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Hey guys, new to the forum so this will be my first of many threads (hopefully)

Since 6th edition was released, all the talk has been about power swords (Strike at I + AP3) and Power Axes (I1 AP2) and how generally, many are displeased with power weapon changes. One thing that is overlooked is the humble Power Maul.

The first thing that make people turn away is the AP4, so MEQ are still getting armour saves. For this reason, if people want a strike at initiative weapon they will tun to swords for the AP. Overlooked often is the +2 St and concussive rule, which are far more versatile than AP3. I'm here to play a bit of devils advocate, and go with anecdotal evidence as well as crunching some numbers as to what the actual difference in effectiveness with these weapons are.

Firstly, from personal experience I've found that against MEQ, my Chaplain with Crozius kills far more Marines than my Librarian with Force Sword. But is AP3, it should kill more right? It could be my ridiculous inability to role 4+ against MEQ, or maybe its just because mathematically there isn't much difference between St: User AP3 and St: +2 AP4. So without any more waiting, its time to crack out a little bit of Mathhammer.

lets look at averages vs MEQ
For arguments sake, I'm going to there were 3 hits every time and base strength 4.

Maul hits 3 times, inflicts 2.5 wounds of which 1.6 is saved resulting in 1 wound on average

Sword hits 3 times, wounds 1.5 times, no saves

So here we see that the differences between the 2 weapons is marginal. A Maul could very easily inflict 3 wounds in the example and at would almost guarantee that model would fail at least one save, and the sword could round that 1.5 to 2. Both weapons on average against MEQ result in 1-2 wounds with rounding.

The benefits of the maul go further than just MEQ killing, which is why I feel they are so overlooked.

Making marines St6 is huge, as now it poses are greater threat to vehicles (most rear AV being 10), gives a very good chance of killing MC (St6 and concussive) and will give many IC's a run with the concussive rules. To top this all off, it causes instant death on T3 models (goodbye DE, Eldar, IG). Mauls are pseudo Relic Blades, which only sacrifice 1 point of AP for a fraction of the cost. It just seems that Mauls are so overlooked for Axes and Swords, when I feel they really do have their place in the game. I'm not trying to argue that they are the best Power Weapon, as each has situations where they shine, I just feel that Mauls are the Space Marines of Power Weapons. They are good at everything, but not really great at anything. They are the most versatile power weapon, being best at killing non-MEQ, holding its own against the AP3 sword at killing MEQ (only marginally worse off) and being far greater than the sword at killing TEQ. It just seems that, if you're not sure what you're up against, Mauls should be the allcomers weapon.

I feel I'm going to have to cut the sword off my librarian in favour of a staff as it makes him a lot more flexible against many different opponents.

Was wondering how all you guys felt about the new PW, and particularly the new Power Maul rules?

- Spoon

I don't mind it, as you mentioned it's neither poor nor great. Comes standard on chappies which is nice as it ensures you'll get some hits (I play BT, with WS5 chaps).

I find that its force weapon equivalent has an edge on it: if you save a warp charge you have a decent chance at causing an unsaved wound on an IC or MC which allows you to insta-kill anything.

Your math is a little misleading, as you seem to assume that 3 hits with a 1/3 chance to wound equals 1 wound. Probability doesn't work that way, and I feel it should more accurately represented.

T4, As 3+


T3, As 3+


T6, As 3+


Against any other save


Conclusion

Another thing to consider is that if you are going up against another character, he probably has an invuln save. This makes the AP bit less important. Odds are you are mulching troops anyway, it's the hard targets you need to worry about.

How many MCs have a 3+ rather then a 4+?

This whole thread brings up some interesting points. I may put a maul on one of my SM sergeants and see how it goes. Thanks to everyone for posting.

 Nevelon wrote:
Another thing to consider is that if you are going up against another character, he probably has an invuln save. This makes the AP bit less important. Odds are you are mulching troops anyway, it's the hard targets you need to worry about.

How many MCs have a 3+ rather then a 4+?

Hypothetically, there's a T4, As 3+, Invul 4+ model.

Power Maul has a 5/6 chance to wound, 1/3 chance to pen, giving it a 5/18 chance overall.

Power Sword has a 1/2 chance to wound, 1/2 chance to pen, giving it a 1/4 chance overall.

To bring each to similar denominators, the Maul has a 10/36 chance, the sword has a 9/36 chance. This means the maul has an approximate 11% chance better chance at wounding. Interesting, but marginal. Not all characters will have that invul either, and in terms of killing the mass of troops, the answer is in my previous post.

Most MCs have 3+. In fact, I can't think of one that has worse. On the other hand, there's a one or two nids with T6, As 4+.

 Nevelon wrote:
How many MCs have a 3+ rather then a 4+?

On a quick look threw the rulebook I only found one MC with a 4+ save and that would be the Harpy. All the other Tyranid MCs and the two Eldar ones have at least 3+. Daemons get Iron hide and have an inv save anyway.

 Shadelkan wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Another thing to consider is that if you are going up against another character, he probably has an invuln save. This makes the AP bit less important. Odds are you are mulching troops anyway, it's the hard targets you need to worry about.

How many MCs have a 3+ rather then a 4+?

Hypothetically, there's a T4, As 3+, Invul 4+ model.

Power Maul has a 5/6 chance to wound, 1/3 chance to pen, giving it a 5/18 chance overall.

Power Sword has a 1/2 chance to wound, 1/2 chance to pen, giving it a 1/4 chance overall.

To bring each to similar denominators, the Maul has a 10/36 chance, the sword has a 9/36 chance. This means the maul has an approximate 11% chance better chance at wounding. Interesting, but marginal. Not all characters will have that invul either, and in terms of killing the mass of troops, the answer is in my previous post.

Most MCs have 3+. In fact, I can't think of one that has worse. On the other hand, there's a one or two nids with T6, As 4+.

As a Codex marine player, my view is skewed. Both my captains and chaplains come standard as T4, 3+ 4++. MotF are 2+ base. So for 3/4 of my HQs, the maul is better. Once you factor in artificer armor, TDA or SS, the maul pulls farther ahead. So if you want to attack Vanilla marine HQs at your initiative, the maul is the better choice for most cases. Librarians without TDA or a SS are the ones you need a sword for (which is generally how I field mine, in all fairness)

I like to deny saves where possible, so for MEQ I'd still take the sword. I do not like the axe, however, since it makes you fight at the same initiative step as powerfists, which I find kind of lame. So all those khornate lords, space wolves, etc that use power axes are slow to hit? Yeah right!

They do get an extra attack, though. S5 & +1A is pretty solid. I think they balanced the different options pretty well.

Huh, I hadn't considered that. That does make more sense, knowing that they get another attack. I suppose that does balance them fairly well.

Well, you can get the extra attack with Specialist weapon like a Fist, but you have to buy a second one, which costs a lot.

Hah. In my musings about how good mauls would be against different enemies I'd honestly somehow managed to never consider their potential against vehicles. On a S4 character it's essentially a fistful of krak grenades, which is pretty respectable.

Good thread, I'll be re-evaluating my thoughts on them.

!! Good thread really!! & here I thought I was the only 1 who's actually using Power Mauls (or Crozius in my case, but they work just the same) in games.

For me, Power Maul/Crozius is THE weapon of choice for my BT Master of Sanctity. 7 x S6 attacks on charging at I5 with re-roll to hits and 2+ to wound against most enemies or 4+ to glance against the rear armour of the majority of vehicles in 40k? HELL YEAHH!!

Still, I wouldn't give it to my other HQs though since they have better weapons options.

Thanks for all the response guys, really appreciate the feedback!

I apologise if the math was a tad off like Shadelkan stated, I was trying to do it accurately but clearly my mind doesn't work properly at 12am

Reading through quickly, I noticed that concussive wasn't really discussed? I feel that it is a big factor over the sword vs MCs and ICs, ensuring that the wielder WILL strike in the next round of combat. Your thoughts?

I like to think that the Maul is worth taking and the maths clearly backs that up, I know many are not happy with the new Power Weapon rules, but I think having such a diversity of weapons/abilities really adds to the game and will hopefully make people open their eyes to the other possibilities.

Many of my DA sarge's have the fancy power maul from the upgrade kits, and one of my mates actually said to me just after 6th, 'oh you are going to regret modelling those now '

To date, I don't and I don't think I ever will, besides I've got enough guys with other weapons to switch out if I ever feel the need but in general Mauls haven't failed me yet.

I was interested however on what peoples thoughts were on the 'Power Lance' and if it was worth taking, as I've not actually tried one yet.

A Power lance for those who don't know has two profiles, one for charging and one for all other times (being charged etc).

When charging you gain +1 Strength and the AP is 3.
At all other times the strength is as user and the AP is 4.

I'd try and math-hammer it but my maths generally sucks, so if anyone wants to feel free but I'm just asking more if anyones used them and their thoughts.

I love the maul i play against Deldar alot so IDing their IC is rather awesome plus knocking any survivors down to int 1 is rather awesome even in my blob guard sgts with mauls knocking a SM captain down to Int 1 and then battered before he can swing next round

The maul is an excellent weapon, though personally I find the axe a better option in general. That said, a unit with mauls can deal with quite a few things were power swords can't. Wounding easier goes a long way to making them useful.

I imagine the lance being awesome in big groups on the charge 4 or 5 on the charge would make a mess of anything without a 2+ save but the problem is finding a unit you could put 4 or 5 of them on Chaos chosen come to mind

In my terminator squads (SW) I've been adding 1, maybe 2 guys with the maul. Allies means that wholly MEQ or GEQ armies are potentially less common. It's useful, and its nice to force a bunch of saves, take off some MEQ's and THEN have the axes/fists swing. Also, since they are terminators, making up for no frag/krak grenades with S6 mauls works too.

spoontongue wrote:
Reading through quickly, I noticed that concussive wasn't really discussed? I feel that it is a big factor over the sword vs MCs and ICs, ensuring that the wielder WILL strike in the next round of combat. Your thoughts?

Good point. I think it's safe to say that the Maul is best as a challenge weapon, going against those commanders with invuls and multi-wounds. Given that concussive is an advantage over power swords, I will mention that in my original math hammering.

@Rysaer
In regards to lances, they would work best on fast units where you can have a lot of them. Units that support your army and make assaults on their terms.

So a command squad all with power lances coold work very nicely as a support/counter charging unit, heavenly wounding a unit and causing it to break. Also works nicely with HoW! 1 I10 strength 4 + 4 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge will kill anything short of TEQ. And if you let hammernators get that close you don't deserve to win the combat

Though it is a lot of points for a unit like this, so it is something that would need to have a plan for, and be built around when list writing. If not taken in numbers, the weapon is a little gimmicky though

The only time my Biker boss is reliably wounded in CC, has been by a power maul wielding Chaplain. So yea, I say they definitely have their uses. Sure, its not so great against your average MEQ, but neither is a boltgun, but I dont hear people complain that the boltgun is useless.

 KingCracker wrote:
The only time my Biker boss is reliably wounded in CC, has been by a power maul wielding Chaplain. So yea, I say they definitely have their uses. Sure, its not so great against your average MEQ, but neither is a boltgun, but I dont hear people complain that the boltgun is useless.

Ailaros made an argument once that Bolters were the worst small arms in the game, and had some solid points (Sadly my GH cannot have shootas, and this was a discussion in 5th with different rapid fire rules...)
As a small note- mauls are very very solid vs orcs. Wounds them easily, and against nobs and bosses wounds easily, ignores anything outside of Mega armor and forces them down to I1 (if they don't have a klaw). Win!

Thats funny, because I remember on more then 1 occasion that bolters really kick ass when used correctly.

Combat Tactics and Boltguns is disgustingly good
Its a shame my SW don't benefit from combat tactics, but I guess I'm just spoilt with cheap reliable troops with counter attack

 Shadelkan wrote:
Your math is a little misleading, as you seem to assume that 3 hits with a 1/3 chance to wound equals 1 wound. Probability doesn't work that way, and I feel it should more accurately represented.

You should include T5 targets as well. Necron lords and the like in your calculations.

On an unrelated note, power mauls are good at opening up most vehicles.

~psst~ I like power mauls too.

Just wait till they get into a squad of necron warriors. It'll happen.

The maul will never strike alone. The maul is most likely on a Chappy if they are assaulting, and at that point I doubt the maul is what'll be smacking you around... Goodbye warriors! Haha

A power maul is marginally better than PW vs terminators but marginally worse against power armor. Of course put them in carapace armor and it is hands down the maul.
Power Axe, Ltng Claw, Powerfist are going to kill better but of course then you are I 1 so that is decidedly a down point to them.

The other thing is the chaplain has his built in Reroll to hit so that is also a benefit to him.


I think what I want are a bunch of berzerkers with heavy chain weapons... WS 5 S6 and 3 or 4 attacks at I 4. Go ahead and keep your power weapons. Here is to crossing my fingers for berzerkers to have this option.