Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:

 unmercifulconker wrote:
So with the new WD confirmed for 22/23, I am guessing leaks in the next couple of days? I expect this to be my face next week

Typically we've been getting leaks up to a week early, so keep your eyes peeled the 15th and onward.

I thought the new format WD was super-tip-top-ultra-secret and even among the design team only a tiny handful of people had got hold of it? I suspect we may not see any substantial leaks at all from this issue, since it's fairly certain GW will want maximum impact for the relaunch date and Gamesday sales.

Hmm well lets hope pics somehow find their way onto this forum

However if this is to be atleast the 10 day countdown starts now

Only rumors of an upgrade sprue. Not sure what else has been said beyond that

themonk wrote:
Any word on a new basic CSM troops sprue? I compared the new Chosen models from DV to my 2002 (?) CSM models and just the size/scale disparity is alarming (not even mentioning detail and sculpt quality). Even some of the cultists are larger than those old models.

The current CSM models are from 2006, when the last Chaos codex came out. It's highly unlikely considering their age, and Carl from The Independent Characters saw the codex and said he didn't see new Chaos Marine models. Word's still out on upgrade sprues or a Chosen kit.

For some reason I am really excited and wanting Tzeench to be done justice this go around. I have 60 KB and a Giant Defiler KB conversion for a khorne cult with Bikes as well and NOW I find myself wanting so go the opposite direction. Chaos really is an abyss for modellers to fall into ha ha ha. Secretly I have been ok with them delaying a bit as I have no idea how I will finish my other armies with the new toys being released.... !st world problems.

Strangely quiet on the Slanesh front isn't it?

No worries. Unless CSM are really cheap, I doubt many people will run them when you can spam the hell out of cultists. I'd rather have 30 wounds for 100 points than 7 or 8 wounds with an armor save.

"Icon of flame"? I guess that's the new none god specific Icons they were talking about.

 Red Corsair wrote:
For some reason I am really excited and wanting Tzeench to be done justice this go around. I have 60 KB and a Giant Defiler KB conversion for a khorne cult with Bikes as well and NOW I find myself wanting so go the opposite direction. Chaos really is an abyss for modellers to fall into ha ha ha. Secretly I have been ok with them delaying a bit as I have no idea how I will finish my other armies with the new toys being released.... !st world problems.

Strangely quiet on the Slanesh front isn't it?

Well. Sept the rumours about the changes to noise weapons(They are now Savo and Ignore Cover), and that noise marines will be going down in price.
=o

Goresaw wrote:
No worries. Unless CSM are really cheap, I doubt many people will run them when you can spam the hell out of cultists. I'd rather have 30 wounds for 100 points than 7 or 8 wounds with an armor save.

Better special/heavy weapons options, champion equipment and rhinos are good reasons to keep a pair or CSM squads among that cultist swarms.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Strangely quiet on the Slanesh front isn't it?

Which is really scaring me because I have an EC army that is just begging to be played again.

I remember and early rumor that Slannesh bikers were going to be sick, which I'm really hoping for as I have 6 of the buggers. They were so much fun in 3.5.

Not all that excited about a 195 pt defiler. Why on earth would anyone pay that for a defiler. They are already way overpriced for what you get. how did they improve? can anyone make sence of this.

 sennacherib wrote:
Not all that excited about a 195 pt defiler. Why on earth would anyone pay that for a defiler. They are already way overpriced for what you get. how did they improve? can anyone make sence of this.

See, it's less armed and less armored than a Leman Russ tank, while moving about the same and having similar BS! So of course it's way more expensive!

Either that or the 4th hull point in REALLY expensive.

Yeah let's keep ignoring the other stuff like its "daemon rules" and "it will not die" making it more comparable to a leman Russ with an inv. save and a dedicated tech priest... And an extra hit point and close combat capabilities. A defiler isn't a leman Russ and if you're using it like it were its probably why it doesn't work that well.

Player strategy for 40k has become so much about min-maxing and the use specialized one trick units that more varied things like the defiler don't make sense to them. I'd pose it's not the defiler over costed it's so many other things undercosted.

Maybe I'm over generalizing. We should really just wait, but until then contextually take in the totality of the rumors.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
Ph34r knows how to make assumptions without all the data, that is not math.

Sorry, that was math. Based on data. Do you know what "assumption" means?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Yeah let's keep ignoring the other stuff like its "daemon rules" and "it will not die" making it more comparable to a leman Russ with an inv. save and a dedicated tech priest... And an extra hit point and close combat capabilities. A defiler isn't a leman Russ and if you're using it like it were its probably why it doesn't work that well.

Player strategy for 40k has become so much about min-maxing and the use specialized one trick units that more varied things like the defiler don't make sense to them. I'd pose it's not the defiler over costed it's so many other things undercosted.

Maybe I'm over generalizing. We should really just wait, but until then contextually take in the totality of the rumors.

Problem is It Will Not Die kinda sucks, an invulnerable is not great when you want to sit behind your 3+ fortification anyway, and upping the defensive cost doesn't help you at all offensively. We know basically nothing about the new defiler but if it is like the old but with these new defensive rules and a beefed up cost it will probably not be good.

Well I think it's easily fixable to me. Increase its load out options, I mean I always hated that they gave fleet to a unit that ignores stunned/shaken and can have extra attacks BUT forced me to pay for a battle canon I'd never fire.

At least fleet is better for it now but I am not sure you can assault after firing Ordinance.... I'll get on that lol.

I doubt they will fix it though, they are gona want to push the dragon and hell forge thing, I mean this is why are LR have sucked since third.

 ph34r wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:
Ph34r knows how to make assumptions without all the data, that is not math.

Sorry, that was math. Based on data. Do you know what "assumption" means?



Clearly, you do not. Unless you have a copy of the Codex, you did no math based on data. Get your head out of the clouds! Come back down to Earth.

Oh right, this is DakkaDakka! So yeah, go ahead, keep thinking that means something.

 ph34r wrote:
Problem is It Will Not Die kinda sucks, an invulnerable is not great when you want to sit behind your 3+ fortification anyway, and upping the defensive cost doesn't help you at all offensively. We know basically nothing about the new defiler but if it is like the old but with these new defensive rules and a beefed up cost it will probably not be good.

First, how exactly is the ability to effectively keep a tech priest built in suck? Self reparing reduces death thru loss of hp. Second, not everyone plays their defiler as a static artillery piece and you can't always rely on fortified terrain. The defiler isn't meant to be played as a static gun, so complaining that it has abilities beyond that's like complaining about a razorback's guns or obliterators' close combat weapons. You're in the camp that says a defiler is too expensive but the same arguements also been made of the Russ relative to IG artillery, which if your playing artillery the way you describe there is no need for the Russ' armor. My point boils down to maybe you'd just be happier fielding Vindicators with the possession rules.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Problem is It Will Not Die kinda sucks, an invulnerable is not great when you want to sit behind your 3+ fortification anyway, and upping the defensive cost doesn't help you at all offensively. We know basically nothing about the new defiler but if it is like the old but with these new defensive rules and a beefed up cost it will probably not be good.

First, how exactly is the ability to effectively keep a tech priest built in suck? Self reparing reduces death thru loss of hp. Second, not everyone plays their defiler as a static artillery piece and you can't always rely on fortified terrain. The defiler isn't meant to be played as a static gun, so complaining that it has abilities beyond that's like complaining about a razorback's guns or obliterators' close combat weapons. You're in the camp that says a defiler is too expensive but the same arguements also been made of the Russ relative to IG artillery, which if your playing artillery the way you describe there is no need for the Russ' armor. My point boils down to maybe you'd just be happier fielding Vindicators with the possession rules.

I'll actually upgrade my opinion to "is decent", I originally thought IWND defaulted to 6+. Given that the Defiler looks pretty resilient. Still very pricey for shooting, though cc might be improved if they ever get over the "horrible WS" thing. I consider fortifications pretty reliable myself... you buy them in your army list so that's a pretty good guarantee.

Being 195 to start though isn't driving me away from those Oblits any time soon

@ph34r For the way you want to use it, you're right it's too pricey, but using it that way just isn't what it's meant for... It's analogous to buying a leman Russ when you want a medusa.

 aka_mythos wrote:
@ph34r For the way you want to use it, you're right it's too pricey, but using it that way just isn't what it's meant for... It's analogous to buying a leman Russ when you want a medusa.

True. And if it keeps 4 hull points the defiler might be about as resilient as the LR too, with the invuln + regen and 4 HP to start vs the coveted AV 14 front.

I do agree it defiantly isnt just a battle cannon platform. But I have doubts that even the rumored rules will add the survivability it needs to fulfill its ranged rolls let alone its other roles.

The Thousand Sons didnt get any worse so thats a plus. I think they could have adjusted the base price to be better ... maybe closer to 135 + 23 a Kson.

That Blind power on Warp Talons is basically worthless since Blind requires a failed Initiative check.

I dunno forcing your opponent to WS & BS 1 for a turn has an appeal. You just have to pick low int. units to hunt.

If the sorcerer in a thousand sons unit is 60 points with 1 or 2 psychic abilities the cost of the squad went down. Also it's rumored bolt of Tzeentch is turning into a beam. My hope #1 hope is that in some way shape or form I can shoot my own cultists while they are melee (2nd ed nostalgia ), and that might work with beam.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I dunno forcing your opponent to WS & BS 1 for a turn has an appeal. You just have to pick low int. units to hunt.

So we have a selection of Necron, Orks...Tau...large Tyranids...

The list isn't very extensive as you can see. Raptors in any of those situations are either horribly unequipped (verses hordes or MCs) or extreme overkill (meaning it will have minimal effect as the unit already folds like a wet noodle vs. MEQ). I hardly see it becomming the main reason (or even one of the reasons) to take a unit, more like an added extra which once in a blue moon might actually come in handy. It's barely even worth mentioning really...

People screamed about JotWW, even with higher initiative models occasionally failing the test and being removed from play. Blind using a initiative based test is going to cause people to scream, even higher initiative models that will occasionally fail the test.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
People screamed about JotWW, even with higher initiative models occasionally failing the test and being removed from play. Blind using a initiative based test is going to cause people to scream, even higher initiative models that will occasionally fail the test.

You only get one chance to use it per game, not every turn like Jaws. In addition, your one chance requires you to Deep Strike right next to some bad guys, so 1/3 chance to hit with 1/3 (cause let's face it, mostly things are I4), 1/9 games it works. Woo?

That being said, it's a throwaway power. These guys are about 3 attack having Lightning Claws with Jump Packs.

Warp Talons don't sound good at all.
30 ppm, for a 3+/5++ with lightning claws just isn't good. Unless they're toughness 5, or 2+ armour save, or even two wounds. I can't see what they'd be good at killing.

They're a glass cannon that doesn't even put out much hurt in combat.

They maybe assault the round they deep strike !
Or maybe... Not..

So the majority of the units capability is a niche. That just means you won't build the bulk of your army around them and only use them on occaision. (I wonder if they can take marks).

@darkness eternal: I don't think you can make that 1:9 assessment... We don't even know the range or proximity they need to land near the targeted unit.

I can See the Warp Talons being Good, if they have a Higher Init, themselves.

I mean, I would think Jumppacks, 3+/5++/LCs, and Probably 2 base attacks, is pretty decent, if they have a higher init. They would shred most things without a 2+.

We'll see though. It's really hard to evaluate these things, when we're just getting bits and pieces.