no issue here?

Edit 2: When i watched iron sky at the cinemas, we had one dude storm out yelling at us for enjoying a 'nazi propaganda' movie in this day and age. That got me thinking... If we forget that ww2 happened, or try to ignore that it did, then we're sure to make it happen again... So i really dont care how people paint their models... Its an entertainment hobby, do what entertains you.

Dragonzord wrote:
long thread is long..

the imperium often does exterminatus, how are they any worse than the holocaust?

Sure, theres the whole real vs not real thing... But while the holocaust actually happened, i really doubt any 40k players were actually involved on either sides. So to us, its about as real as exterminatus imo..

Careful with statements like that, some folk may take that very much the wrong way.

As it stands there is a huge difference between the fictional destruction of a planet from space because it would not join your empire/prevent the spread of evil....and the real, systematic and industrialized elimination of a few specific groups of people. Its not the scale of the murder that matters, its the gravity and the intent.

Treating the past like a story weve been told is how we start to forget the lessons we learned.

 Purifier wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.

Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.

that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.

My problem with this is that it's social constructs. And if someone were to say "no, I won't play against it because it has swastikas" I'd completely understand it, but I would still challenge that person to think about what it is he is saying if that's possible without insulting him to his face, because I think it's important that people realise how their reasoning is only because of what society has told them. Guns, weapons and war are completely fine even though logically, by the same logic as Nazi emblems not being fine it shouldn't be. But we've been fed, because of our society supporting wars in general, with the image that this part of it is fine. Many people even turn their nose up at mothers disallowing their children toys that are, or are shaped as, weapons. That's silly, they say.

So yes, I understand the social implications of adult morality and I play by those rules in the social situations that require it. But I don't agree with it. It's just a way to not ruffle feathers. But this is a discussion board, and therefore I invite to discussions. I like to try to make people measure things objectively instead of from their own viewpoint.

Well, yes, the simple, general rules are social constructs. That's a not unimportant realization. It's related to the understanding that the rules aren't always correct. That doesn't mean they are bad, in fact very few moral rules, no matter how simple, will lead a truly immoral end.

What you don't' seem to have grasped is the underlying ethical principle behind those rules. So, you see adherence, or maybe the expectation that others adhere, to the taboo against casual nazism as quaint, and even naive. I mean, it's just a taboo, right?

I could right lengthy paragraph explaining why Nazi symbolism is more offensive in the West than generic depictions of war (and even more so in northern/western europe and the North america), but I don't have the time. But it clearly is. Now, you'd want to argue why that is illogical, and that it's just a "social construct." Maybe you're right (although I don't entirely think you are, although as generations go by the taboo does become less grounded in fear), but that misses some of the point of morality. It's good that you play by rules you don't agree with to avoid ruffling feathers. You would like if people wouldn't just look from their point of view, although you don't mention looking at situations from theirs. And that's the missing component: adherence to the Nazi taboo at this point is about respecting the sensitivities of others.

That level of respect isn't given carte blanche, and not over everything. But enough people are bothered by, say, Nazi IG, to make it a factor. We can go on and on about the artificiality of the taboo, or we can ask ourselves, "what is the good in making this army, and what is the good in making other's more comfortable?"

Moral dilemmas, like a really good Star Trek episode, often come down to balancing tests between opposing values. Here, it's the value that a person should create freely, express himself, and have an individual arm against the value that we should not offend people with depictions of nazism, out universe influences, etc.

The answer to that balancing test is going to be different. A hypothetical person whose grandfather served in the Wehrmacht and want's to create an IG army that reflects that accurately would arrive at a very different answer than a person that thinks putting swastikas on tanks is "edgy."

yeah, edited twice

 Purifier wrote:

You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.

That is incredibly absolutist thinking, to the extent of being nihilist. The problem with a moral argument like that is that it does not alter the moral stakes for aggressive violence.

By this logic, an invading army bent on conquest and destruction is morally equivalent to an army attempting to prevent annihilation. In a world were conflict is inevitable, you might as well be the guy doing the invading and conquering!

Not all evil is equal. All humans engage in some evil. We just judge those that go too far.

What if someone modeled up IG nazis, just for the sake of creating the "ultimate bad guy army", that almost anyone could have fun in stomping the face off of? As in, they did it not because they like nazis, not because they're racist, not for the shock value, but because they want an opponent who will gladly play them and make snarky comments about how they're putting down nazi swine? The best way to make someone feel good about killing someone, is to give them a very good reason for wanting them dead. I'd say having Nazi guard would be a very good way to do that. And perhaps someone just wants to run an army that is so evil in game, that not even Chaos comes close to inspiring as much angry nerd game smack talk? Maybe they have more fun if their opponent is that much more committed to beating them? Maybe they like having their opponents go all out, and feeling like they absolutely, positively, MUST win this battle?

This is my opinion on the matter. If I were to ever run an army like this, it wouldn't be the for the shock value, it wouldn't be because I'm a racist (I'm totally not, btw), it wouldn't be just to make someone mad. It would be because I wanted an army that was so immediately recognizable as evil that my opponent would savor each and every kill from my army like a fine wine. And when playing 40k, one big thing that everyone always forgets is that you should always do your very best to make sure your opponent enjoys the game just as much as you do. And in a weird way, this goes toward that.

Also, as far as fluff goes, who's to say there wouldn't be a space hitler in the year 40,000 who has decided to rebel against the imperium and start a genocidal war? Come to think of it, the imperium is actually quite racist as it is (at least towards aliens...) so it's really not even that big of a leap.

The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.

Also, before anyone says anything ridiculous to me, I am a Jew, and my ancestors were in concentration camps during WW2. And I'm not crazy.

Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.

Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.

Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?

And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.

Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?

And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?

Yes. The patron saint of the Knights Templars was Mary, the patron sainf of the Knights Hospitallers was St. John the Baptist and the patron saints of the Teutonic Knights were Mary, St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. George. As such, painting Jesus on the cross on the Templar banners would be all sorts of wrong.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.

Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?

And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?

Eh, I'd think it's out of place.

Sisters of Battle on the otherhand, being more like old Medieval style Catholicism. "Is that a relic? Tear it apart and spread it to the others, everyone shall have a holy relic of X!" I could understand.

I'd like to point out that neither the swastika nor the nazi ideology are a thing of the past and forgotten. If you field an army of imperial guardsmen carrying aquilas, latin slogans and other roman symbolic, that's funky, but doesn't say anything about your stance on imperialism and slavery.

However, If you model your army to bear swastikas, fascist German slogans and other nazi symbolism, that's you taking a pretty clear stance on racism, mistreatment of minorities, as well as the mass-murder of those during the holocaust. The nazis weren't considered evil because they started and fought a war. You're right on that, many did that before and after them. They are considered evil because of what they've done after the war has long moved on. There were industrial-scale operations in areas far from the front lines doing nothing but killing people for no reason. The scale of their genocide is unprecedented in history, and has little to do with medieval barbarism during wartime. There is a reason why wearing a swastika in public is a crime in Germany.

If you were really interested in representing a historical German WW2 army, your army should not bear a lot of swastikas anyways - because the Reich's army didn't either. If you paint nazi symbolism all over your hobby, you're stating that you think that nazis are awesome - as well as everything they've done.

Maybe you simply can't relate to that, due to different cultural background. How about an ork klan wearing nothing but white hoods and using crucified dark-skinned imperial soldiers as boss poles? That's making about the same statement.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
Purifier:

Your missing peregrines point. We all acknowledge that war, in general is bad, and that weapons are symbols of that. What the majority of the group take issue with is taking a political symbol (with major negative implications) and plastering it all over some plastic toys.
We all have to live with war, its a fact of life, but people don't need to be reminded of past transgressions better left forgotten. Especially when they have no reason to be dredged up, such as during a game of toy space soldiers

Also, your whole line about playing by societal norms just so that you dont get bothered by people, but then claiming to have some objective special knowledge that lets you bypass the basic reasoning of social convention/morality is:
1. The slippery slope of sociopathic logic
2. A line of hipster/Ayn Rand bull, no one is objective, personal and group experience defines everything. Its why things are natively offensive to huge groups of people, because they become imbued with meaning through past action and usage. You cannot divorce the history of a symbol, object or word from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on the topic as a whole:

The line exists in the same place as it does in terms of the social contract vs free will.
A line has been crossed when player As self expression interferes with player Bs enjoyment of the game.

Dont misunderstand, but everything you do to/with your models is a form of self expression. Although it is good to remember that Aesthetics and Symbolism are two very different things.
Its perfectly ok to co-opt somethings look, but it is frowned upon to apply its meaning where it does not belong.

1. Trying to imply I act like a sociopath for keeping an objective mind is really dangerous.
2. a) you obviously haven't read Ayn Rand as it doesn't even remotely relate and b) no one is truly objective but you can try to see things from someone else's perspective, or you can completely ignore trying to do that. Like the Nazis did and every other extremist group in history.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.

There is a difference between a WW2 themed army and a nazi themed army. Just have a look at the Flames of War minis representing Germany's WW2 army. You'll see the difference.

In addition, unlike games like Return to Castle Wulfenstein, Doom or similar games suggest, not every German soldier was a nazi. There are more red badges with swastikas in each of those game than you could find in most large cities.
It's not like you could refuse going to war back then.

 Jidmah wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.

There is a difference between a WW2 themed army and a nazi themed army. Just have a look at the Flames of War minis representing Germany's WW2 army. You'll see the difference.

In addition, unlike games like Return to Castle Wulfenstein, Doom or similar games suggest, not every German soldier was a nazi. There are more red badges with swastikas in each of those game than you could find in most large cities.
It's not like you could refuse going to war back then.

I agree. it comes down to the fact that its your hobby and your army so do with it as you will. If someone refuses to play with you because they are offended then move on.

 UberhAxTHC wrote:

The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.

That's a great point.

It's just a game.

I'd agree that there is less moral signifigance to things in games (but not no signifigance).

The problem is that there is a reason for less moral significance: games simply aren't that big a deal. Which means that the positive value of any action in a game is likewise diminished. So sure, people shouldn't be as offended by a depiction in a game as in, say, the street. But whatever artistic, political, personal, or moral statement made by a person is diminished because it's in a game. If it's really just a game, and really doesn't matter...then why make armies that offend people?

And comparing a Nazi 40k army to Call of Duty or Flames of War is only superficial. Yes, both are depictions of hte german army from WWII in a game. There are many, many differences. COD and FOW both minimize the "nazi element", to a historically accureate level, as is always pointed out. A Nazi 40k army would exaggerate that quality. More importantly: what good is a WWII game without nazis? What is the value to a sci fi game without Nazis?

Personally I love these threads just because everyone has an opinion and it's always different from someone else's.

Do I think slapping swastikas all over your army is racist? You bet and I wouldn't play you. Is theming your army around the WW2 German army racist? No, sometimes people just like the aesthetic qualities and if you had modelled it well and it looked good I would be more than happy to play against you (ie. the DKoK, that's what I'm talking about). Just because you like those aesthetics doesn't mean your racist/nazi/etc. It has nothing to do with personal ideology, just art and what you like looks nice. Sure there are times when these two cases overlap, and that's usually where it's up to us as individuals to make judgement calls.

Personally I draw the line at modelling your Commissar into Col. Klink. Any further and I'll have to have a good think if I want to play against you.

As for you OP, juves as snipers? I think it's a great idea, it fit's perfectly into the established fluff of the 40k universe and you wouldn't have to use those ridiculous ratling models.