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6th edition has for some reason got me really pumped for Ogryns but having not actually played a game of 6th yet have a few queries I would like to put out there.

I'm looking to run a small squad of 4 with a Lord Commissar w/ Power Axe as an antidote to Terminators amongst other things. Obviously a big points sink but is seems like fun and eats up a chunk of the spare 250 points I have.

So does anyone have any experience with a similar unit? Tactics that have successfully been used etc.

I would have more than 4 Ogryns as I simply can't lay my hands on any more immediately for the next few weeksand wil be looking to up the number to 5 if used with a Chimera or more if foot slogging is proving to be useful.

Would love to try them, but getting them into combat can be a pain. As well as assault being harder for units that start in transports, with the advent of allies and the price of ogryn you can field a unit of terminators for the same cost. Without power weapons they are also not that great at killing marines/terminators.

Happy for someone to tell me how to use them, but they seem like another rough rider type unit that I woud like to field but just isn't competitive.

Hulk is a big fan of them:

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/2011/06/ogryns-shunned-abused.html

There sheer weight of strength 5 attacks plus their assault weapon makes them much better at killing MeQ/TeQ then people seem to realize, or so the story goes. I don't play IG myself, but they seem very similar to Grotesques, which another strong but often under appreciates unit.

Don't forget that furious charge got nerfed, so on the charge they are still only I2. So same issue as Necrons in close combat but without the armour. Pretty much everything bar fists/hammers etc go before them and they get no armour save against any kind of power weapon. 2 rounds of goign second in close combat and even if they win the unit is shredded and pretty much out of the game.

They also go down easier in shooting. Ok they're toughness 5 but they still have that crummy 5+ armour save and cover for intervening units is only 5+ and not the 4+ it was in 5th ... and I'm not even bringing overwatch into the equation.

Ogryns are not an antidote to Terminators!
Ogryns are fun but they suck. I mean there are arguments for their usefulness but i think everyone is agreed the are too expensive for what they bring to the table.

They do two things moderately well:

They make a decent counter charge unit for a static Gun Line list.

They put out a lot of S5 shots and can be loaded up in a Chimera for drive-bys.

With the new Vehicle damage rules and (marginally) the nerf to FC they are even less useful than they previously were.
That being said they still fit the roles above.

I personally believe a squad size of 5+ (including the Bone 'ead) is a must and when loaded in a Chimera i prefer to run them with a Primaris Psyker (rolling on Biomancy) because he's chaper than a Lord Commissar and also potentially offers some decent abilities or at the very least adds some more fire-power with Smite. If they are being used to support a Gun Line (and you have some points for Wargear) then a Lord Commissar is a good choice with his 6" bubble aiding your other units and a re-rollable Stubborn Ld10 should keep the Ogryns from falling back or breaking combat.

Simple strategy - keep them out of the way/blended with the rest of your army until you want them in the way/out and proud, or they will be shot to death/lose too many models to be effective.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Ogryn ARE an antidote to terminators. For the price of 5 terminators, you get 6 ogryn. That's 30 S5 shots for likely 2 dead terminators, and then 36 S5 attacks (to round out the casualties to 3 or 4) if you get to charge, all before the first powerfist or thunderhammer swing (which will likely not even kill a single ogryn). Meanwhile, assault terminators don't get to shoot at ogryn at all, and tactical terminators just cause the ogryn to giggle at all that tickly bolter fire.

Anyways, I had reasonable success with ogryn, especially in 5th ed with a souped-up lord commissar.

I haven't been taking them lately for two reasons. The first is because there are JUST enough hard counters to them to make them JUST too risky to field. You'll do fine and then you're going to go up against a tau player with railguns or a guard player with manticores, or a BA player with mephiston, or a GK player with force weapon everything, or a necron player with a doom ray, etc. etc. Ogryn are either dead difficult to kill, or they instantly evaporate. This makes me somewhat uncomfortable with such an expensive unit.

The other reason I don't take ogryn is because they compete with stormtroopers for elites slots, and stormtroopers are friggin' phenominal. My ogryn are sometimes rather useful, but most of the time nothing particularly special. My stormies have been MVP in almost all of the last 9 games I've played with them.

Also, I'd like to note that while glancing vehicles to death made ogryn better, the same change made a LOT of stuff better. For example, 4 ogryn no longer strike me as substantially better than a bolter boat punisher for the same price.

Ailaros is right. Ogryns can soak up small arms like no-one's business, but a single Demolisher can destroy them pretty easily. Watching 200+ points go down from a single shot is heartbeaking. If your enemy shows up with 2 or 3 you're basically boned.

A single Demolisher can make a lot of things disappear pretty quickly though, yeah?

Plus, with 5 dudes and an IC it's seems like you can spread them out enough to not fit under a single pieplate. What size base are they on?

medium-sized (40mm). Still, losing 3 ogryn in one shot is un-fun. Losing 3 guardsmen is losing 15 points. Losing 3 ogryn is 130 points. Yes, demolishers throw the same number of models off the board per shot, but when those models cost you 40 points apiece, that hurts more than usual for guard.

Plus, it's not just demolishers, there's lots of stuff that's S10. Furthermore, ogryn also hate things like autocannons more than regular guard as well. A pair of psyfleman dreads will make very, very short work of a unit of ogryn. They may have hard counters, but they also have soft counters too.

 Ailaros wrote:
medium-sized (40mm). Still, losing 3 ogryn in one shot is un-fun. Losing 3 guardsmen is losing 15 points. Losing 3 ogryn is 130 points. Yes, demolishers throw the same number of models off the board per shot, but when those models cost you 40 points apiece, that hurts more than usual for guard.

Plus, it's not just demolishers, there's lots of stuff that's S10. Furthermore, ogryn also hate things like autocannons more than regular guard as well. A pair of psyfleman dreads will make very, very short work of a unit of ogryn. They may have hard counters, but they also have soft counters too.

True, but Guardsmen are generally more bunched up by necessity. And Psyfleman dreads aren't that big of a threat relative to similar 40 point models. You kill about .66 of a Ogryn per volley versus .50 of a Term, where as a Psycannon (squad variety, ie not twinlinked, assuming standing) kills about .60 terms but only about .50 Ogryns (assuming cover for all these shots). You start looking at the full resiliency matrix and you'll seem them have both advantages and disadvantages against similar models, but they really shine against small arms fire, which really is the most prevalent killer of infantry in the game, despite perceptions otherwise (simply because there is a lot more of it). Rending, AP 2 and 1, sub strength 10 weapons will all generally favor the Ogryn over the Term. Just seems to me that's the fairest comparison, as they both fulfill similar roles.

ShadarLogoth wrote: You start looking at the full resiliency matrix and you'll seem them have both advantages and disadvantages against similar models, but they really shine against small arms fire

Right.

Or, to summarize, they're great against small arms/regular CC attacks. They're about on-par for mid-strength attacks, but nothing special, and they have a few hard counters.

In the end, you get a unit that's worth taking, but not particularly spectacular. A statement which has also matched my small set of empirical evidence from having played them myself.

Shouldn't really have paint 4 of the buggers up then.

I was planning to use them agains vanilla marines/DAs.

For all comers like Saturdays TTN tourney at Wayland I will be sticking to my horde/Sentinwall. Should be a laugh seeing if I can make poweblobs work in 6th.

They're not BAD, they're just not great. If you're in a position where you're reasonably assured not to run into too many hard counters - like playing against vanilla marines/DA - then you can go for it.

I loved Ogryns in 5th, and I'm loving them in 6th, for different sorts of reasons. I usually run 5 in a Chimera with LC and Powerfist. I like the Psyker, but the extra WS, wound, and leadership on the LC keeps him alive longer, making the squad way more reliable. They do have some hard counters, but hey, it's a Guard army. You've got firepower, you should be able wreck any serious problem to them before it's an issue.

Biophysical wrote:They do have some hard counters, but hey, it's a Guard army. You've got firepower, you should be able wreck any serious problem to them before it's an issue.

Oh, that brings up another point. Ogryn are more reliant on support than other options in your army. With other units, you don't need the rest of your army trying really hard to keep them safe against hard counters. Less so with ogryn. The rest of your list has to support the ogryn as much as the ogryn need to support the rest of your list.

At least, moreso than with units like russes or vendettas or stormies, etc.

This is true, but Ogryn also are a much more decisive unit that the rest of the Guard list also. They also do things in the list that nothing else does.

Biophysical wrote:
They also do things in the list that nothing else does.

Biophysical wrote:
I usually run 5 in a Chimera with LC and Power fist.

That's 350pts for:
AV - F:12 S:10
3 S6
3 S5 (assuming hull bolter although hull flamer seems more likely)
15 S5
= 21 shots
All at BS3 and within 12" (for the majority)

Ailaros wrote:... 4 Ogryns no longer strike me as substantially better than a bolter boat punisher for the same price.

250pts:
AV - F:14 S:13
20 S5
9 S5
= 29 shots
With Pask firing at BS4 (and Crack Shot) and within 24"

Punisher owns it. Forget Pask and you can take a second for only 50pts more than the above Ogryns load out.
Realistically though you'd just take any of the better Russ options over a Punisher and that being said i don't see how Ogryns fill a "decisive" role if it is so easy to replace a unit that does their role better.
Of course this is just a direct comparison and i'm ignoring the Ogryns' CC ability here because it is unlikely to come in to effect. Even so 210+pts gives you more dakka to shoot CC units to death before they reach you.

 notprop wrote:
I was planning to use them against vanilla marines/DAs.
For all comers like Saturdays TTN tourney...

I like Ogryns i really do and as i said they are fun but they are not remotely competitive or even all that good at what they are supposed to do (imo). If you were playing for fun i'd say take them (especially against Vanilla Marines) but for a competitive game almost (maybe literally) anything else in the codex is a better choice and anything in the Elites slot is certainly better.

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Why do your think their close combat role won't have an effect?

Turn 1: Move the Chimera 18"
Turn 2: Get out, move and shoot up some stuff (6-12" movement)
Turn 3: Any number of things are probably in your 6+2D6" assault range now.

Ogryn are infantry, which means they're one of the very few things in the Codex that can go out and contest an objective. They're durable for the points, and compact enough to focus their power over a small area. A Punisher can put out a lot of shots, but so can the rest of the army. Ogryn can take a ton of damage, and still slog forward to contest an objective or beat up support unit. If the squad is full strength, they're more than capable of tearing up Assault Terminators as well.

If you want allies, there's arguably stuff that can perform a similar role, but if you want Guard only, they do a great job as shock infantry or counter-attack.

What about Uriah Jacobs instead of a lord commissar? FNP ogryns sounds kindof fun.

I think various sister's Characters could do a lot for Ogryns, but only Ogryns on foot, as they allied characters can't ride in a Chimera. But yes, FNP, re-rolling to-hit Ogryns could be awfully good.

Biophysical wrote:Why do your think their close combat role won't have an effect?
Turn 1: Move the Chimera 18"

You are breaking away from the pack and revealing the threat inside. It will be difficult to protect that fragile side armour when pushing forward.

Biophysical wrote:Turn 2: Get out, move and shoot up some stuff (6-12" movement)

Once they are in the open your opponent will kill them off or just avoid them.

Biophysical wrote:Turn 3: Any number of things are probably in your 6+2D6" assault range now.

They are too slow to reliably get in to combat especially since they cannot assault the turn they disembark nor can they assault after their transport has been destroyed. Also relying on a dice roll makes them doubly unreliable, sure you could get lucky and make your assault range but you could get super unlucky and not only fail your assault but also lose models to Overwatch.

Biophysical wrote:Ogryns are infantry, which means they're one of the very few things in the Codex that can go out and contest an objective.

Good point.

Biophysical wrote:They're durable for the points, and compact enough to focus their power over a small area.

They can be very durable but i don't think they are any more durable than a Russ. Dedicated anti-tank can take out a Russ quickly but (almost) everything can hurt Ogryns as they trudge across the table top. Templates and Blasts have become a lot deadlier too.

Biophysical wrote:If the squad is full strength, they're more than capable of tearing up Assault Terminators as well.

IF they are at full strength and IF your opponent puts his Assault Terminators anywhere near them then, yes, they could kill the Assault Terminators but how likely is it that will happen in a competitive setting?

Biophysical wrote:If you want allies, there's arguably stuff that can perform a similar role, but if you want Guard only, they do a great job as shock infantry or counter-attack.

I agree that they do a job as shock troops or a counter-attack unit but you'd have to pay me to say they do a great job

As i've said, i love 'em fluff/fun wise and i do not disagree with you that they CAN be effective but they are not a competitive unit. In my opinion they are best suited as a Counter-Attack unit for Gun Line Guard or to support a Power Blob army (with which i have little experience but i'm under the impression they are no longer viable under 6th Edition and that even in 5th Ogryns were not exactly a must have).
I wish they were better because they are one of the reasons i started collecting Guard (before i knew how to play the game) but as is they cost too much and offer too little for me to justify taking them

FNP Ogryns:
Primaris Psyker with Endurance (if you get lucky) is a fun combo

Peace Out!
Jonny!

RubberJonny wrote:They are too slow to reliably get in to combat especially since they cannot assault the turn they disembark nor can they assault after their transport has been destroyed.

But speed doesnt' always matter. If you are charging the ogryn towards an objective, or towards the relic, then your opponent has the choice of abandoning VP, or taking ogryn to the face.

RubberJonny wrote:They can be very durable but i don't think they are any more durable than a Russ. Dedicated anti-tank can take out a Russ quickly but (almost) everything can hurt Ogryns as they trudge across the table top.

I'd be very careful about this statement.

A single meltagun can take out a russ in a single shot. There is nothing that can take out an entire squad of ogryn out in one shot (unless you're playing them in close order like an idiot). Ogryn and russes actually got more similar. Ogryn have 3 W. Russes have 3 HP. A single ogryn will die to things like lascannons only slightly more quickly than a single russ, but the former is much, much cheaper than the latter.

Ogryn are more vulnerable to small arms and mid-strength weapons, but they're also a lot tougher against dedicated anti-tank weapons. Furthermore, ogryn won't instantly fold in close combat. I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that, per-point, russes are tougher than ogryn over all.

I'll echo Alairos on the durability. Yes,, lots of things can hurt them, but very, very few things can hurt them in a points effective way. Small arms have a hard time wounding and heavy weapons don't put out enough shots. Cover is also pretty easy to get with small squads (compared to other Guard squad sizes). Think about the really scary firepower units in the game. Then do the math on how many Ogryn per turn they'll kill. It's almost never more than one. Sometimes with cover it's not even one. The other thing is, your opponent can't just hope you get bad luck (you know, when Terminators fail 3 out of 6 saves or something). They just have to eat through all 3 T5 wounds before dropping a guy.

Consider this: In objective games, they're great for marching forward, taking fire, and contesting an objective. In Kill Point games, they'll almost certainly claim more points than they give up.

IG players often think too much like IG players. Conventional IG wisdom is if a single unit of ogryns attacks an entire gunline it's easy to avoid and gun down the unit. The reality of most games is the IG player will still outgun the other side with ogryns in his army, and the other player will be nice enough to move his assault units closer to your lines making ogryns a good counter assault unit.

Ig v ig and ig v tau are not a common match up yet. If that's the case it will take a lot of skill to use ogryn. Against ig it's really simple: avoid demolishers, bushwhack units that head towards objectives, and hope the other guy didn't bring a manticore. Against tau ogryn need to contest an objective in area terrain, and if they start eating railguns to the face go to ground. It's not pretty, but it's less ugly than ig vehicles getting pounded with a railgun.

Biophysical wrote:

Turn 1: Move the Chimera 18" get shot some
Turn 2: Get out, move and shoot up some stuff (6-12" movement) get shot some more
Turn 3: Any number of things are probably in your 6+2D6" assault range now. get shot some more again

The fact they can't assault out of the transport really hurts them. Yeah, a lot of small arms fire wounds on 5s, but most of it also ignores their crappy armor.

I find the title of this threat pretty apt. You do have to design your whole list around this unit which is why I can't ever take them.

Would they be good in combination with something that causes pinning? If they roll up to their target, hop out of the Chimera, and you somehow manage to pin the target, i.e. snipers, killing their transport, etc., they could then avoid accurate enemy shooting for a turn. Then they could move, shoot, and charge (yes I know the enemy can still overwatch).

Griddlelol wrote:The fact they can't assault out of the transport really hurts them. Yeah, a lot of small arms fire wounds on 5s, but most of it also ignores their crappy armor.

But ogryn aren't all about assault anymore. Plus, things may ignore armor (but can't target them at all in a chimera, and they get cover in a wreck), but don't downplay the 5+ to wound, and certainly don't forget that they're 3 wounds apiece. A 5x bolter combat squad, assuming no cover, will put down only two wounds per turn of shooting against ogryn in the open. Put another way, it will take 14 TURNS of shooting to handle the ogryn. I'm pretty sure that they won't just be standing out in the open either.

As for mechanized transport, note that convenient part about a chimera holding 5 ogryns, and there being 5 fire points. 265 points gets you a punisher, except that it can also move 12", and it can also contest objectives, and it can also overwatch (you want to assault my chimera, eh?), and can fight decently in close combat (unlike a russ).

If you're focusing only on the ogryn's ability to get in a charge, then yeah, ogryn stink. The reason they don't, though, is because you're not looking broadly enough at their capabilities.

Well I have finally used an Ogryn squad and my anecdotal evidence backs out what Ailaros has posted (unsurprising that ).

I rocked up with 4 Ogryn and a LC w/ power axe in a 1850 point game on top of my usual blob/LR/Sentinwall force. It was an add on to use up points so wasn't really optimised too much. In idea circumstances I would have wanted 5-6 and a chimera but available models put paid to that.

Standard mission with the short edge deployment meant that I use them to trudge up the table and contest an objective (that was the plan anyway) rather than counter charge anything that got too close.

Between cover and T5 they got where I wanted in 3 turns taking out some SM bikers and a razorback on the way with ripper fire and taking about 3 wounds throughout the group from a mix of bolter, sniper, HB and Krak missile fire.

They then stalled on the last 12" through poor rolls for difficult terrain and charging. They still blasted away with ripper guns but never made it in to crack some skulls. [sad face]

I really liked them and as a first experiment declare it a partial success. The LC did nothing except shot his Bolt pistol once so that was a bit wasted, but would have been necessary if close combat was found wih anything half decent.

So in conclusion they are really quite robust and a dozen S5 shots is nothing to be sniffed at. I will definitely be using them again, possible without the LC?

If they had of made it into assault it would have been a game changer, and I am very glad they didnt!, with the sideways deployment it would have been different as well as they would have made it into my lines quicker, I wouldnt have run them through the cover as I didnt have that much ranged shooting to take them down with I would have run them where my first razorback went and you would have made your two charge rolls....

 Ailaros wrote:
For the price of 5 terminators, you get 6 ogryn.

Slight correction, 5x Ogryn = 5x Terminators + 10pts

This is presuming you're referring to Vanilla C:Space Marine termies