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Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






 AustonT wrote:
 youbedead wrote:
Why do people need an equal need for education fire and police

As far as education goes poor neighborhoods generally receive less money for education; it's the basic reason the War on Poverty is a dismal failure. Rich and middle class kids get good and ok educations while poor kids barely meet the minimums. Police and fire are a different bundle of bananas.


Why do people have a equal need for education fire and police and not health

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
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Who said they didn't? Healthcare has historically been a luxury in most cultures. We are basically in the final stages of deciding in this country if the need for healthcare will be determined by individual wealth or societal ability to deliver it equally regardless of individual wealth.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
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Made in us
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As has fire, police and education services, what im wondering is how someone can view those as necessary functions of government but not healthcare

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
 youbedead wrote:
Why do people need an equal need for education fire and police


Everyone needs to be educated to some level and everyone has a relativly equal risk for fire and crime. Not having these 3 also effects everyone around you.

health risks are extremely variable. disease may or may not be contagious. it may actually not need treatment. you may not even get sick at all. individuals may be extremely vigorous or sickly.


You don't need fire, police or healthcare until something goes wrong, and then you really need it - it goes from a good with little utility to one with utility equal to everything you own. With fire, police and health the sooner you get it the less you need to fix your problem. With fire, police and healthcare the more people who have it the less pressing everybody's else need is.

That's why all three are examples of products which line up very well with universal models of provision, and why the steady march of history has been towards such models, and away from direct user pay models (because that's the model that works).

That's what you have to look at. What happens when ideology is tried in the real world - what works and what fails. And then you look at history in a new light, and you start to see things as a broadly iterative process, moving to systems that work a little better than what was there before, with misteps rejected along the way.

And suddenly this 'always less government because government is wasteful' thing starts to look like empty rhetoric.



Thats why the government shouldn't touch it. Bureaucratic nightmare.


The present US system has greater bureacratic costs. Your ideology just does not match the real world.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Grey Templar wrote:Medical care is different from Police, Fire, and Education because everyone has an equal need for the above 3. Not everyone has an equal need for healthcare.

And in one statement you manage a declaration that you lack any understanding of what police work, firefighting or medical care entails.

Like I said once already. Save this thread. Cherish it, keep it close by. Print it and fold it up and keep it in your pocket.

And when you or a family member gets sick or injured, you can pull out the printout of this thread, and perhaps then you will recognize how juvenile your ideas of social services are.

I don't, however, wish you any harm. But 1 in 7 people in the US (with even greater odds if you're of lower socioeconomic status) will be afflicted with cancer in their lifetimes.

Good luck!
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 AustonT wrote:
Who said they didn't? Healthcare has historically been a luxury in most cultures.


And air travel was the dream of mad eyed inventors. But then technology changed, and society changed with it.

We are basically in the final stages of deciding in this country if the need for healthcare will be determined by individual wealth or societal ability to deliver it equally regardless of individual wealth.


Not really. As has already been discussed, emergency healthcare is already provided regardless of the person's ability to pay.

What you are in the last stages of is a system that's had minor, shortsighted fixes added to it for about 60 years. The extent and nature of the changes to that system are up for debate, but the plain reality is that the mess of employer provided insurance interacting with private insurers interacting with hospitals interacting with patients is not a sustainable model given the expanding expectations of modern healthcare systems.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Going back on topic for a second here. Just to clarify - Romney's statements don't count as "class warfare", right? Stating that, unless you pay federal income tax, you're a victim who doesn't care about your life and has no personal responsibility - this is just straight talkin', right? Where is John Sununu on this?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 dogma wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

I don't see anyone involved denying healthcare.

Not giving something to someone is not the same as denying them from having it.


Yes it is.

Does this apply to the right enshrined in the Second Amendment, too? After all, if the government not giving you what you have a right to is the same as denying you what you have a right to, then all of our Second Amendment rights are being violated as we speak. Shall we start the campaign for a free gun for every American, like the Swiss?
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Is there anything to the idea that since it is society that has deprived many of us of the ability to be truly self sufficient, society therefore has an obligation to care for those that cannot become such?

I mean, before civilization, people could hunt or gather whatever they could. Fight others for what they want, or work together, or whatever they chose.

For much of history, migrations, wars, colonization, and exploration have allowed the ambitous and/or impovershed to attain some property. For decades, the US government would give land to anybody that could farm it. If nothing else, for most of history the simple need for labor ensured at least sustinence to people able to work.

But now? You can't hunt or gather. You can't get what you want through banditry or raiding. You can't go someplace new and start a farm. mechanization and automation have reduced the need for labor. The move to service industries and skilled trades leaves many behind.

I mean, at some point we have to say that our society precludes complete self reliance (even if we ignore the need for care as a child).
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

You have an intriguing point.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Seaward wrote:

Does this apply to the right enshrined in the Second Amendment, too?


Yes. Rights have never been absolute in America, we just pretend that they are because we like the word "freedom". Of course, what we really mean by "freedom" is "I want to do things I enjoy."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/20 16:19:11


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 dogma wrote:
 Seaward wrote:

Does this apply to the right enshrined in the Second Amendment, too?


Yes. Rights have never been absolute in America, we just pretend that they are because we like the word "freedom".


This is my alarm to wake me up every morning reminding me that I am still free:


   
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United States

 Polonius wrote:

But now? You can't hunt or gather. You can't get what you want through banditry or raiding. You can't go someplace new and start a farm. mechanization and automation have reduced the need for labor. The move to service industries and skilled trades leaves many behind.


You can, but there is more resistance and, regarding the farm, human resistance.

We're transitioning from a society in which production requires no education to one in which it does. Conversely, education is often overemphasized because we're more concerned with checklists than interacting with people.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Seneca Nation of Indians

Further, even farms are becomming more and more automated. One farm near my current location is automated to the degree that one man can maintain over one thousand head without having to leave the control room.

In 'the old days' people in desperate straits could do things like milk cows and make a living. Not anymore. The move toward greater and greater automation is effectively destroying the worlds economy. Ironic, that.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
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Toledo, OH

 BaronIveagh wrote:
move toward greater and greater automation is effectively destroying the worlds economy. Ironic, that.


that's only true if competitive employment is a requirement to survive.

If everything is cheaper, which it would be as automation increases, then the cost of supproting "free riders" only goes down.

The very concept that work is a moral good is a relatively recent invention. Pre-Reformation, work was seen as, at best, a necassary evil. (Sloth, as a deadly sign, is more a matter of spiritual apathy).

We spend a lot of time as a society worrying how to maximize employment, instead of celebrating the liklihood that we could someday only make people that want more than the minimum actually work.
   
Made in us
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Back OT:
This is a nice summary:
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2012/09/19/Romneys-Victims-vs-Obamas-Cash-Cows.aspx#page1

Here's a tidbit:
Romney seems intent on clarifying the economic argument on a broad and philosophical basis, rather than stay content to argue over details. Obama now has the same opportunity. The day after the release of the Romney tape, audio from a 1998 appearance by Obama at Loyola University surfaced in which Obama discussed his support for government redistribution. "I think the trick is how do we structure government systems that pool resources and hence facilitate some redistribution,” Obama said, “because I actually believe in redistribution, at least at a certain level, to make sure that everybody's got a shot.”

Rather than embrace this statement, as Romney did his, the Obama campaign sought to distance themselves from it, insisting that it just referred to city government – even though Obama was at the time a state Senator. Compare this to Obama’s acceptance speech at the Democratic national convention, though, which promoted his policy that “asks the wealthiest households to pay higher taxes on incomes,” in order to restore an America where “everyone gets a fair shot and everyone does their fair share.” That sounds a lot like the redistribution Obama supported in 1998, right down to the same applause lines.




Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos






sebster wrote:everyone has a relativly equal risk for fire and crime.


Disagree.

Some neighborhoods in the U.S. would qualify as warzones in other parts of the world. They are in need of far more police service then some gated community in Romney land (for example)...

Problem is stopping crime in some of those neighborhoods isnt the priority, containment is...

++ Death In The Dark++ A Zone Mortalis Hobby Project Log: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/663090.page#8712701
 
   
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 dogma wrote:
 Seaward wrote:

Does this apply to the right enshrined in the Second Amendment, too?


Yes. Rights have never been absolute in America, we just pretend that they are because we like the word "freedom". Of course, what we really mean by "freedom" is "I want to do things I enjoy."

True, but not what I asked.

The poster you were responding to asked if the government not providing the actual, tangible benefit included in the right - health care, in this case - was the same as denying it. In other words, we live in a country where everyone who wishes can go out and buy healthcare if they so choose, just like a gun. Your contention is that the government not providing health care is the same as denying the right to health care. Is the government not providing guns the same as denying the right to guns?
   
Made in ca
Zealous Sin-Eater




Montreal

 Manchu wrote:
@Kovnik Obama: I don't think you are being clear. In fact, I think you are purposely being unclear and evasive. You cannot be anymore offended by the accusation than I am by the poor argumentation I accuse you of.


The cognitive dissonance in this statement is staggering. You reverting to attacks on my eloquence instead of actually agreeing that we see things differently speaks poorly of you. You denying the attack, in the same sentence you actually claim that it's my intent to be unclear, is above all bad form.

You understand that humans have basic needs. You refuse to say humans have rights to those basic needs except that a government agrees to provide them.


Rights, if we speak about something real, something effective, are legal fictions. Without a legal medium, provided either by the government or the traditional structures of the society in question, they mean nothing. They are just wishes. How is that unclear?


I respond that human rights arise from basic human needs and just like those needs exist independently from government action or inaction.


Of course they do. But they do not, by themselves, as needs, provide their fulfilment. That's what positive rights do.

Your retort is a stand-alone reference to historicity and an alleged correlation between pragmatic scientific definitions and social positivism as if these things are self-evidently relevant.


That was only a retort to your absolutist statement about humanity. That what's 'human' is dependant on the context should be self-evident to anyone with an education. 2300 years ago, a human was nothing more than a speaking animal (or a half-god).

[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.  
   
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6 Nov needs to hurry up

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The Void

 Jihadin wrote:
6 Nov needs to hurry up


Just so we can bloody talk about anything else.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Toledo, OH

Try living in a swing state! It's half the commericals sometimes.
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Polonius wrote:
Try living in a swing state! It's half the commericals sometimes.

You mean like this ad?


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






 BaronIveagh wrote:
In 'the old days' people in desperate straits could do things like milk cows and make a living. Not anymore. The move toward greater and greater automation is effectively destroying the worlds economy. Ironic, that.


No. It doesn't "destroy the economy"; automation generally increases efficiency, resulting in greater output of goods vs. cost of goods, and assuming that markets are efficient (which they mostly are in the US) the goods are then made cheaper or with increased value. That's economic growth.

What wide-spread automation does do, generally, is increase wealth concentration because intellectual property and the development of process becomes more valuable than the means of production. A manufacturing job goes from plugging bolts into a thingamajig on an assembly line to a trained technician monitoring a process. Because the role is now more complex, the barrier to entry is higher or more exclusive. Entire new industries are created, like the 'tech sector'.

What exactly 'is' Facebook? Is it anything more than a bunch of electricity in a server bank somewhere, overseen by a couple hundred technicians? Obviopusly it is, but why is this company worth as much as General Motors? This is massive wealth concentration (print media employed gazillions more than FB ever will), but it's also an obvious example of wealth creation (new "industry") and wealth re-positioning.

In "the old days" people could milk cows and make a living. In the current times, that's still completely possible--you can survive nearly indefinitely on nothing but potatoes, butter, and tapwater--however we've redefined the basic standards of living to include stuff like Facebook.
   
Made in us
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Forum going to erupt like Peter North trade mark. 2-4 yrs down the road the internet collapse

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 sebster wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
Who said they didn't? Healthcare has historically been a luxury in most cultures.


And air travel was the dream of mad eyed inventors. But then technology changed, and society changed with it.

We are basically in the final stages of deciding in this country if the need for healthcare will be determined by individual wealth or societal ability to deliver it equally regardless of individual wealth.


Not really. As has already been discussed, emergency healthcare is already provided regardless of the person's ability to pay.

What you are in the last stages of is a system that's had minor, shortsighted fixes added to it for about 60 years. The extent and nature of the changes to that system are up for debate, but the plain reality is that the mess of employer provided insurance interacting with private insurers interacting with hospitals interacting with patients is not a sustainable model given the expanding expectations of modern healthcare systems.

All you have done here is validate my point. If you have no money you still have access to emergency care, but not preventative or periodical care. In other words income=level of care. Good work.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

Society will spend lots of money keeping you right at the edge of death, but it will not spend less money keeping you healthy to begin with.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 d-usa wrote:
Society will spend lots of money keeping you right at the edge of death, but it will not spend less money keeping you healthy to begin with.

It's almost as if this is the root of the problem...

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

I spend way too much money being fat, I am not part of the solution either...
   
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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
... bad form ...
This is just more empty sentiment. What say we get back to the grist, eh?
Rights, if we speak about something real, something effective, are legal fictions. Without a legal medium, provided either by the government or the traditional structures of the society in question, they mean nothing. They are just wishes.
A legal fiction is a concept created by the law. The phenomenon of rights predates the existence of positive law, regardless of the conceptualization/articulartion of that phenomenon. Human rights arise from the universal quality of human nature. The dignity of the person is not a product of a court or other governmental institution. Human rights, in order to be human rights, cannot be derived positivistically.
2300 years ago, a human was nothing more than a speaking animal (or a half-god).
Don't be absurd. I suppose you'd also have to say that internal organs (much less the double-helix structure of DNA) did not exist 2300 years ago. Try to understand that just like the structure of DNA, human rights are not something that we invented but rather something that we discovered.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/20 22:03:33


   
 
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