Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is "an absolute fortune" the profit margin at which an incredibly niche miniature company becomes an immoral money grabber?
Is there a $ profit per unit amount at which that occurs for you or do you play it by ear?

You're ignoring a lot of economic factors that are driving the price up.

1. Forgeworld is consistently high quality and will replace botched models often with extras. Their product is considered superior to GWs.
2. Demand for Horus Heresy and Primarch models is high, but 3. supply is low.

GW and FW's specific niche, Warhammer miniatures, is a seller's market for the most part. As such they can charge what they want. Especially in the case of novelty items.

Assuming that's a serious question. The usual rule with retail is to double your money before taxes etc.

Simply put, you can buy whole units, perhaps even smaller vehicles for what they're charging for Angron. You can buy any other super heavy Baneblade chassis for 50% less than the Fellblade. These represent no logical difference in development cost or raw materials. The book itself is arguably better quality, but is approaching double the cost of the IA series.

The only logical explanation is they've set higher prices because they can. That is understandable behaviour from a corporate viewpoint, but it isn't really moral. I don't mind paying money into my hobby, I don't mind the fact that by playing 40k is committing myself to shopping at the top of the market. I do mind feeling taken advantage of, and some of these items being so much more than comparable models makes me feel taken advantage of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
You're ignoring a lot of economic factors that are driving the price up.

1. Forgeworld is consistently high quality and will replace botched models often with extras. Their product is considered superior to GWs.
2. Demand for Horus Heresy and Primarch models is high, but 3. supply is low.

GW and FW's specific niche, Warhammer miniatures, is a seller's market for the most part. As such they can charge what they want. Especially in the case of novelty items.

If demand is high but supply is low, that is essentially an artificial market condition created by FW. Once in production, casting extra minis for replacements is a small extra cost, and a tax write off. Also assuming an efficient casting method, replacements will be relatively infrequent.

 azreal13 wrote:
Simply put, you can buy whole units, perhaps even smaller vehicles for what they're charging for Angron. You can buy any other super heavy Baneblade chassis for 50% less than the Fellblade. These represent no logical difference in development cost or raw materials.

Actually they do. You aren't getting any large vehicles for the cost of a primarch, only conversion kits where most of the stuff is plastic. And you might be able to get whole units, but a high-quality character model on a complex display base is really just as expensive to design and produce as an average infantry squad (especially for primarchs where anything less than 200% effort on design will result in endless hate mail).

The Baneblade tanks cost 50% less because they're mostly plastic. The resin components are just the guns and some of the center hull, while the Fellblade is a mostly resin kit with maybe a small number of plastic parts. If you want to know what you get in full resin for the price of a FW Baneblade tank, look at the much smaller Macharius or Malcador tanks. Scaling up from those the Fellblade's cost makes perfect sense.

No mate, they do alt pattern Baneblades that are all resin. There are wheeled buggies (Taurus?) and similar, plus I don't think the retro Rhino is much different.

A Contemptor dread with two arms is less money. Albeit only just.

Here is an idea, don't buy anything then.

 azreal13 wrote:
No mate, they do alt pattern Baneblades that are all resin.

No they don't. They used to make a full-resin Baneblade before GW made it into a plastic kit (after ruining the design, IMO), but those have been out of production and unavailable for years. All of the "Baneblade" tanks they currently sell are conversion kits for the Shadowsword and are mostly plastic.

There are wheeled buggies (Taurus?) and similar, plus I don't think the retro Rhino is much different.

Yeah, but those are small models. The Tauros is full resin but it's a tiny vehicle, and the Rhino is only cheaper because it's a conversion kit for the plastic Rhino. The similar Predator tanks, which are closer to being full resin, cost as much as a primarch.

A Contemptor dread with two arms is less money. Albeit only just.

It's also smaller.

Well thanks. I'd not considered that!

I was trying to elicit a rational discussion on why the Heresy stuff is more expensive than comparable existing kits.

What it was missing was a petulant, vacuous response that brought nothing to the table.

This thread is descending OT, and my battery is about shot. I might start one in Discussions if anyone wants to follow and continue an attempt at a level headed discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and my bad, the current Baneblade chassis are plastic hybrid, but there are still other superheavies for a lot less.

 azreal13 wrote:
I was trying to elicit a rational discussion on why the Heresy stuff is more expensive than comparable existing kits.

If you want to start a rational discussion you shouldn't start it with false statements about what various model kits consist of. If you'd taken a few seconds to look at the FW website you would have seen that there are no all-resin Baneblade tanks for sale and that comparing the all/mostly-resin Fellblade to the mostly-plastic Shadowsword/etc is misleading at best.

Peregrine wrote:

A Contemptor dread with two arms is less money. Albeit only just.

It's also smaller.

Wait a minute. I've got a Contemptor. It's huge. Are you saying Angron is bigger than that? If so I may have to revise my opinion.

Also please don't be offended, that was aimed at Tyr Grimtooth and his 'hurr, don't buy it then' you jumped into thread middle.

Also please don't be offended, that was aimed at Tyr Grimtooth and his 'hurr, don't buy it then' you jumped into thread middle.

Ok, apology accepted.

(This is why I quote everyone when I'm responding to them, so there's no ambiguity about it.)

 azreal13 wrote:
Oh, and my bad, the current Baneblade chassis are plastic hybrid, but there are still other superheavies for a lot less.

Those superheavies are also MUCH smaller. I have a Malcador sitting on my table right next to a Leman Russ, and the "superheavy" is barely wider or taller and only about 50% longer. The Macharius is bigger, but still considerably smaller than a Baneblade. Comparing the price of those tanks to the much larger Fellblade is just silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Wait a minute. I've got a Contemptor. It's huge. Are you saying Angron is bigger than that? If so I may have to revise my opinion.

The character model itself is already bigger (and more detailed) than the average 28mm character and it also comes with a large and complex diorama base. It's hard to say how exactly it compares without seeing them side by side but it looks like the primarch model + base is at least in the same general area of size and complexity as a Contemptor.

Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

Here is why they charge $80, because they can. One part collectible and one part super high demand in moderate volume. While its a single mini they will never sell more than the number of World Eater players and the number of those that are collecting. They will have sold more baneblades while insisting on a comparable margin.

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

How does the Fellblade compare to a Baneblade?

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

One very, very important thing: are there rules for using this stuff in standard 40k (or Apocalypse, for the superheavies) or is it all limited to Heresy vs. Heresy. For example, can I take a jetbike squad in my codex marine army and play a normal 40k game?

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

Any other primarchs besides H and A? If so, what is their stat line and/or cost?

Thanks for the effort, but this went a bit too far with what we can allow. Sorry.

Reds8n

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

is there any more information on the mechanicus units?

 Thamor wrote:


You can use any of the rules against any other 40k army but it's still your opponents choice. The 40k rulebook still applies but you get some added extras with the new book.

So there's nothing incompatible with standard 40k? Good to know.

Do the new units (jetbikes, etc) come with the "a squadron of 1-3 jetbikes is a fast attack choice for a C:SM, DA or BT army" statement that would let you mix Heresy and standard 40k units?

bootstrap22 wrote:

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

is there any more information on the mechanicus units?

Just one special character (Loyal), Thallax Cohorts(Many options) and Mecanicum Land raiders. I'm guessing they are waiting until they reach the battles on Mars before you'll see more of them.

Peregrine wrote:

 Thamor wrote:


You can use any of the rules against any other 40k army but it's still your opponents choice. The 40k rulebook still applies but you get some added extras with the new book.

So there's nothing incompatible with standard 40k? Good to know.

Do the new units (jetbikes, etc) come with the "a squadron of 1-3 jetbikes is a fast attack choice for a C:SM, DA or BT army" statement that would let you mix Heresy and standard 40k units?

I'm not 100% on the compatibility of everything but I remember hearing that you can use them like you would any other forgeworld models no associated with the HH.

And no it doesn't say anything like that next to it.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Here is why they charge $80, because they can. One part collectible and one part super high demand in moderate volume. While its a single mini they will never sell more than the number of World Eater players and the number of those that are collecting. They will have sold more baneblades while insisting on a comparable margin.

This is why the price is so high. You can argue S & D all day but you won't want more than one. They will be putting in a ton of effort into one model with an equally awesome base. They won't make money on volume sales on that basis alone. How many multiple copies of the same special character will you be buying? I will attempt to pick up each primarch for the sole reason its a freaking primarch!

text removed.
Reds8n

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

Standard legion organization - is there anything else of interest other than it being divided into chapters and battalions. What are battalions divided into?

How big are 30K games? Do they start with a basic hq and 2x troops size or what?

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

Got any more shots of misc units or weapons from the book? Love the shots of moratorian and fulgirim.

More specifically does the book have the warhammer 40k seal of approval in the begining? Alot of tournaments are allowing for units and armies with that stamp including certain ones in adepticon. I'd love to simply use this army as a whole for my base force.

What different Legion rules do each legion have under the Legion Astartes rules

Aside from Horus can and how do Cataphract terminators count as troops?

Is it true Cataphracts have a 4+ invul but are S&P?

Is a Typhon siege tank a superheavy or normal vehical (already know it's apoc only)

Rules on the vulkite weapon?

Any sight of Relic Blades or other power weapons outside the usual sword/axe/fist/claw etc?

Are Legion basilisks/medusas BS 3 or 4?

For the heavy support squads, what is Hardened Armor?

Legion Destroyer squad, are rad missiles and phosphorex bombs more unique heavy weapons, assault etc?

Kroot posted two HQ choices, Legion Praetor and centurion, are either of them mandatory or can you just take a centurion?

 SickSix wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

Like a lot of other pre-heresy enthusiasts out there, who have been interested in this since the CCG and made armies years ago, I might well make a post on the main 40k page about making a pre-heresy army using non-FW options. Just for the younger/less disposable income wielding fans out there now who are feeling more than a little miffed that this awesome range (and with it, a boost in the number of PH players) has come along yet they are going to be excluded from it because they simply can't afford it. That is completely not true - it's possible to make good facsimiles of PH armour/weaponry and tanks for a fraction of the price that FW are asking.

That is a great idea. I have already run the numbers on a 10 man FW marine squad against a 10 man AI Steam Lords squad and the Anvil Industries boys come in at under half the cost. (i included shipping in my math)

Actually, an even better option is to combine some of those with bits from the numerous plastic bits websites out there. Especially now that many of the PH enthusiasts will be going straight for the official FW stuff, some of the more useful bits will also be easier to get hold of.

Really cheap PH squad: The FW 'Red Scorpion veteran upgrade pack' (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions/RED-SCORPIONS-VETERANS-WITH-VETERAN-SERGEANT-HAAS-UPGRADE-PACK.html)

£17, and for that you immediately have 10 Pre-Heresy head/torsos. I've bought loads of these, and usually sell on the Red Scorpion shoulder pads for £6-7 on ebay.
Then, 10 lots of legs, arms, boltguns weapons and backpacks (chaos ones with the 'arms' removed and shortened) and you have a squad of preheresy marines for about the price of 2-3 models of the new sculpts.

 Thamor wrote:
Is there anything anybody wants to know from the book?

Thanks for sharing good sir!

Is Khârn in the book? And what are the stats of the normal world eater marines like ie. Generic marine, Berzerkers etc?

We're going to have to lock this now, we're moving far beyond rumours and news here.

The books out soon enough, interested parties can buy it then.

We can do other threads as/when new FW HH products come along.