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Zero, you're correct.

At least speaking from my time there, we were all required to provide our own paints, brushes, palettes, whatever we needed. BTP did offer a 'supply cabinet' of basic paint colors, glue, putty, etc. at retail prices.

I can only conclude that TAP's experience of being given a different brush was a 'corporate culture' thing, and not a tax status confusion. Productivity and speed were/are the primary painting values at BTP, so it's no surprise that a bigger/fatter brush was recommended. That being said, I think in the TGN thread, Shawn says his workers are employees now, as he quotes an hourly wage - that would mean BTP should provide any and all materials required for the job. I wonder if that's true.

HarlequinZero wrote:
I was reading the the thread over on TGN and the comments have been turned off so I decided to hop over here.

If you read BTP's comments it seems all of their painters are counted as "Independent Contractors" to the IRS. So I followed another link someone posted in the TGN mega thread about the difference between "Employees" and "Indpendent Contractors." It says that an Independent Contractor is expected to use all his/her own personal tools in the completion of a job. However, in TrojanArtPainting's thread he says one of the painters took him over to the communal tool area provided by BTP. (I guess this means paint and brushes.) But, if the BTP painters are getting their paints and brushes from BTP then they can't be considered independent contractors. They would have to buy all the paints and brushes needed for each project themselves. Am I reading that right?

BTP had their employees claim themselves to be contractors for the purpose of defrauding the IRS and the United States Government.

It is already clear that they were in fact employees.

It is already clear that Shawn of BTP had some of his employees engage in activity to appear as if they were contractors, such as setting up phony websites offering services.

It is also clear that Shawn was investigated by the IRS and was forced to settle with them because they found BTP in violation. Although he has not admitted this to the public, paying the IRS is in fact an admission of guilt.

Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties. Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it. I even made a few friends at the IRS.

The matter is now settled w.r.t. the IRS, but as far as I am concerned, this truly reflects poorly on the character of Shawn and the nature of his business. Forcing your employees to masquerade as contractors is not an honest thing to do. Shawn did not "accidentally" deviate from compliance of the tax code. He knowingly broke the tax code through the use of deception, and coerced others into assisting him, in order to save a buck. I refuse to support any business that engages in unethical activities such as defrauding the government.

It is my fear that such dishonest practices will continue and will be encouraged by the injection of cash that BTP will be getting through their new Kickstarter.

 Igenstilch wrote:
I

Quick question for Nukearts, what was the cost... EDIT: What was the time spent on that land raider? I honestly would like to know how we compare in pricing to other services.

Hey,

sorry we can't post price due to the T+C of Dakkadakka. As for time, it takes as long as it takes I'm afraid! We give the client a date it will be prepared and posted by, which is dependent on how busy the studio is. However if there is going to be a wait due to lots of work we do give incentives to wait, such as increased levels, or throwing in a freebie. Sometimes this mean our studio are working into the early hours (which we want to do, like I said we are all about customer satisfaction!)

If you are still intrigued, I suggest you email me at the email I gave, or go check out our facebook where you can see step by step many of the armies we are doing. (However this is not always immediately updated publicly, although clients see many wip shots through a private folder.

Thanks for your insight and question! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said every painting company is different and you have to choose the right one for you. Keep up the good work, and content for the community!

Thanks.

sorry but here is the description of both an employee and a contractor .there's a bit more to being a contractor then just having your own brushes .sorry but did people actually read the info i posted ?

What’s the Difference?

An Independent Contractor:

Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records

An Employee:

Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer

Many small businesses rely on independent contractors for their staffing needs. There are many benefits to using contractors over hiring employees:

Savings in labor costs
Reduced liability
Flexibility in hiring and firing

on a personal note here`s a message for mr gately http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbenhxn8Xwo

catachan1brainleaf wrote:


An Independent Contractor:

Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records

An Employee:

Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer

From the definitions you provided above, I am more convinced than ever that these people were employees rather than contractors. Even the IRS agreed.

Did they have more than one client? No. They were required to sign a non-competition agreement that even extended beyond their employment at BTP.

Do they advertise their work? No. Can anybody show me an advertisement for independent work by a single painter currently working at BTP?

It`s not just a matter of pulling a fast one on the taxman ,its also about braking labor laws in a way that favors the employer.iv lived all my life in a small crappy town in n,ireland trust me i know all about the dodgy stuff employers will pull on their workers.its always been pretty much a given here that when you work on a building site of any kind you do the double ie you work and claim benefits.that way they can pay you less for a weeks hard graft .if you don't do this then good luck finding job like that round here .

I just don't like seeing honest workers getting shafted .also not keen on the way workers are referred to as little more than burger flips at some fast food joint .honest decent folk will engage in dishonest acts if it means putting food on the table and paying the rent esp when their employer is putting pressure on them to do so .i grew up in a town whos claim to fame (aside from being one of the most bomed towns in western europe since ww2) was it had one of the highest unemployment rates in the industrial world .now your prob thinking this dudes finally gone mad .but it was that bad here during the 1970`s that 60mins actually did a show on the town .and in that show they mention the very fact i just stated .the 60min bit on the town is called "life and death in an irish town" its on youtube .now i know for a fact a fair few people were working back then but they were being worked hard for very little pay and no workers rights .i dont want to see that in my hobby .

right since i know people are lazy sods here`s a link to the 60min segment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrG1uG3pSJc

Hey sorry again guys, but I've received some information from the owner of the company, Nuke
He personally painted the tanks you see at the beginning of the thread, and we really pride ourselves on the fact that our owner is actively involved in the painting of each project. Much of the stuff coming out of the studio he was worked on personally, and alongside the members of staff whom he personally trains: not just on the technical side, but also on theory such as style, color theory, aesthetic tastes, interpretation, emotive poses, etc. This helps keep a tight quality control.

Those tanks at the beginning took between 4 and five hours


One of the questions we receive alot is about communication, we are extremely flexible in this regard. I mentioned email and facebook, but we can even get in contact with customers through phone apps such as line and whats app? Or even here on DakkaDakka!

I can't comment much on the old tax situation, that was a different batch of EMPLOYEES. Shawn has admitted to me that he did get in trouble with the IRS, and did pay large fines over it.

That was one of two times that Shawn imploded BTP and had to start over (Shawn's own words). That is what Shawn refers to as 9 years of successful business!

This issue of being too short of cash to order customers prepaid models and supplies is NOT a new one, it's been fairly common over the last couple years, that I was witness to. It's an issue Shawn was very well aware of, and to act like it's a new one that was the fault of employees is utter BS. I also know that customers are commonly lied to as to why their projects are late as a result.

I do question if BTP can handle the Kickstarter obligations on time and with good quality for the following reasons:
1. They DO have a cash flow problem, you can tell from Shawn's extra begging lately. Watch the long Kickstarter video and tell me that's not the body language of a desperate man.
2. They have lost most of the really talented painters and assemblers in the last few months. Compare some older vids with new ones.
3. They are actually paying hourly now which means time spent on minis is kept to a bare minimum, and the artists are not happy in those conditions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nukearts wrote:
Hey sorry again guys, but I've received some information from the owner of the company, Nuke
He personally painted the tanks you see at the beginning of the thread, and we really pride ourselves on the fact that our owner is actively involved in the painting of each project. Much of the stuff coming out of the studio he was worked on personally, and alongside the members of staff whom he personally trains: not just on the technical side, but also on theory such as style, color theory, aesthetic tastes, interpretation, emotive poses, etc. This helps keep a tight quality control.

Those tanks at the beginning took between 4 and five hours


One of the questions we receive alot is about communication, we are extremely flexible in this regard. I mentioned email and facebook, but we can even get in contact with customers through phone apps such as line and whats app? Or even here on DakkaDakka!

I can tell you, the BTP tanks were done in less than an hour, and probably paid the artist about $10


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!

Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!

Renfro wrote:

Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!

Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!

It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.

 Cyporiean wrote:

Renfro wrote:

Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!

Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!

It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.

Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.

I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.

My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.

Are you the Ren from BTP, or is this a happy coincidence that your names are similar?

Renfro wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

Renfro wrote:

Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!

Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!

It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.

Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.

I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.

My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.

TTGN does still have a forum, you could open a thread there, and then the continuous posting won't block people from being able to see other news.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Are you the Ren from BTP, or is this a happy coincidence that your names are similar?

No I'm not Ren, Renfro has nothing to do with my name.

Renfro wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Are you the Ren from BTP, or is this a happy coincidence that your names are similar?

No I'm not Ren, Renfro has nothing to do with my name.

I didn't get a chance to edit before you responded, I picked up reading the thread where I last read a post... I hadn't seen that you worked there...

 Alfndrate wrote:

Renfro wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Are you the Ren from BTP, or is this a happy coincidence that your names are similar?

No I'm not Ren, Renfro has nothing to do with my name.

I didn't get a chance to edit before you responded, I picked up reading the thread where I last read a post... I hadn't seen that you worked there...

I did work for BTP, and quit on good terms. I loved the job for a while, then I started seeing how Shawn really was and the darker and unstable inner workings of BTP.

You do not question Shawn on how things are done. If you do one or all of three things happen:
1. Shawn will give you a condisending reply and then completely ignore the issue and treat you like an outsider. Most common

2. Insult your skills as an artist in front of the whole studio while spouting how wonderful a job it is and if you don't like it to get out.

3. If you speak out too often and Shawn can't insult you into quiting, you will likely be fired.

A Shawn wonders why people would post on the web instead of coming to him, what a laugh.

Yeah, I hate to say it... I used to watch BTP's videos looking for some paint scheme inspiration, but Shawn bugged the crap out of me, and I could very easily see how working for him might be like that.

 Cyporiean wrote:

Renfro wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

Renfro wrote:

Wow, cant believe they got the TGN comments shut down!

Shawn, for a guy that professes love of the Constitution, you sure dont think much of free speech!

It wasn't Shawn/BTP. I was the one to suggest to Jason to close the thread, as it became impossible to that other news posts were being commented on.

Thank you for that info. I think you did a diservice to the gaming community. When companies are doing questionable things, people should be free to discuss it.

I could understand if it was nothing but baseless accusations, but considering Shawn himself has pretty much verified most as truth, that is clearly not the case here.

My previous statement regarding free speech still applies to Shawns removal of comments elsewhere. That is his right, but very opposite of what he professes to believe.

TTGN does still have a forum, you could open a thread there, and then the continuous posting won't block people from being able to see other news.

Oh right, a graveyard at midnight gets more traffic.

Renfro wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:


TTGN does still have a forum, you could open a thread there, and then the continuous posting won't block people from being able to see other news.

Oh right, a graveyard at midnight gets more traffic.

The same could be said of TTGN comments in general, usually 6 comments is the max something will get.

Personally I think we need to put pressure on the major news outlets of 40k, such as 40k Radio, the 11th Company, Bols, Faiet 212 etc. Some of these news sources have publicized BTP in the past.

I know that 40k Radio does Duelcon, and BTP was at Duelcon this year. If they are publicizing BTP, I think they are obligated to notify the listening public that there are ethical questions surrounding BTP - and that there are other choices for commission work.

I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.

ianj253 wrote:
I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.

Oh, so lots of people do it, so it's ok. WOW

I agree that its an old issue and souldnt be such a distraction to the current issues. However it does give an indication to Shawns character.

ianj253 wrote:
I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.

Excuse me but listing other ileggal acts does not make this one any more leggal .this is an employer going out of his way to exploit his work force .not only is this a tax matter its also braking labor laws .maybe you should read this since it`s US law and may help you understand what this actually means .or maybe you`s prefer we all sat back and were like you with your who cares if he brakes the laws and treats his workers badly sure thats like selling a tactical squad and not declaering it .

Hire a Contractor or an Employee?

Independent contractors and employees are not the same, and it's important to understand the difference. Knowing this distinction will help you determine what your first hiring move will be and affect how you withhold a variety of taxes and avoid costly legal consequences.

What’s the Difference?

An Independent Contractor:

Operates under a business name
Has his/her own employees
Maintains a separate business checking account
Advertises his/her business' services
Invoices for work completed
Has more than one client
Has own tools and sets own hours
Keeps business records

An Employee:

Performs duties dictated or controlled by others
Is given training for work to be done
Works for only one employer

Many small businesses rely on independent contractors for their staffing needs. There are many benefits to using contractors over hiring employees:

Savings in labor costs
Reduced liability
Flexibility in hiring and firing

Why Does It Matter?

Misclassification of an individual as an independent contractor may have a number of costly legal consequences.

If your independent contractor is discovered to meet the legal definition of an employee, you may be required to:

Reimburse them for wages you should've paid them under the Fair Labor Standards Act, including overtime and minimum wage
Pay back taxes and penalties for federal and state income taxes, Social Security, Medicare and unemployment
Pay any misclassified injured employees workers' compensation benefits
Provide employee benefits, including health insurance, retirement, etc.

Tax Requirements

Visit the IRS Independent Contractor or Employee guide to learn about the tax implications of either scenario, download and fill out a form to have the IRS officially determine your workers’ status, and find other related resources.

Employment Information

There is no single test for determining if an individual is an independent contractor or an employee under the Fair Labor Standards Act. However, the following guidelines should be taken into account:

The extent to which the services rendered are an integral part of the principal's business
The permanency of the relationship
The amount of the alleged contractor's investment in facilities and equipment
The nature and degree of control by the principal
The alleged contractor's opportunities for profit and loss
The amount of initiative, judgment, or foresight in open market competition with others that is required for the success of the claimed independent contractor
The degree of independent business organization and operation

Whether a person is an independent contractor or an employee generally depends on the amount of control exercised by the employer over the work being done. Read Equal Employment Opportunity Laws - Who's Covered? for more information on how to determine whether a person is an independent contractor or an employee, and which are covered under federal laws.

Renfro wrote:

ianj253 wrote:
I think everyones making a larger deal over the situation with the IRS. I don't think many here realize how common tax fraud is. Has anyone you know hired illegals to work for them? This is tax fraud. Have you ever been paid under the table? This is tax fraud. Have you sold something on dakka and not reported it to the IRS? This is tax fraud.

Oh, so lots of people do it, so it's ok. WOW

I agree that its an old issue and souldnt be such a distraction to the current issues. However it does give an indication to Shawns character.

I never said that. I just think it's a bigger issue than people are making it. You would be hard pressed to find a company out there that hasn't committed some sort of tax fraud. What they did was wrong, but it's no reason to crucify them.

its not just one issue there are a few which have cme up ,none of which paint BTP in a very good light be it worker explotation .brow beating people constantly in video`s sometimes for 20min plus ,not being totally honest with clients ,getting people outside BTP to order stock with the encentive of store credit ,the fact things clarely arent as honky dory as mr gately would have us believe and then the man wants us the wargamers to bail him out over some daft project on kickstarter to the tune of $40.000 .we arent just picking on BTP if any of this had of come out during other kickstarters dont you think people would be angry or at the very least conserned about the state of the hobby as a whole .

Yea, I got pissed off on the TGN forum and told the lurker who took umbridge at my new name for Shawn Gately what he could do to himself. Probably me that got it shut down. Sorry about that. Really.

But I gotta jump back in here. I mean, come on, guys. Watch some the crap on his 'Gatelymusings' channel. Shawn hates the government. Cheating the IRS is just part of Gatelynomics, as he calls it.

He sees his employees as otherwise 'unemployables' who are lucky to have a job. Even has a video on Gatelymusings about it. So of course he treats them with disdain. He brags all of the time about how he is bettering the community and how much he is helping people.

And the way he treated me? I am not saying 'poor me.' My fault. As I mentioned on TGN, I should have listened to my wife. But can you imagine ignoring a person who drove over 1,000 miles to see you? For a week? Dude's something else.

Master Sheriff wrote:
There are so many better painting studios than BTP.


BTP charges out the ass for their lower level quality and it looks horrible. Their level 5 and over is nice, but who's higher quality, expensive stuff isn't, really?

Examples : Nukearts( dealt with him), redmodelling( dealt with him as well), golem painting studio, worthy painting, battleworthy arts, battle brush studios, next level studio, GMM studios, winterdyne commissions, Ifalna's painting studio and so many others I'm forgetting.

Don't forget BlackDog Painting Studio!

_Tim?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Derr wrote:
None of those models are even based.. Even if it's only sand and green flock, every BTP model at least gets that love.

I'm not sure I'd pay $10 for any of those models except the first one.

 WAAAAGGHH-god wrote:
you're kidding, right?

basing isn't mandatory for a commission, some people prefer to do their own as it's such a tricky thing to describe. even unbased, those models are worth far more than $10

Gotta agree with WAAAAAGH here. As the customer did not request a base, $10 is a steal. Heck, I charge $16 for that level of painting and I get some business. Why? Because (le gasp!) creating and executing a paintjob worth seeing is neither easy nor quick, and many, actually, most of us in the commission biz are doing this part-time, as we are also holding up another job or studying for a good portion of our days.
The other problem is that a ton of gamers expect commissions to be cheap. As explained above, this is not gonna happen. I had someone once ask me to paint 500 Orks...for $250 dollars! The person in question kept badgering me with questions and entreaties until I finally had to give him the cold hard facts of life. Good customers are hard to find and worth keeping close.

So it goes.

_Tim?

Say you're a painter at BTP and a client orders 10 Goblin Wolf Riders to fill out his army for the coming WAAAGH! For no frills level 3, the cost is $232.40. Know how much the painter gets? $43.73. Unless it takes him/her longer than 4 hours to complete, in which case he/she gets something else. Fired. See the problem?

You can do the math yourself.

Figures $35.00
Assembly $57.20
Painting $131.20
Shipping $9.00

Painter makes $11.00/hr.

Pricing is a fine line for comission painter ,but at the same time its a skilled trade .you wouldnt expect a plumber to do good work round your house and the hand him a few $.people need to think about this and how much their own free time they would be spending on painting is worth .iv seen some extremely talented people both on youtube and on the minatures page who cover just about everything you could think of.way i see it if you arent willing to pay somebody a fair wage to do it then get off your ass and do it yourself .iv painted god only knows how many figs over the past few years ,i got the mantic undead box with 110 figs and had it done to a decent tabletop standard in two weeks .i play a lot of games from historicals fantasy sci-fi in a mix of scales .if all i had to do was paint up one or two armies for say whfb and 40k id be laughing lol

Like any trade you also get the od cowboy comission painter out there .

Painter is allowed 1/3 of painting cost.

TrojanArt Painting wrote:
Painter is allowed 1/3 of painting cost.

It's actually less than that. It was 32% at one time, then dropped to 30% and now I understand that it's closer to 26% based on the time allowed at $11 per hour.

Keep in mind if a customer is given a discount it is reflected in the pay or allowed time.