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 ph34r wrote:
BA ML devastators that people have been known to field run 130p, while vanilla SM devastators that are almost never fielded cost 150p; a cost difference of 15%.

As a Dark Angels player, I would absolutely love 150 pts missile launcher devs, seeing as a 5-man squad with 4 ML for me would instead be 170 pts.

(edited for a couple of typos)

 Carnage43 wrote:

tuiman wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is it just me or is the forgefiend basically a worse GK rifleman? That's kind of underwhelming.

How is it worse,it has twice as many shots

How is it worse? MATH, that's why.

Roughly same survivability....

The Forgefiend I'm 90% sure is a daemon engine, with the ability to heal itself in the new codex, making it slightly more survivable.

I wouldn't be so apprehensive about the Thousand Sons this early, fellas. I think things are about to be great. I am usually pessimistic but I think it's time to consider the new toys which might make Tzeentch CSM lists better.

My #1 goal is to make a nice simple list without having to resort to Tzeentch Demon allies.

Let's face it. Some CSM people are taking allies just to SURVIVE until turn 4 in competitive environments.

I'm tentatively happy with what I'm reading. I can only assume that some things are off and others will either be spot on or close to what they should be.

If the eight shot, S8 is the size of a defiler, I can't say that I'm all that interested. Maybe it has some crazy special rules that we haven't been made aware of which will make it worth taking. If it doesn't, I have a hard time seeing it getting a lot of use.

Updated the tracker.

Where is this tracker pretre?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/448304.page

 Brometheus wrote:
I wouldn't be so apprehensive about the Thousand Sons this early, fellas. I think things are about to be great. I am usually pessimistic but I think it's time to consider the new toys which might make Tzeentch CSM lists better.

Just to add to that I think Thousand Sons are more about their sorcerers than their rubric warriors in this edition. I really think that's where the emphasis of Thousand Son armies are going to end up especially with psyker abilities rumored being a bigger deal in this book. So contextually we could very easily see underpriced Sorcerers within overpriced squads of Rubric warriors, where the cost balances out.

Nvs wrote:
I honestly can't believe how terrible the Thousand Sons have turned out for another edition now. I'm sorry, but S&P/R isn't that valuable for the unit when you consider they all have bolters anyway with the new rapid fire rules. They're still horribly overpriced for what they bring to the table even with AP3 bolters.

And what's Icon of Fire? Is that just what gives them soulfire? So that isn't even a free upgrade? Come on... they're crap. And there's probably nothing else in the book with a Tzeentch flare other than the HQ choice.

For shame.

The psyker in the unit will make or break the Thousand sons, depending on what the powers are. Also Thousand Sons will be pretty sweet, considering that you can Focus Fire on marines and generally cover has gone down. If they still have their 4+ invulnerable save they are going to be really hard to beat. The reduction in cover really helped them. But again, the big thing will be the Psyker.

Older rumours said daemon engines like the dragon, defiler, and presumably Forge Fiends (they were unnamed at that point) got both the Daemon AND the "It will not die" special rules. So that's something to consider.

You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

I just want Veteran skills and viable Fast Attack choices. Bells and whistles are nice but good core Troops is what I'm after and a full FOC army instead of max HQ/Heavy and whatever else.

Excited to see the reality and hoping there is not too much focus on new stuff and more focus on just getting a viable army with more than one basic build.

The dragon is looking a lot less exciting now that it's only got one instance of the overclocked autocannon and a close combat attack every couple turns for 170 points. No nightscythe or vendetta are you. Maybe if the hellcannon is twin linked or something.

Invulnerable saves on demon engines might be a saving grace if we see more anti jink weapons. Might also make the Forgemonster worth playing.

I'm wondering what on earth prompted the price increase on the Defiler. Most people considered it overpriced before and they majorly bumped it in price when it's going to be (from the looks of it) significantly less survivable than it was previously, nor killier/shootier.

Nvs wrote:
You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

To me the biggest problem is that The Thousand Sons ever since 2nd edition have been totally antithetical to what Tzeentch is: change. With the exception of psykers, nothing about them is even remotely Tzeentchian. He's all about change, but the cult troops that represent him are, what? Unchanged except for they're now dust. In the lore, Tzeentch is all about mutation and crazy stuff like that, but the Cult troops for him aren't even mutated at all, because they can't be.

I wouldn't mind if there was some major retcons back to what the Thousand Sons were, and that is heavily mutated warriors of Chaos. To represent that, they get a free Chaos mutation or whatever. We'll see, probably next decade.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nvs wrote:
You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

To me the biggest problem is that The Thousand Sons ever since 2nd edition have been totally antithetical to what Tzeentch is: change. With the exception of psykers, nothing about them is even remotely Tzeentchian. He's all about change, but the cult troops that represent him are, what? Unchanged except for they're now dust. In the lore, Tzeentch is all about mutation and crazy stuff like that, but the Cult troops for him aren't even mutated at all, because they can't be.

I wouldn't mind if there was some major retcons back to what the Thousand Sons were, and that is heavily mutated warriors of Chaos. To represent that, they get a free Chaos mutation or whatever. We'll see, probably next decade.

He's not always about change, sometimes he's about plotting, and the Thousand Sons was a plot to Magnus over his and show him who truly is the master of chess, and get Ahriman to start doing some interesting work outside of their world.

Vaktathi wrote:I'm wondering what on earth prompted the price increase on the Defiler. Most people considered it overpriced before and they majorly bumped it in price when it's going to be (from the looks of it) significantly less survivable than it was previously, nor killier/shootier.

Probably the "it will not die" rule addition... though I generally think that helps not hurts. I'm hoping it has more going for it than that as well, since its presently the most distinctly Chaos vehicle.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nvs wrote:
You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

To me the biggest problem is that The Thousand Sons ever since 2nd edition have been totally antithetical to what Tzeentch is: change. With the exception of psykers, nothing about them is even remotely Tzeentchian. He's all about change, but the cult troops that represent him are, what? Unchanged except for they're now dust. In the lore, Tzeentch is all about mutation and crazy stuff like that, but the Cult troops for him aren't even mutated at all, because they can't be.

I wouldn't mind if there was some major retcons back to what the Thousand Sons were, and that is heavily mutated warriors of Chaos. To represent that, they get a free Chaos mutation or whatever. We'll see, probably next decade.

He's not always about change, sometimes he's about plotting, and the Thousand Sons was a plot to Magnus over his and show him who truly is the master of chess, and get Ahriman to start doing some interesting work outside of their world.

It's an interesting story fluffwise but it never really works out game-play wise which is more what my post was concerned with. Could even make it so that Ahriman's rubric mutates the 1Ksons even more, except for those who are Psykers. Now that would be cool and would be easier to represent in a game as opposed to automatons.

Heck, let's look at the different iterations:
1st: Mutated warriors, granted extra magic/psychic points to psykers (were actually pretty useful)
2nd: were spirit warriors, basically daemons in powered armor (never played 2nd but these guys seem pretty terrible)
3rd: were dust, couldn't be hurt by str4 weapons or less (again, seemed too expensive and not that useful, just more expensive bolter marines)
3.5: Any army with 2 wounds has a lot going for it
4th: 4+ invul and ap3 bolters, but again a bit too expensive and one-use
5th: probably the same as 4th, oh and 3.5, oh and 3rd, in the sense that they're not too useful

Too many weird ideas on how to make the unit actually work=the unit never ends up working. Ironically the biggest change has been their special abilities but they always ended up not worth it.

I feel like Chicken Little at the moment. I fear that codex creep is going to be exponentially bad in this edition.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nvs wrote:
You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

To me the biggest problem is that The Thousand Sons ever since 2nd edition have been totally antithetical to what Tzeentch is: change. With the exception of psykers, nothing about them is even remotely Tzeentchian. He's all about change, but the cult troops that represent him are, what? Unchanged except for they're now dust. In the lore, Tzeentch is all about mutation and crazy stuff like that, but the Cult troops for him aren't even mutated at all, because they can't be.

That's the whole point of the Thousand Sons though, outside of their Sorcerers!

So, maybe some other CSM's devoted to Tzeentch can give you what you're looking for, but not the Thousand Sons!

Anyway...

The more crazy stuff in here the better - it will make a 'counts as' Pre-Heresy Army an easier thing to do.

With IG allies, of course.

 oni wrote:
I feel like Chicken Little at the moment. I fear that codex creep is going to be exponentially bad in this edition.

I don't think so... we have one of the most conservative rule writers and the point costs seem to be weighing heavily against benefits... in other words things appear either balanced or effective as they were. Now then again we haven't seen everything yet.

 Lucre wrote:
The dragon is looking a lot less exciting now that it's only got one instance of the overclocked autocannon and a close combat attack every couple turns for 170 points. No nightscythe or vendetta are you. Maybe if the hellcannon is twin linked or something.

Invulnerable saves on demon engines might be a saving grace if we see more anti jink weapons. Might also make the Forgemonster worth playing.

A D3 + 1 S10 hits on side armor is bad how? This pretty much downs fliers in one swoop. Fliers of any variety, then you figure using this attack puts it behind enemy fliers who then can't retaliate given there 90 to turn it seems pretty unhinged to me. If it hits any unit with this, you just met your next triple auto include. Oh and it is BS 4 shooting at the ground targets after it vectors so its possibly wrecking two vehicles a turn pretty consistently all while never having to jink, always being able to fire and regening HP as a flier........ So bad for 170


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nvs wrote:
You guys are absolutely right. So long as the chaos minor spell list isn't awful, and all options on the D6 would be good in their own way, then maybe the unit will pull ahead. But given the current tables I'd be hard pressed to consider the unit even with the reroll option stated in this thread.

To me the biggest problem is that The Thousand Sons ever since 2nd edition have been totally antithetical to what Tzeentch is: change. With the exception of psykers, nothing about them is even remotely Tzeentchian. He's all about change, but the cult troops that represent him are, what? Unchanged except for they're now dust. In the lore, Tzeentch is all about mutation and crazy stuff like that, but the Cult troops for him aren't even mutated at all, because they can't be.

I wouldn't mind if there was some major retcons back to what the Thousand Sons were, and that is heavily mutated warriors of Chaos. To represent that, they get a free Chaos mutation or whatever. We'll see, probably next decade.

Remember when warp drain killed rubric marines in 2nd. Maybe they will have rule so that if/when the sorcerer perils you lose a d3 rubrics instead of him taking the hit. That would at least be a cool upgrade IMO. Pure wishlisting there btw.

One rumor has Ahriman with Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Tzeentch.

Another has him with "Almost every Discipline".

I feel like *if* he in fact has access to Divination as a Lvl 4, we will see more Thousand Sons on the board.

Perfect Timing? Yes please. Failing that, Prescience? Also "yes".

Gotta say, Ahriman's entry is the first page I am finding when the book is in my hands, gentlemen.

The rumors of the Tzeentch power list earlier were really discouraging. Just lots of boring, weak flame powers and nothing regarding prescience, battlefield control or crazy Tzeentchian stuff. Here's hoping it was a dud rumor.

As for people fearing codex creep, I don't see it...yet. There's still much to learn. However, so far there are no uber-cheap, effective option that you can smap: no Grey Hunter or Vendetta or Rifleman dread.

Until we know the true basic cost/ablities of the naked units and the cost/abilities of them kitted out in all the best gear/marks, we can't say it's overpowered. So far, it seems to be about Blood Angels level of competitiveness.

 Carnage43 wrote:

tuiman wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is it just me or is the forgefiend basically a worse GK rifleman? That's kind of underwhelming.

How is it worse,it has twice as many shots

How is it worse? MATH, that's why.

Roughly same survivability.

GK rifleman, BS4, S8, 4 shots, TL. Average 3.52 hits against non-fliers. 38.35 points per hit
Chaos shooty thing, BS3, S8, 8 shots. Average 4 hits against non-fliers. 50 points per hit

Riflemen do it ~33% more points efficiently, aka, you can take 3 riflemen for the cost of 2 chaos shooty engines.

The chaos one has higher potential damage, and the demon forged rule MIGHT allow it to burst it's damage to a higher level over 2-3 turns (averaged out), but it's strictly inferior on a point for point basis.

Ph34r knows math, do not doubt the man.

Ph34r knows how to make assumptions without all the data, that is not math.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I'm wondering what on earth prompted the price increase on the Defiler. Most people considered it overpriced before and they majorly bumped it in price when it's going to be (from the looks of it) significantly less survivable than it was previously, nor killier/shootier.

Probably the "it will not die" rule addition... though I generally think that helps not hurts. I'm hoping it has more going for it than that as well, since its presently the most distinctly Chaos vehicle.

Its also getting the daemon treatment (what ever that is). So maybe invulnerable saves, regeneration, maybe free marks. Who knows really. Its one of the things I'm most interested in seeing. I just hope it doesn't turn out like the Carnifex. Dramatically over priced to solely push the two newer plastic models.

 Red Corsair wrote:


A D3 + 1 S10 hits on side armor is bad how? This pretty much downs fliers in one swoop. Fliers of any variety, then you figure using this attack puts it behind enemy fliers who then can't retaliate given there 90 to turn it seems pretty unhinged to me. If it hits any unit with this, you just met your next triple auto include. Oh and it is BS 4 shooting at the ground targets after it vectors so its possibly wrecking two vehicles a turn pretty consistently all while never having to jink, always being able to fire and regening HP as a flier........ So bad for 170

My issue there is that those rumors have been really sporadic. I'm not sure how that stuff will work. All I know is that it's 170 points for a unit that will be doing things 1/2 of it's turns on the table and seems to have a lot of it's attributes into (what might be) very gimmicky anti flier shenanigans. I have no idea if it'll be able to regenerate or how many attacks it'll be able to perform on the zoom, I'm hoping it'll just resemble the FMC except it's only ever allowed to attack fliers or skimmers. I'm Also not entirely sure how new tactics regarding flier movement are going to effect the game, I've seen some neat plays so far with DE Bombers but so far I think we all have a lot of practicing to do before we know how to set up traps or avoid them properly. I'm also assuming that the Dragon doesn't have vector dancer and will give it the same vulnerabilities and limitations.

I think you're right though, I'm being too quick to judge, given the rules are probably going to be very interesting on this one and rip for manipulation. I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around what a flier that is mainly there to kill fliers (and maybe a transport or two) is worth to me. 2x? 3x? I'm not sure. The lack of transport ability changes my view of fliers altogether, and it's not as if it was providing saturation or access to a certain type of fire I didn't have before like with my doom scythes.

RE: Thousand sons
I always thought of them (when it comes to what I think their flavorful use was) would be something like the immortals from third edition that surrounded your Necron lord. Their guns weren't anything to write home about, but they were always shooting, they could come up out of no where, and they provided a very hearty platform for your wizardy sorta guy. They just seem to suit the silver tide in my concept of them. And then you've got tricks and demons to back it up.

I think they should be cheap. maybe forget some of these tricksy special rules, they've got the sorcerer for that. Make them a little more robust and give them the ability to march forward and put up a reasonable hail of shots for their points while the sorc does his work and I'd be happy.

A thousand son's dread would be very cool as well. Giving you a choice to have it as a sorcerer or all is dust model.

 Brother SRM wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
So with the new WD confirmed for 22/23, I am guessing leaks in the next couple of days? I expect this to be my face next week

Typically we've been getting leaks up to a week early, so keep your eyes peeled the 15th and onward.

I thought the new format WD was super-tip-top-ultra-secret and even among the design team only a tiny handful of people had got hold of it? I suspect we may not see any substantial leaks at all from this issue, since it's fairly certain GW will want maximum impact for the relaunch date and Gamesday sales.

They've even got that new WD design team on lockdown, because I have seen a few of their blogs.

Nowhere do they mention anything about the WD mag.

...and yes. Tsons dreadnoughts would be cool but I am more interested in making the psykers actually amazing.

Any word on a new basic CSM troops sprue? I compared the new Chosen models from DV to my 2002 (?) CSM models and just the size/scale disparity is alarming (not even mentioning detail and sculpt quality). Even some of the cultists are larger than those old models.