Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Purifier wrote:

 Lightcavalier wrote:


1. Trying to imply I act like a sociopath for keeping an objective mind is really dangerous.
2. a) you obviously haven't read Ayn Rand as it doesn't even remotely relate and b) no one is truly objective but you can try to see things from someone else's perspective, or you can completely ignore trying to do that. Like the Nazis did and every other extremist group in history.

1. My appologies for that, you came off a little odd and I was very tired at the time of posting. Anyway here is not the place to discuss that.
2. I am actually very familiar with the works of Ayn Rand. You may have meant something different, but the way you spelled it out was almost pulled straight from Atlas Shrugged. Anyway that is a discussion for another time.

I understand your point about seeing things from an alternate point of view, and that works for most things. Take the Stars and Bars for example, many see it as a symbol of states rights, while others see it as a symbol of racism and slavery. Personally I would enjoy a confederate themed IG army, but other people might get mad. Its understandable. But in what alternate point of view is Nazi symbolism ok?

As well, my comments about the intrinsic value of symbols were not meant as closed minded. Symbols have absolutely no meaning outside of historical context and usage connotation. As such, it is possible for something to be intrinsically offensive...such as the tilted swastika. In literature (and symbols) there is the idea of a triangle which exists between the reader (viewer), the author (creator), and the world. The only thing connecting the Reader and the Author is the text itself and the world. It is through the context of our collective history/culture that we must view anyone communication, and this is how meaning is generated. Its why words change from positives to negatives, or how symbols change from ones of warding to ones of worship etc. Its why people who read Starship Troopers seem to think Heinlein is a Fascist, when he is, in fact, a Libertarian.

To put it simply.
Are you ok with people assuming you are a Nazi sympathizer/supporter?
Do you want your force to say that about you? Really? Because people won't just think its painted up nice.

The world of 40k is perfect to put a brutal dictator as the head of your army but you don't need to carbon copy Nazis.
No great leader has stolen the identity of one who cameabefore them.


I just don't see why you would run the risk of causing such offense.
I was asked to cover or remove my t shirt that had a very bold anti religious statement in GW because it was offending a younger player.
I obliged, as it is my right to wear such an item, but I see no reason to throw it in a kids face when we were both there to have fun.


Personally I would refuse to play a Nazi army.
It's un imaginative and its offensive.
Same goes for something based on the IRA or Taliban or other murder organization.

And I play chaos/demons, so I love to "slaughter the innocent", but that's just on the table, and I in no way condone actually talking a life.
That's where I see the line.

 The_Solitaire wrote:
Personally I love these threads just because everyone has an opinion and it's always different from someone else's.

Do I think slapping swastikas all over your army is racist? You bet and I wouldn't play you. Is theming your army around the WW2 German army racist? No, sometimes people just like the aesthetic qualities and if you had modelled it well and it looked good I would be more than happy to play against you (ie. the DKoK, that's what I'm talking about). Just because you like those aesthetics doesn't mean your racist/nazi/etc. It has nothing to do with personal ideology, just art and what you like looks nice. Sure there are times when these two cases overlap, and that's usually where it's up to us as individuals to make judgement calls.

Personally I draw the line at modelling your Commissar into Col. Klink. Any further and I'll have to have a good think if I want to play against you.

As for you OP, juves as snipers? I think it's a great idea, it fit's perfectly into the established fluff of the 40k universe and you wouldn't have to use those ridiculous ratling models.

Best thing I ever saw, and probably where the line should be drawn....Tallarn Mujaheddin, with the Demo charge specialist troopers as suicide bombers. Incredibly un-PC, and has not seen the table since 2000, but it was done up by a Major in the US Army.

Again to the OP...juve snipers... totally ok, and very fitting.

It all comes down to a personal level. Me, I'm morally bankrupt so if you want to field nazi's, ninja's, barbies, dildos, or any other stupid thing. Fine. But I am also a purist. If it doesn't belong in the 40k universe I will smash that model off the table with all my firepower to the point of it losing me the game. Example: My little Pony Nobz on Bikes(Ponies)

Well some very interesting thoughts put forwards.

The jibes I got for wanting to use 'juves' were in good fun, just thought I would clarify that.

The Ork army was actually a great parody, Orkifying (for want of a better word) the theme. But then skinheads and Orks have a lot in common, imo, and such a parody is a good way of poking fun at them. It was some years back though, and haven't seen it since.

The line seems to me to be down to personal perceptions, taste and sensitivity. As far as I see it, as long as there is a particular idea and/or narrative, anything goes in 40K.

Edit:

Okay, a friend has just put forward an idea that even I would say is crossing the line, as far as what I would even consider playing against let alone have the audacity to put together. Lets just say it is a Slaanesh theme and leave it at that.

The scale of their genocide is unprecedented in history, and has little to do with medieval barbarism during wartime. There is a reason why wearing a swastika in public is a crime in Germany.

You mean just like people can't model things based around Stalion's Soviet Union?

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm

Or Mao Ze-Dong of Red China? ?

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html

Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.

It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.

The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.

Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.

That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

 Polonius wrote:
Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.

It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.

The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.

Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.

That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

I am not sure that agree, but then again I am from a country that was in it from the beginning. The first French republic was genocidal, and the Americans had no qualms about siding with them.

As I say, it must be a perspective thing.

What an assumption to make!
I claim that the Nazis weren't just marching around with swastikas, everyone in the second world war killed eachother most with weapons much like those we have thrown about on every one of our troops. And in the first world war they were even worse. The disgusting death in the trenches by mustard gas and other inane tools of death that we now pretend to be using on plastic figurines for fun. I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?

Um, there isn't mustard gas in 40k on our plastic figurines Inane tools of death? Mostly it was gas, rifles, artillery, machine guns, not some queer spinning saw blade launcher. And we don't throw guns like the ones IRL on our troops (unless you were referring to IRL but modern time), lasguns don't exist right now.

The images of WWII fade with each generation, the more recent event is 9 11. it certainly wouldn't be insulting to use a Tallarn army in battle (that's actually what I do)
because the Taliban had no real uniform. And 9/11 was terrible, I was only a toddler at the time, but just a couple days ago in history we watched some 9/11 videos where I felt kinda sickened. Still, Tallarns are A-Ok.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 UberhAxTHC wrote:
Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.

Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?

And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?

Yes. The patron saint of the Knights Templars was Mary, the patron sainf of the Knights Hospitallers was St. John the Baptist and the patron saints of the Teutonic Knights were Mary, St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. George. As such, painting Jesus on the cross on the Templar banners would be all sorts of wrong.

OHHH HISTORICAL BURN!

seriously good point walrus.


To the original point war is not evil. The people who start a war for selfish or evil reasons are. Hitler was evil because he wanted to create a large purely Aryan state and he was going to do it through genocide. Also those who committed crimes against humanity under orders from the Nazi party structure are evil. Stalin was evil because he exterminated millions of his own people because of his paranoia. The Japanese military command of World war was evil because they executed prisoners and then worked them to death in condition similar to Nazi death camps. Saddam hussein was Evil because his men hunted and murdered Kurds for no reason. There are a million more examples of this throughout history.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?

Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.

You could say the same thing about the Aquila. In fact, I do.

The Imperial Aquilla (from 40k) is specifically modified and is an established part of the 40k universe.

The Swastika is not.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.

heyy, i hadnt even thought of that. Thats a very damn good point

apologies for that mistake!

Not to mention that the eagle as a symbol is used by at least 25 modern countries. As well as countless historical ones. And the 2 headed eagle is a Russian thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dragonzord wrote:

 Lightcavalier wrote:
Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.

heyy, i hadnt even thought of that. Thats a very damn good point

apologies for that mistake!

Always a pleasure.

 Polonius wrote:
Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.

It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.

The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.

Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.

That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.

I feel really self rightous saying this, but that sounds quite a bit racist to me. It's like you can just shrug off genocide if it's done by "those primitive folks"
I have quite a few Chinese friends. They are not getting mass murdered over there, you know? It's not a democracy, but that doesn't mean their leader has his foot on their throats.
I can't help but see people as the same either way. If the chinese are capable of it, so are we. I don't need the nazis to tell me that.

DonerStoom wrote:
To put it simply.

No great leader has stolen the identity of one who cameabefore them.

Hercules -> Leonidas -> Minos -> Alexander the Great -> Napoleon (He worshiped Alexander) -> Hitler (He also worshiped Alexander) -> Stalin -> Pol Pot -> Kim Jong ill -> Kim Jong un (His son) -> The Bush Dynasty -> Obama -> The Next President.

(That's just one line.. there are thousands)

Here's another:

Horus (the Egyptian God of the sun), 3000BCE (messiah of the sun), died brought into the underworld and is resurrected each morning -> Krishna (Hindu God of around 1500BCE) Born of a virgin, -> Mythra (of Zoroastrianism ~ 2000-1000 BCE) allowed people to enter into heaven after a sacred blood sacrifice, also became deity of the sun -> Buddha (400BCE) Meditated for 40 days and 40 nights to discover the universal truth, ->Jesus Christ, The Messiah, son of God born of a virgin who by his blood and flesh his followers may enter heaven, left into the desert (and presumably met buddists after 40 days and nights in the desert. Died, went to the underworld and was risen.

So no, EVERY great leader has stolen the identity of those who came before them. After all, where do you think the inspiration to do great things came from in the first place?

 Purifier wrote:
[I feel really self rightous saying this, but that sounds quite a bit racist to me. It's like you can just shrug off genocide if it's done by "those primitive folks"
I have quite a few Chinese friends. They are not getting mass murdered over there, you know? It's not a democracy, but that doesn't mean their leader has his foot on their throats.
I can't help but see people as the same either way. If the chinese are capable of it, so are we. I don't need the nazis to tell me that.

Not to get sanctimonious, but you need to take your own advice, and look at things from the perspective of others.

Virtually everybody is racist to a varying degree. And you don't need to be a racist to hold the completely rational viewpoint that the USSR in 1930 is radically different from your own country. By and large, people are willing to think that other groups are capable of worse things then their own group. Look at political parties, or high school cliques, or any time groups compare themselves to each other.

And even if you were some sort of supremely enlightened being utterly without bias, that makes you such a rarity that to imagine that your expeirence is anytyhing like the norm is laughable. Although, as a general rule, the phrase "I don't have any biases" is simply never true.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frakhead wrote:
I am not sure that agree, but then again I am from a country that was in it from the beginning. The first French republic was genocidal, and the Americans had no qualms about siding with them.

As I say, it must be a perspective thing.

The first French republic was neither industrial nor educated. I have more in common with the average resident in Tehran today than I do France in 1800.

 Polonius wrote:
the phrase "I don't have any biases" is simply never true.

I have loads of biases. Never said I didn't. But I don't shrug off genocide as "those other people"
I still think your distancing of yourself from anything that doesn't fit your argument is REALLY weird. "Doesn't count, because it's not white supremist" or whatever. Then how about Ku Klux Klan? It's been repeated that it's not the war but the politics that apparently makes the thing reprehensible, and I think most people indeed would be offended by a Ku Klux Klan army, so then that is the equal of Hitler in the way you are describing it, or do you mean that their death toll wasn't high enough?

As many people here have already said the line is never the same. The thing is this is a game and people will make up an army of what ever they want.

As for the nazi army it all depends on the guy playin them. If he is a skin head then yeah its like cmon dude. But if its just some guy who did it because he love the colors and uniforms then aure why the hell not. If he can give a good story behind the colors and symbols go for it. Im not going to lie i think the old nazi colors and uniforms are one of the shapest uniforms in history. Does this mean i practice nazi ideals? No i just appreciate they looked good. It my be a little distasteful but hey they can do what they want.

On a side note dildo difiler= all the lawlz

 Purifier wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
the phrase "I don't have any biases" is simply never true.

I have loads of biases. Never said I didn't. But I don't shrug off genocide as "those other people"

That's noble of you.

I didn't say people shrug off genocide. I'm saying that it's easy to look at something like, say, the Armenian Genocide, and see the ways in which the society commiting it is different from our own. It's harder to do that with Nazi atrocities. What you do isn't horribly relevant, it's what the people being offended, or looking to avoid offending others, think. And it's a pretty well established fact in sociology that race, religion, and culture are huge factors in how a person relates personally to the actions of another.

I still think your distancing of yourself from anything that doesn't fit your argument is REALLY weird. "Doesn't count, because it's not white supremist" or whatever. Then how about Ku Klux Klan? It's been repeated that it's not the war but the politics that apparently makes the thing reprehensible, and I think most people indeed would be offended by a Ku Klux Klan army, so then that is the equal of Hitler in the way you are describing it, or do you mean that their death toll wasn't high enough?

I have no idea what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure I've never used the term white supremicist. You seem oddly fixed on racism.

There many ways that nations differ. Race is one, but language, culture, religion, etc. are all factors. Yes, most Westerners can't relate well to China in the 1950s. That's not because of racism (we can relate well ot Japan and South Korea today), but because the culture is shockingly different. Same with 1930's USSR. Russians are white people, but they have a distinct culture from Western Europe/America.

The KKK actually buttresses my point: for a person in, say, Sweden, it might not be horribly offensive. That's a country without a long history of lynching. In the US, we're only a few generations out from slavery, and people still alive remember the nadir of racism in the 1920s. I worked with a black attorney who grew up during the Civil Rights era. The memory of the KKK is very much alive in the US. The actual Klan is, technically, alive, but not like it used to be. Still, it's offensive because it actually happened. Here, in the US. Intelligent, prominent, and respected men violently enforced racist ideology.

Would it be a raw and vivid thing even in Canada? Probably not. People might think it in poor taste, but there isn't the fear and guilt still alive in the community.

You can have a similar style to the SS without drawing Nazi symbols on everything.
If you start drawing Nazi symbols on everything you have gone too far.
Unless of course it's a WWII game...

Ok well to make this thread short no matter what you do or paint some one will find something wrong with it. Paint what you want and hate what you want at the end of the day does the color of the model really effect the fun of the game?

/thread

The main thing is that there are fluff established regimes that directly copy recent horrible times. Stalinist Russia was worse than Hitler's Germany, because at least Hitler convinced people to believe in his reason, Stalin just straight up shot you. But nobody bitches about playing Valhallans. In WHFB people base armies on Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler and nobody bitches about it. People are just unnecessarily touchy about Hitler/Nazis

If you want to play an army of genocidal sociopaths, play The Purge. Those crazy motherfethers systematically exterminated 14 billion people in less than a month.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ok well to make this thread short no matter what you do or paint some one will find something wrong with it. Paint what you want and hate what you want at the end of the day does the color of the model really effect the fun of the game?

/thread

Really its as simple as.
If you have to ask yourself for justification " WILL THIS OFFEND SOMEONE?''

the answer is probably 99.99 % of the time yes. It's common sense and part of what it is to be an adult.

In additon to the said point.

As much as "what I do reflects upon me and not others", this kind of attitude is wrong, for it does reflect on
the store for allowing you to have it in the shop displaying it to the public. It reflects on the people in the shop
as coming off as o.k. or ignorant of that person haveing such an offensive symbolism. And it reflects on the community
as a whole as "Hey i went into that shop with the awesome looking models but when I went in there, they were laughing at the
idea of dildo models, and allowing nazi schemed armies. As much as I like the models, I dont want to join a community which protects
the "freedom of speech" for something which is deemed so offensive. YEA YOUR'E RIGHT MAN (I'LL MAKE SURE TO TELL THE GUYS")
and word spreads and the hobby dies.

 The_Solitaire wrote:
(ie. the DKoK, that's what I'm talking about)

To clarify: DKoK are based off WWI French uniforms, with some elements of other WWI stuff thrown in (as you'd expect for an army that's essentially WWI in space). Steel Legion are the closest thing to a WWII German army, but they obviously just use some of the uniform and equipment style with none of the political designs.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
The main thing is that there are fluff established regimes that directly copy recent horrible times. Stalinist Russia was worse than Hitler's Germany, because at least Hitler convinced people to believe in his reason, Stalin just straight up shot you. But nobody bitches about playing Valhallans.

That's because the Valhallans don't have the political symbols. They use some of the uniform elements, but there's nothing at all in the model design that says "Stalinism".

In WHFB people base armies on Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler and nobody bitches about it. People are just unnecessarily touchy about Hitler/Nazis

That's because you're talking about people from 500 years ago. Unless you research your family tree in detail you're incredibly unlikely to know that one of them killed someone in your family, and you're incredibly unlikely to meet someone who has personal ties to those events and would be offended by the army.

This is NOT the case with the nazi army. There are still people alive right now who survived the nazi genocide. There are still people alive right now who lost parents/children/etc to the nazi genocide. There are still many people alive right now who have a strong emotional connection to those events, and good reason to be bothered by someone displaying nazi images.

 Peregrine wrote:
. There are still people alive right now who survived the nazi genocide. There are still people alive right now who lost parents/children/etc to the nazi genocide.

I work with a guy that lost a big chunk of his family tree in the Holocaust. His father came over from Poland in the 30's, left a bunch of brothers behind...

I can understand why he'd be a bit touchy about the subject.

There's a distinct line between an army theme and direct support. No, a Nazi-themed 40k army isn't in good taste, but it's not racist. There's nothing inherently racist about the look of a Nazi uniform. Their ideology and actions? Definitely. But it's not racist, just like it's not racist to play any Imperial army - because that faction, albeit fictional, is extremely racist - to the point of genocide, even. That doesn't make the player racist, not unless, say, "I play Black Templars because I relate to how much they want to kill other races". Totally different. Playing Tyranids doesn't mean I actually want to eat everyone, nor would playing Sisters of Battle make me a devout Catholic or something.

However; dressing up your army as Nazis/some other real-world faction is silly. The first thing that would cross my mind would be "Why?". Sure, the ideology fits into 40k, and the Nazis have no monopoly on the colours grey and black. But as actual Nazis? What's the point? It doesn't fit thematically into 40k. MLP armies, Halo armies, whatever - I can understand those, because they have fandoms, and they aren't meant to be taken seriously. Unless you're a Nazi fan (which I highly doubt any painters of Nazi-themed armies actually are, and the theme doesn't suggest as such), there's little motivation to do something like this. If you're doing it for lulz and shock value then you're a tasteless fool. I would experience similar indifference with any other faction, say the IRA - which calls for an anecdote.

I live in Northern Ireland. I also run an RP site. An American member of said RP site (the setting is on an entirely different world, mind, so the following makes even less sense) wrote a character application, listing his character as having "Real IRA training". I didn't get offended or angry. I laughed, actually, because it's ridiculous. Firstly - what training? Unlike what people seem to believe, the Real IRA are not a super-awesome spec ops organisation. Secondly - it makes absolutely no sense in context. There's no IRA of any kind in our setting, and there's no reason to be inspired by them to make one.

The only conceivable method of having a legitimate reason for having a Nazi-themed IG army is if you're a hardcore WWII tabletop gamer (games which I will never understand the appeal of) and you play Germany. Even so, it only shows a terrible lack of imagination and attachment on your part.

Finally - this thread is stupid. 'Juvie' snipers are a-okay. Doesn't a codex even talk about child soldiers? Besides, in 40k, the rules of war are totally out the window. What happens to the civilians when the manly Imperial Guard or Space Marines fail to defend a world from Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, Necrons? In situations like those, there's nothing wrong with a child using a gun - it's simply practical. Like in LoTR when they get every boy who could possibly fight at all because they're extremely desperate and if they lose, they all die anyway. Young soldiers fits the Imperial Guard just fine. Nazis? Not so much.

I'd also like to point out that the swastika was not created by the Nazis nor is it a Nazi symbol. The Japanese didn't invent the circle, either, but that is also part of their flag.

What really gets me is when people write stories and portray things like rape as totally okay, even good. 40k fanfiction makes my skin crawl. Background fluff for an army that is totally not Nazi-themed but portrays Nazi ideology as a good thing is different - and I'm not talking about "Well done soldier, you killed some Eldar, Eldar are scum for being Eldar", because that's simply how the Imperium works, and whether or not the character whose POV the story is written from agrees or disagrees is immaterial.

Also, I just want to say - Purifier, I love you.

Eh, without the red bands with swaticas on their arms, I'd totally field a SS looking like army.

Why? 'Cause it's hard to get classier than Hugo Boss designs on the battlefield~