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you're kidding, right?

basing isn't mandatory for a commission, some people prefer to do their own as it's such a tricky thing to describe. even unbased, those models are worth far more than $10

Indeed. I gave the customers exactly what he wanted. no models were to be based and they were already primed and assembled. I did have to clean up some of their old work and they left mold lines but it wan't my job to clean that up.

I used BTP for a brief period back in 2005 and 2006. They were the first professional painting service that I commissioned and initially I was very pleased with their work. However, I soon learned that their painting style did not suit the majority of armies that I played, and the cost to quality ratio was skewed in a manner that I did not find acceptable.

I agree with what others have posted regarding the friendly and professional manner in which BTP conducts business. I really think that is BTP's major strength. In each and every commission I conducted with BTP I felt confident that I would receive my miniatures back painted to my specifications. And towards the end when I was unhappy with a commission Shawn worked with me to bring about a somewhat satisfying conclusion to some problems that arose. So, in the arena of customer service they are top-notch. However, when it comes to painting I simply would not recommend the service. I have found their painting is problematic mainly for the high price and inconsistency of paint work they produce over an extended period of time. Having an army painted in stages where you send chunks at a time resulted in figures that sort of looked cohesive from afar, but had glaring issues the more scrutiny you gave the models. And I am not referring to the scrutiny between various paint levels, I am talking outright different colors used on the main elements of the army, basing, ect. Not having consistent paintwork over a span of a few months was a major deal breaker for me and why I prefer to use commission studios who have a smaller staff and less turn around in their painting staff.

For assembly and conversions my opinion is different. After having followed BTP's YouTube videos for a number of years I remain impressed with some of the creative ways in which they assemble and magnetize their client's models (which they charge a suitably hefty sum for). I would still consider sending an assembly project their way if I needed that sort of service, but I really doubt I would ever send another model to be painted.

For the morbidly curious here is the primary army I sent to BTP back in 2005.
http://bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=219

This gallery also contains some of the later additions to the army.
http://bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=87

BTP is great at painting undead. Their "style" of painting makes mummies, skeletons, and rotting corpses really pop. I was less impressed with how they handled models of living creatures and war machines.

For another US-based service that I absolutely adore check out Garden Ninja Studios. www.gardenninja.com

I have been using that service for over three years now and have had nothing but success. Plus, some of the projects that Garden Ninja has painted for me have spanned multiple years with the consistency of the paint work staying so close that it is difficult, or at times impossible, for me to distinguish when one model was painted over another.

Just wanted to pop in and say I've seen a lot of varied quality come out of BTP, but it is very important to keep in mind that sometimes some of their lower grade stuff is lower grade because it is being painted over prepainted, recycled models because thats what the customer WANTED.

Quite often when commissioning you get sent badly primed, already painted, or just very low quality casts and the customer does not want to pay extra to have them stripped and fixed up. Heck, I charge for any significant mold line removal. Not doing so would be a bit crazy, but a lot of the time the customer is totally ok with leaving mold lines even if other viewers would then see the images and point them out.

It's down to what the customer wants for their cash, not what people compare it to otherwise.

I do personally feel they overcharge a bit for their lower quality stuff, BUT that gets balanced out by how great they are to work with. You pay extra for the assurance of communication and feedback. I've seen them offer to repaint things the customer ended up unhappy with for free, so you seem covered either way!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


For the morbidly curious here is the primary army I sent to BTP back in 2005.
http://bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=219

This gallery also contains some of the later additions to the army.
http://bluetablepainting.com/view_gallery.php?galleryID=87

I clicked on the link and all I saw were gigantic pixels.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

For another US-based service that I absolutely adore check out Garden Ninja Studios. www.gardenninja.com

I have been using that service for over three years now and have had nothing but success. Plus, some of the projects that Garden Ninja has painted for me have spanned multiple years with the consistency of the paint work staying so close that it is difficult, or at times impossible, for me to distinguish when one model was painted over another.

These are some nice paint jobs!

 Ifalna wrote:
Just wanted to pop in and say I've seen a lot of varied quality come out of BTP, but it is very important to keep in mind that sometimes some of their lower grade stuff is lower grade because it is being painted over prepainted, recycled models because thats what the customer WANTED.

Qft. That green flocked army on the green flocked table is a perfect example of the customer getting what they wanted. Also, their web store ( http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting ) has better prices than ebay.

I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!

KrMaH wrote:
I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!

I went on buypainted's webpage (buypainted.com) and couldn't figure out what he was selling. His site is set up blog style, so I don't know which one are for sale, which ones are sold, which ones are just tutorials etc etc. I spent a few minutes on his site and gave up. But yeah, nice paint jobs.

Hey guys, sorry about the late reply I just spotted this thread.

A year ago I would have recommended BTP for reliable service and good quality IF you picked one of the good artists, which was most of them.

I can't say that now. They have lost almost all of their8 good talent and experience in the last few months, resulting in some very hit and miss paint jobs.

They are also having serious money issues that only get worse by the week due to a long string of bad business choices and money management by Shaun.

I will be suprised if BTP doesn't implode in the next few months.

@renfro and how do you have inside knowledge of their financial situation? It seems to me like they are doing better than ever before.

bowloflostcells wrote:

KrMaH wrote:
I am horribly worried that none has mentioned BuyPainted...
His work is absolutely stunning, a bit pricey though...
But the attention to details, his highlighting and his work with bases and mold lines is amazing!
Go check out his youtube page!

I went on buypainted's webpage (buypainted.com) and couldn't figure out what he was selling. His site is set up blog style, so I don't know which one are for sale, which ones are sold, which ones are just tutorials etc etc. I spent a few minutes on his site and gave up. But yeah, nice paint jobs.

his a commisioner so you email him with the things you want, the look you want and he will paint it for you. The stuff he paint are very high quality, for 5 GK termis in his tutorial its gonna cost you £150-£200 (a friend of my does commisions and gave me a estimate price) But you can always ask him directly.

ianj253 wrote:
@renfro and how do you have inside knowledge of their financial situation? It seems to me like they are doing better than ever before.

I worked there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You guys might be interested in this thread:
www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/

Renfro wrote:

You guys might be interested in this thread:
www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/

What the heck is this? Sorry, this just came to my attention. I watched this video called "Huge Discourse on BTP's Kickstarter", 26 min of patting himself on the back. Ok up to this point I was just skeptical about BTP but after seeing that I'm really not liking these guys.

He's making it seem like he invented the idea of custom painted armies. He's making it seem like he's the only one who has done prepainted armies before (even though he admits that they are all over ebay.)

From everything I've seen, BTP's work is sub-par at best. It's nearly never worth what they charge. They are already a huge impersonal, indifferent to quality and customer experience assembly line, and they are raising more money to create an even larger indifferent/impersonal assembly line. He even described it as such saying that customer's would have a ticket and watch these armies get cranked out.

BTP is great at promoting themselves. They are turning into the Walmart and McDonalds of commission painting. Crap quality, but their videos seem to be everywhere and you can't get away from them. It is my fear that, just as Walmart has put out of business many mom and pop shops, BTP is putting out of business many high quality commission painters. To me this is extremely disturbing.

From the time that I was thinking of using BTP until now, I had kept and open mind and given them the benefit of the doubt. After watching that video, I can clearly say that I have never seen somebody more full of himself than this man.

There are some very serious criminal charges in these comments, including tax fraud:

"... we were advised to misrepresent our work status to the IRS and refused. That and honest criticism got us all fired. “. surely that is illegal isn’t it ?"

This definitely is not proof that any sort of tax fraud actually happened. But with such serious charges, I hope that these claims are investigated thoroughly.

It also seems that Shawn has been censoring criticism in his youtube comments, which appears to be the main reason that I never see negative comments on his youtube videos. There's nothing but adoring fans there:

bluetablepaintingshawn wrote:
October 29, 2012 at 11:37 am

I try and keep things positive on my Youtube channel. I tend it carefully like a garden. If it seems to me that someone wants to just start up a firestorm I make that go away.

Renfro wrote:

ianj253 wrote:
@renfro and how do you have inside knowledge of their financial situation? It seems to me like they are doing better than ever before.

I worked there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You guys might be interested in this thread:
www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/

I suggest everyone read this, its amazing what you find.

I have almost read it all and I have seen atleast 3 ex employee/trial painters saying how untrustworthy and dishonest BTP is. The point out the main points:

1. BTP actively delete negative comments on youtube while in the thread says "completely in the open".
2. Attitude towards employees are terriable, one of the trial painters (TrojanArtPainting, Dan) did not even get to speak to the manager at the place for a week.
3. Their trial scheme is rubbish. You get to live in a rented house with only a bed and you work extreme hours and they don't pay for over time.
4. I have noticed BTP have not commented/replied to any of the comments from their ex employee or people who worked with/for them.
5. Apparently they are in trouble with orders or money (but its sorted out now from what BTP is saying) read the thread and judge for yourself.

I personally whould not like to be part of this company nor ever let them paint my models, more on topic, the kick starter is just a big lie to get them money, free money.

Iv been pestering BTP the past few days (im down with the flu right now so it seems like years lol ) about this whole kickstarter thing .iv pretty much had all my comments removed and my accounts blocked . to me this just seems like BTP blagging hard cash off their fans yet again .anybody remember them asking for people to donate money towards paint and roller blinds for the building ? yeah well i looked up the state laws on that at the time ,and thats all stuff they can right off v tax plus any money they got was ah donation so therefore not taxable .thats handy isnt it you buy paint & blinds then right it off and put the hand out to your fans for the same money the tax man just let you off with lol win win for BTP .dont think to many people were to happy with me about that but i say what i see and i dont let abuse from fanboys get me down when i see wargamers being exploited .

BTP have been doing the really hard sell lately with the whole forget what you really need and just pay us for an army .now i dont mind somebody saying at the end of vids "hey check out our site we have some good deals" what i dont like is being brow beaten for 10-25min about why im scum if i dont give them the best part of £1000 for an army that looks awful .i dont want to kick the wasps nest but the kind of people who flat out defend BTP tend to say the same kinds of things as people who do the same every year GW has a price hike .to me fanboys wreck any hobby or comunity because they just wont see sense and arent helping real fans at all .but i was beginning to feel like i was banging my head off a brick wall with this whole kickstarter thing .

How BTP can put the hand out to their youtube fans to the tune of $40.000 is beyond me .esp when they have loads of trade stock knocking about they could make nice small starter armies of say 1000pts out of no bother .it just seems to me youtube or at least a large section of it has become all about ego`s and e-begging these days .and thats a large part of why i dont post any stuff on there anymore .today i got that fed up with having my comments removed and being blocked for telling people to check out the TGN thread i made a rubbish video .it was in the vain hope somebody would see it and at least goto TGN and see for themselves whats going on over there ,but as always there seems to be like minded people out there scratching their heads and asking the same questions .

Like i say im really not feeling good right now what with the flu an all ,but i will make the time to go back thru the posts on here and see what other gamers have been saying .but first i need meds and hot tae lol

Well, honestly I was looking at them to paint my army in the near future. But probably will not. After completely ready the TGN thread, I must say that I am a bit surprised. But I guess Shawn has been able to keep quite a bit of people in lala land with his "shock-wave's of happiness."

I must say that I was never really inclined to hand out for the KickStarter. The one I was contemplating was the Reaper for their Bones line. The reason I bring this up is because it was light and day the rewards you got for contributing between one KS and the other.

I can understand the smaller pledge rewards not being that entertaining. But if you are donating 2-300 or more you should get more than a small pat on the back. Most of the rewards seem just that, a pat on the back. And its not like they could not do something with all the trade stock they already have. Say if you donate 100, you get 1 SM tactical squad painted to Level 3. How much did he pay for that tactical squad in trade? Nothing really, he gave someone who commissioned an army maybe 10-15 dollars (if that) off his project.

I believe if they are in the trouble that is sounds like from reading the TGN thread, they really should have put a bit more thought into their KS.

Ok since people here seem to be interested in whats going on over at the TGN page .you may want to head over there and look at the last few posts .by the way you may find this link useful as btp are claiming the tax issue is about the workers being described as contractors not employees and yes that matters, what happened to “We pay $11 per hour, which I think is pretty good for regular work painting miniatures. –Shawn”

now it`s "Robert here again.The tax thing is a very old matter. It was a problem of how employees were described to the IRS. We described them as independent contractors because they were paid on commission (which is correct by law),

I`l admit i know very little about US tax laws .and i dont know all the facts thats a given really .but heres the US tax laws covering all this .you can make of that what you will but it diffidently makes for interesting reading given whats going on at the moment .right im off to drink lots of hot tae and nurse this flu .

http://www.sba.gov/content/independent-contractors-vs-employees

bowloflostcells wrote:

 Arrathon wrote:
. Also one more commission painter whom is well known that does insane work is Nuclerasuar here on dakka (i might have his name spelt wrong) he is a god with OSL painting.

holy crap......

nuclealosaur's facebook............

It sucks that he's overseas, but if he has a good rep on dakka then a lot of my qualms are alleviated. Honestly, there are no pictures on BTP that look as good as his. None.


This:Blue Table Salamander Land Raider



Or This: Nuclealosaur DA Land Raider

Nuclealosaur DA Rhino



Wow, Nuclealosaur and GMM are in a different league than BTP honestly:

GMM Salamander Rhino

Meade wrote:@ bowloflostcells: If you're going to compare those three vehicles, we need a price tag for how much each would cost.... s&h included...

Nuke arts has great painting, but would be more of a boutique thing probably. That salamanders land raider, has highlights on the paint dents... clearly a lot of fiddly time was spent on it. The GMM paintjobs, for what I assume is intermediate level, is pretty simple airbrushing + sponge and not on par with Nuke arts, but what is the cost?

Hey guys!

We can't let you know the cost on here incase it violates Dakka's T +C. However I can assure you it was very competitive! Feel free to email me at Ukrep@nukearts.co.uk
(even if you don't want a commission, we love dealing with hobbists and alot are pleasantly surprised by our prices!)
Or alternatively check through our facebook pictures, we are very open about quality and pricing!

I'm glad you mentioned us here, and bowl I have pmed you. Just incase there were any questions you wished to ask us, we'd like to help you if possible!


Thank you for claiming our work is boutique! It's great to hear it explained as so.


I'd like to take some time to explain us though:

However what we do is build and paint armies. And we definitely do armies to that standard. We have lower and higher standards, but we like to think we are competitively priced and that we offer great quality. We have a team of dedicated artists, who are simply pro with both airbrush and hand brush. We are also constantly striving to improve, and pride ourselves that each stage of the project is handled by a person who is a master in that aspect. Our team are pros before they touch our valued customer's minis.
We are also dedicated to giving 100% customer sanctification and service, despite time differences we reply to queries within 24 hours, and we are only an email away. You can even contact us via facebook message, which we will often reply to almost immediately. We follow customers instruction to the letter to ensure they are 100% happy, and we use safe, tracked insured courier. We also have the ability to order minis in for you.

We also want to give back to the community, and are looking to sponsor events.


Sorry for hijacking the thread, I saw our name mentioned and just wanted to assure people we paint, assemble and convert full armies, at very competitive prices! We are also growing all the time, so there is no fear in that regard.

Thanks guys, happy hobbying.

I work for Blue Table Painting, and would like to post my perspective. Now I haven’t read every post here. Keep that in mind please.

Pick the painting service that is right for you! Every company / person is different


Now, a little bit about me and who I work for.

I have been at dakka dakka for a while, I even have a Warseer account (started there back when it was Portent.net, but haven't posted there in forever) My various accounts are all under the same name. I have a decent reputation on batertown and ebay (ebay is igen-s-tilch) Also posted what I have worked on, on my deviant art account.
-Side note, don’t judge to harshly at my old conversions and painting, its gotten worlds better by working with the painters and assemblers at Blue Table Painting.

Moving on then. I started back in June 2012. Originally I was a painter, I worked for commission, I was not paid hourly. I would be assigned an order, given a time frame for how quickly it needed to be done, I was also given a sheet that had the quality requested, as well as final instructions that the client requested. Most of the problems I would encounter were due to unclear client instructions. I was trained, shown different techniques, and was trusted to do a job well. Once it was turned in, some one would examine my work, if it didn’t match quality, It would be sent back to me. And I would have to keep working on it until it passed inspection.

At the end of August. I was given the opportunity to work in assembly, doing conversion work and such. Which is where I work mainly now (turns out I was more efficient at assembly than painting).

The company has gone through significant changes sense I have started there. And all of them are changes that are trying to make things better, for BTP, and our clients. Quality control has been tightened significantly. It used to be that if a client paid for a low quality model, mold lines were not cleaned up very well, due to limited budget, which is directly related to the amount of time we can spend on it. Now every model is cleaned up to table top quality, even more so if a client has requested custom work and higher level painting. We are not producing Golden Daemon on a mass scale, what we are doing is providing table top quality armies in mass. If you want a model that wows people, we have to spend significantly more time on it. And I have to eat and pay the bills. Time is money, just the way it is, I would love to spend extra hours on every project, but its not in the budget, finite funds means finite time. But take a look at our recent work for an accurate estimate of quality. http://www.bluetablepainting.com/index.php

Over all, I love my job, its a dream job to me. I quit a full time job with benefits to work full time for Shawn. I see him every day, and yea, he is not your average man, Though honestly, it takes a different kind of person to be a hobbyist, an artist, and a business man. I'm glad he established Blue Table Painting, and has given me an opportunity to work with the games I love for a living.

Now there are some ex-employes with hurt feelings, I was almost one of them (when we made the switch to hourly, My time spent vs productivity wasn't looking very good). Many artists hate having to work by the hour for painting or sculpting (how many people time themselves by the minute when painting or sculpting?), it is a unique position to have. The commission system was done away with. The switch to hourly was a blow to many of our staff who had other things to work around, and those that took the job for a loose work schedule. There were a lot of changes and adjustments. It didn't work for every one. There are rough patches, as it is for any small company. Sadly some trial painters arrived during those rough patches, and things didn't go smoothly. There will most likely be some more rough patches in the future. But I can promise every one here, we that work there, all the staff, want to make this a successful company, and happy, satisfied customers are the main key to that, I take pride in getting an email or comment on how happy a client is with the work I have done. I live for it. I also feel it personally when a client disliked my conversion. (though the only time that occurred was due to a unclear client instruction.)

We have some unhappy clients. It happens. Expectations for art work can be hard to gauge. If you are unhappy with our work. PLEASE contact us. We cant do anything about it if we don't know. But we do have a significant amount of return customers, Today a project hit my desk that was the tenth order from that individual.

With regards to picture quality on our web site. It is my opinion that it was done that way for years, because of limited budget for a web site. Higher data traffic increase costs and such. This is being addressed. There are improvements coming, and increased picture quality is on the priority list.

On the subject of the other forum thread, we didn't even know about it till very recently. Shawn decided to feed the trolls by posting a response. Some BTP staff may have submitted their 2 cents. I wont post there, at least on this topic, due to me not being an active member in that community, and would have to open a new account. Just remember, people love to say a lot of things on the internet (for better or worse) when they can hide behind a pen name.

In closing, here is me, in the flesh, taking part in a BTP video. At 2:54, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qD9bddRmmbc#t=174s

Pick the painting service that is right for you! Every company / person is different.

PS: I'm posting this all on my own, Shawn and my art director said we are free to act on this as we see fit.

2nd PS: I personally was not a fan of the kickstarter, I enjoy doing made to order armies. But Shawn thinks there's a market for it. Though I am tempted to put my own money in for a fully painted Infinity army. Either way, I will stay with BTP and Shawn till life takes me elsewhere.


Quick question for Nukearts, what was the cost... EDIT: What was the time spent on that land raider? I honestly would like to know how we compare in pricing to other services.

Man I would be cagey as heck in dealing with BTP at the moment, my mate decided to give them a whirl with a new list expansion.. that was over 5 weeks ago and they only just told him they haven't actually ordered any models yet!!!

All the while Shawn is on youtube telling us about how fast their turn around is, and now it's all about this cash injection they are chasing via kickstarter.

From where I am sitting it appears to me, and it's just my opinion that BTP have no cash flow and a company with no cash flow is dead quick smart. They are constantly coming up with ways to get cash upfront that's not redeemable immediately and looking for an investor.

Would love to know how much "store" credit (debt) is on the books as a liability. All I know is when you can't order peoples models due to lack of funds something is up... and if it isn't due to a lack of funds BTP talks the talk but can't walk the walk of real customer service.

I really hope they pull out the stops for my mates sake but to be honest I am expecting it to be a train wreck and a very costly lesson.

TGN comments are stopped and it was kinda getting outta hand over there.but all other matters aside and trying to get back on what this all meant to be about .i do think the tone of recent year or so BTP videos have really gone with the hard sell,and its been getting to the stage were we have 10-20min video`s on why we should forget everything and purchase a BTP army asap .it feels like your being brow beaten to the point were its oh here we go again the same old .i think that kinda already had peoples backs up before the kickstarter .esp now youtube has gotten more about money and ego`s .im forgetting youtube adds before video`s which are basically add`s .anyway then its we are doing a kickstarter so we can paint more stuff ? and we want $40.000 to do what we do anyway ok ?

so people who are into the hobby and have already backed a few kickstarters chances are get really pissed off .its like me saying hey i sell turnips and people cant get enough of them in fact its very important i sell lots of them so give me $40.000 and il send you some turnips ? this isn't like the cd above that i assume had new tracks on it tracks nobody would know about without fans chipping in .if BTP really wants to help new gamers get into the hobby and get return customers wouldn't it be better to tone down the brow beating ,not saying dont mention what you do i mean that is the point of the video`s after all to show case your stuff and let gamers know what you do .

but man ya really gotta tone that down .the other thing would be to get that stuff in trade stock and make small battle force style armies that don't need to be big flashy uber armies .even 500pts cant remember the rules for that (me not 40k player) that would give people a way into the hobby even go smaller than that .if they are happy with the service and get into the game chances are you will have those same gamers coming back from time to time and saying hey you couldn't paint me up xyz from your trade stock .ok it may not be cutting edge stuff but its an in .there's a fair few people out there playing a low pts plus you can throw it in with your regular army in your army bag or whatever .game ends early but not enough time to get another full game or just feel like a change .my point is you should be doing more with what you already have ,not brow beating fans and then flat out asking for money .it gets gamers backs up .its not fun when your watching video`s in which you are constantly being nagged .

I was subscribed to BTP on youtube because the guy running the channel seemed like a friendly sort of person. I was really hoping to get some painting tips when I originally subscribed. Unfortunetly, the channel seems to have degenerated into very, very long-winded sales pitches to try to get peoples' money. And for a company that supposedly specializes in painting minis, I haven't seen much in the way of helpful videos for people out there aspiring to paint. Last few months have been one silly video after another, and not very much showcasing their finished product.

About the only reason I'm still subscribed at this point is because of their crossover stuff with Miniwargaming. Someone should advise Miniwargaming to be alert to what BTP is doing. Don't loan them any money, and don't attempt any sort of joint-venture business with them until BTP clears up the internal problems they seem to be riddled with lately.

I had planned on writing a lengthy and specific reply on the TGN forum (I'm Disgruntled_Ex), but since comments have been disabled, I'm here to present the facts of my allegations.

Robert replied: "The tax thing is a very old matter. It was a problem of how employees were described to the IRS. We described them as independent contractors because they were paid on commission (which is correct by law), yet they went ahead and filed as employees because they felt that independent contractors shouldn’t be allowed to be given specific instructions regarding their work. I was a Realtor for a long time, and every Realtor is an independent contractor. I am pretty familiar with the law, and I know for a fact that IC’s can be given extremely specific instructions. It was really just a bunch of people who got mad about having to complete jobs in a timely fashion. It is the sad nature of most people, that when there is no deadline and on one watching, that they drag their feet. They felt it was against the law for us to set deadlines for work. So they caused some problems. There are a few more details, but most of those are on a personal level with the specific people (and I don’t typically air dirty laundry as they say), so I’ll leave those out, unless they wish to disclose them, at which point I can go into detail. But that is for sure, the long and short of it. No tax fraud problems, we are fine, still here, still going."

Robert is either woefully misinformed or intentionally misrepresenting the facts.

Here are the facts:

During 2006-2008 my wife and I worked for BTP as Office Manager and artist, respectively. We were hired as independent contractors, and required to sign a non-compete agreement as a condition of our working for BTP. This agreement stated that we would not seek out work that could in any way be construed as competition for BTP. The contract did not state a time period - in essence, the contact implied an indefinite agreement. Shawn Gately confirmed this by telling me that even after we left BTP, if we painted for profit, he was completely within his rights to come after us "for every dollar" we might make.

The status of independent contractor is defined, by IRS law, as a service provider that has at least 2 different customers/clients in a calender year. Anything less, and you're really an employee. These regulations are clearly stated on the IRS website, and can be fact checked in less than 2 minutes.

Approximately 8 months into out time at BTP, my wife was approached by Shawn. He suggested that she make a website advertising her administrative services, so it would appear that she was not his employee but rather a contractor for hire. Let me be clear about this: Shawn suggested this, this was his idea, and the obvious and only explanation for this is that he was trying to avoid having employees and avoid paying employee taxes, etc.

After a very short discussion, my wife and I agree that we would in no way deceive anyone re: our tax status, and this situation needed to be discussed before April, when we were due to file our taxes. Around this same time, I began selling painted miniatures on eBay to supplement my income.

The next few months saw 4 separate meetings regarding BTPs workers tax status. We had all signed agreements (quickly discovered to be nonenforceable and not legally binding) that insisted we not work for anyone but BTP, and yet we were also instructed to file taxes as independent contractors. In meeting after meeting, that impossible combination was brought up, and time and again, Shawn Gately ignored our concerns. He insisted his agreements were valid and accurate and that he was perfectly capable and willing to take any of us to court to have them enforced. Simultaneously, he insisted that we were all independent contractors and that we should file as such. During the last meeting, when presented with a printout of the IRS tax page entitled "Am I an employee or independent contractor?" clearly supporting our conclusions and concerns, Shawn replied by saying, "Well, you know, I don't think anyone really knows what the exact law is."

48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.

3 painters were immediately rehired, and oddly enough, those 3 painters were the people who were not assertive or contentious re: the tax status issue.

My wife and I files our taxes as employees. We were contacted by the IRS and by Mr. Gately's attorney for information regarding our claims. Mr. Gately attempted to contact us multiple times to 'talk things over," and we did not return his calls.

As I said, this was 4 years ago. I do not know who Robert from the above quote is. But I can say with absolute certainty that the explanation and dismissal he has provided is not factual in any way. During my time at BTP, I was the 2nd highest painter re: productivity, was promoted to Art Director, and honestly enjoyed my work. Productivity was never an issue. Deadlines were not a problem. I never once witness a complaint or voiced one re: specific project instructions. Robert's conclusions are simply incorrect.

Now you know the facts behind the allegations.

 Igenstilch wrote:
I love my job, its a dream job to me. I quit a full time job with benefits to work full time for Shawn. I see him every day, and yea, he is not your average man, Though honestly, it takes a different kind of person to be a hobbyist, an artist, and a business man. I'm glad he established Blue Table Painting, and has given me an opportunity to work with the games I love for a living.

 Igenstilch wrote:


2nd PS: I personally was not a fan of the kickstarter, I enjoy doing made to order armies. But Shawn thinks there's a market for it. Though I am tempted to put my own money in for a fully painted Infinity army. Either way, I will stay with BTP and Shawn till life takes me elsewhere.

Wow, people were saying that BTP is like a cult... this is definitely not helping you.


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 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:

We were contacted by the IRS and by Mr. Gately's attorney for information regarding our claims.

I am sorry that you and your wife had to go through that. You are saying that the IRS investigated these claims. What came out of this investigation?


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 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:


48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.

Shawn wrote in a comment something that is a bit contradictory. He says he didn't fire any of you, and that you guys went on to start your own company. Which is the truth?:

Rob does have one detail incorrect: I didn’t fire my then-workers. Most of them started up their own painting company and went out on their own. Again, I wished them well then and still do so. I have gone forward with a heart free of ill-will.

You are saying that the IRS investigated these claims. What came out of this investigation?

If you look at the TGN thread you will see that Shawn himself says he choose not to defend the complaint and the IRS made him pay up;

When someone files a complaint with the IRS they assume guilt. Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties. Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it.

When the whopping bill came due (they want it all paid immediately and up front) my family was devastated. It was about half what we made in a year.

To me they pretty much vindicates what these ex employee's have been saying, and if they are being truthful on that matter I don't see why they aren't being truthful on the others they have raised. You only choose not to fight something worth 50% of your annual income when you know you are in the wrong.

I really hope they turn some things around, and it looks like Worthy Painting might be taking the good lessons to be learned from BTP and moving in their own direction.. I would be interested to know if their is a financial arrangement here as the Worthy Paintings website while a lot better looking is almost word for word BTP... the Polices etc are pretty much identical. Shawn has also been mentioning them quite a bit in his youtube videos of late..

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 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:

We were contacted by the IRS and by Mr. Gately's attorney for information regarding our claims.

I am sorry that you and your wife had to go through that. You are saying that the IRS investigated these claims. What came out of this investigation?

I honestly can't say, as I wasn't around for the actual events. I can say a friend was one of those immediately-rehired painters, and he confirmed that BTP had problems with the IRS as a result - fines, etc. but even he didn't give hard facts - I assume he only relayed what Shawn might have been saying around the studio. However, in the now-closed TGN thread, Shawn writes:

"When someone files a complaint with the IRS they assume guilt. Instead of fighting it I just conceded and paid the interest and penalties."

I'm taking that as confirmation that he was investigated by the IRS, that his claiming actual employees as independent contractors was discovered, and he was fined/penalized.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Middle Pillar Path Jay wrote:


48 hours after that meeting, we had another meeting, where we were all fired.

Shawn wrote in a comment something that is a bit contradictory. He says he didn't fire any of you, and that you guys went on to start your own company. Which is the truth?:

The truth is that 3 of us at BTP - 1 assembler and 2 painters - were proactive once we discovered the IRS status discrepancy. None of us wanted problems with the IRS, so we started doing work on the side to fulfill the 'at least 2 clients' aspect of the IRS requirements. And for the record, comparing our workload to BTP would be like comparing a hot dog stand to McDonalds. We were not competition for BTP. We had no desire to compete with BTP.

This side company was brought up at the 4th and final meeting, and we were told this 'betrayal' was one of the primary factors in Shawn's decision to 'return to solo painting" and let everyone go. So, to be clear - we did not leave to form a separate company. We formed a side company, and were then fired from BTP.

Rob does have one detail incorrect: I didn’t fire my then-workers. Most of them started up their own painting company and went out on their own. Again, I wished them well then and still do so. I have gone forward with a heart free of ill-will.

The final word on the subject is this....

Blue Table Painting does good work for a fair price. Their staff is very professional and were extremely easy to work with. I was very satisfied with the limited project that I commissioned through them.

Here is the deal. This is a hobby so paint your own stuff. Of course this isn't a realistic idea for many players out their who either have zero talent, no patience, or want the latest and greatest, power build without having to do any work on their own to paint it. ( Note - BTP is now running a special on Cron Air as well as Flamers and Screamers! ) Seriously, they offer a decent service and you get what you pay for. There will always be critics, and there will always be the stories of people who contract for level 2-3 painting and post that they were cheated because every model wasn't Golden Daemon quality. If you are cautious of what you will get, contract a small squad with maybe one character or two before you lay out big bucks for a whole army. Again, if you don't like what they do, pick up your own paintbrush, just quite flaming on Shawn and his staff when you are too damn lazy to paint your own junk!

-Rant over-

MajorSoB wrote:
...if you don't like what they do, pick up your own paintbrush, just quite flaming on Shawn and his staff when you are too damn lazy to paint your own junk!

My contribution to this thread wasn't flaming, and it wasn't motivated by laziness or jealousy or even resentment.

Both Robert AND Shawn clearly distorted the facts on the TGN thread. I felt compelled to set the record straight.

MajorSoB wrote:
The final word on the subject is this....

Blue Table Painting does good work for a fair price.

MajorSoB wrote:


Seriously, they offer a decent service and you get what you pay for.

No, you obviously miss the point of this thread. Originally the purpose of this thread was to determine whether or not Blue Table Painting was worth their price. The general consensus after considering many people's testimony on BTP's quality and comparing their results to other commission painters out there, is that they are not worth the price. You do not get what you pay for.

The final word is that there are many painters much better than BTP, may of them are also considerably cheaper. Also due to the questionable ethical practices of BTP, I will refrain from using their services.

I hope that the current controversy surrounding BTP will push people to start looking at the many other quality commission painters who are working honestly and ethically.

Please don't hop onto a thread that you haven't read and say that you have the final word. Thanks.

I was reading the the thread over on TGN and the comments have been turned off so I decided to hop over here.

If you read BTP's comments it seems all of their painters are counted as "Independent Contractors" to the IRS. So I followed another link someone posted in the TGN mega thread about the difference between "Employees" and "Indpendent Contractors." It says that an Independent Contractor is expected to use all his/her own personal tools in the completion of a job. However, in TrojanArtPainting's thread he says one of the painters took him over to the communal tool area provided by BTP. (I guess this means paint and brushes.) But, if the BTP painters are getting their paints and brushes from BTP then they can't be considered independent contractors. They would have to buy all the paints and brushes needed for each project themselves. Am I reading that right?