Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So like those FW entries that say "opponent's permission" now don't need opponent's permission anymore?

 Blackmoor wrote:
So who makes warhammer 40k? (It’s a rhetorical question) The answer is Games Workshop, not Forge World. So why have they never said that it is official just like all the rumors that said that they were a few months ago?

Again, it is not official until the Games Workshop part of Games Workshop makes it so.

Forge World IS Games Workshop, it's just a set of Games Workshop products published under a specific brand name just like all of your paints and models are sold under the Citadel brand name, and you'll find the rules for your Sisters of Battle army in White Dwarf magazine.

They are so bad that you always take 1-3 of them? If they are as bad as you are claiming do you always take 1-3 bad units? Do you take1-3 Ogryns? How about Rough Riders? I could go on but you get the point. If they were bad you would not always be taking them. Yes sometimes they do nothing, just like every unit in 40k. but that does not mean that they are a bad unit.

There are a lot more reasons to take something than just "it wins games". I take them because it's an awesome concept, a bunch of angry guys with plasma guns smashing out of the ground with heavy construction equipment and feeding enemy tanks (or special characters) into the wood chipper. My army started with the DKoK engineers (the first drill was a gift from my girlfriend, based entirely on how cool the model looked), and they've been a major part of it as long as I've been playing IG. And yes, I'd play Rough Riders when I finally get around to building and painting them, but Ogryn just aren't interesting to me.

Also, I never said drills were a bad unit, I said they weren't overpowered. They're good, but they don't break the game, just like Chimeras are good but don't break the game (and I see a lot of IG players taking Chimeras every game).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mortetvie wrote:
So like those FW entries that say "opponent's permission" now don't need opponent's permission anymore?

That hasn't existed in years. "Opponent's permission" is long gone, and now just a myth repeated by people who haven't bothered to learn the actual rules.

@Peregrine.

Congratulations. You fit the bill of those people I loathe because you can't read the entire posting.

Welcome to the world of Ignore because I can not longer deal with people who can't read completely.

 Peregrine wrote:
They're good, but they don't break the game, just like Chimeras are good but don't break the game (and I see a lot of IG players taking Chimeras every game).

Could that have something to do with one being an option in the IG Codex that every IG player should have and the other not?

As a TO for an upcoming event I feel I have some things to say. The biggest issue in my opinion is people do not know about Forge World compared to how they know about core GW products. I don't post on the forums that much but I figured this was a good thread to join. Below are some of my points.

1 - Definition of tournament and what you expect.
--- Most tournaments out there classify themselves as a "Grand Tournament", "Championship", "Gladiator" or use some other kind of moniker to explain what they think their event is about. For most events GT doesn't even apply to what GW made their events to be in the first place. TO's and players expect to express their desires of what they run or attend - for a competitive event, a hobby event or something else altogether. Some events make their own rules changes/faq's, some use comp systems and some just allow you to play games with your miniatures. Most events are very different and you need to choose what you want your event to be or what type of event you will attend or comment on forums about. Diversity is good here, since there will be something for everyone.

2 - Price and availability.
---You have to own the codex for the army you are playing when you show up at almost every tournament (bring your army and codex - almost the only Universal Rule for ALL tournaments), this includes the Forge World Rules for the units you are playing.
---You may want to buy the other army books to learn your opponent's possible armies (at $33 to $41.25 USD for a print version for a GW codex or $32.46 to $89.28 for a Forge World print version - totaling up to a $561 order from GW and an $839.05 order from Forge World if you want ALL the books. Yes, it is expensive either way and now with allies you could be required to have 2 GW books and 2 FW books!
--- Most stores out there are not top level retailers. Do you claim that players cannot have Metal or Finecast miniatures in a tournament because your FLGS is too small?
--- Should Sisters of Battle be banned from tournaments since only those who got a copy of White Dwarf have access?
--- Due to the facts above, I say price and availability really isn't an issue

3 - Rules Updates
--- 5th edition was great for Forge World's rules teams. They were very good at putting FAQ's out for almost every single unit in all of their books. Most of the older stuff was put into FREE PDFs ON THEIR SITE, including complete army lists and unit entries. It is not stealing if the most current rules are THERE FOR FREE, LEGALLY!!! Sure there are pirated scans of the print books out there but so are the main 40K books and codexes. Just do not allow pirated materials of ANY kind.
--- 6th edition has already seen the reclassification of most units to bring them in line with 6th and they have said there are expanding the FAQs for previous content as well as rewriting the older rules, Imperial Armour 1 for example.

4 - Balanced or Unbalanced
--- Don't really have to comment on this too much. There is little argument to be made for "balanced" lists due to the fact that codex books have been over 2 editions old and only updated by a couple pages of FAQs that usually delete old wargear. This is not a polished, balanced or competitive tournament game and no matter how much you claim your event is able to find the top player it doesn't mean anything unless you have everyone show up with the same codex and army list
--- Look how hard people try to rules lawyer little details or the crazy combinations that are completely legal in 6th edition due to allies. There are only a couple Forge World units that have a reputation for being nasty and none can compete with what 6th brings to the table. Most of the nastier units were toned down A LOT in recent updates.
--- Most Forge World collectors I know are not doing it for the rules gimmick, they are doing it for the models - so stop shutting them out of events!

5 - Official or Not?
--- Forge World has starting classifying which units are 40K legal, basically anything not a Gargantuan Creature or Superheavy should be 40K legal.

6 - But the other armies have more than mine...
--- Once again, we are dealing with a Miniatures company. Do we say you can't play with a model in the rules that has no model yet? Hello, Ork Battlewagon for about a decade or even the trusty Land Raider... Put together what you like, play what you like and since it is a cooperative hobby - play against someone else who has done the same. If you picked an army that has fewer choices (sorry Tyranids) then than is what you have to deal with.

7 - Blogs and Forums as your soapbox
--- Yes, you can reach many people and get input from others but this is not a complete audience for tournament organizers or attendees. Please remember that we are a small minority expressing our views here.
--- Many events out there now have vocal opponents who trash each other's systems, drag their name through the mud and try to make themselves smell sweet to boost their own agendas and purses. This has driven loads of gamers away and you are losing out on a ton of great opponents, modelers and painters, and comrades. It is fine that there is diversity in the players and the events. It is good that some events will Allow FW and some will Not Allow FW. Chill out, have a beer (or whatever beverage you prefer ) and play with your models however you like with who you want at what event you choose!

@RiTides

I think people are reading into what I am saying more deeply than I intended. Either that or we aren't understanding each other.

I am not saying fear or a lack of understanding as an insult.

For example, Blackmoor was criticizing the Saber Platforms being used in Comikaze but in the same post stated he didn't know what they did.

That is showing both a fear of the unknown and a lack of knowledge.

I don't think that is a put-down on him, it is natural to fear what you don't know. And there is nothing to be ashamed of in fearing something.

I openly and ardently feared 6th ed because on my first read through I thought it sucked. It took quite a bit of playing with it and now I love it! I was afraid of what I didn't know.

That is what I am saying is going on here. It's not a put down.

I am not trying to persuade anyone, either. We made a decision to run our events a certain way based on player feedback and in our first trial run, it went fine. Everyone who actually played against FW units didn't have an issue with it at all. The only opposition came from those who were speculating on what it was like.

So, sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to. I do honestly feel that the vast majority of people opposed to FW are opposed to it based on the reasons I listed, but you guys are right, I would be remiss to say EVERYONE was. That is silly as of course there will be people that feel opposed to FW for different reasons.

 Tironum wrote:
---You may want to buy the other army books to learn your opponent's possible armies (at $33 to $41.25 USD for a print version for a GW codex or $32.46 to $89.28 for a Forge World print version - totaling up to a $561 order from GW and an $839.05 order from Forge World if you want ALL the books. Yes, it is expensive either way and now with allies you could be required to have 2 GW books and 2 FW books!

To clarify a bit: almost all FW rules are in one of three books: IA:Apocalypse (second edition), IA:Apocalypse or IA:Aeronautica. The alternate army lists aren't, but other than that the vast majority of FW rules are either in one of those three books or available as a pdf update (once they finish moving them all to 6th and put them back in the download section) for a few units from the oldest books that haven't been reprinted in something newer. There might be one or two that slipped through the process, but I doubt you'd ever see them in a competitive tournament.

So, total cost of this: about $150 to get all relevant FW rules, including shipping.


(And of course that's assuming you buy rulebooks just to be familiar with units you aren't going to use. It's obviously illegal, but let's be honest, most people just pirate the books for all the armies, making the total cost for "know your enemy" $0 for both.)

 disdainful wrote:

2. Attendance. I think those who have come to my events would mostly agree that I run a pretty good show, and while opinions differ on things like mission organization and such, I've had some great success, despite the general gnashing of teeth out there. And as far as I'm concerned, a bigger event equals more fun, for everyone involved. I get to see more different, cool looking armies, and players get a variety of interesting challenges throughout the day. I'm leery of anything that is going to reduce the number of players who might come to my event. No matter how cool FW is, or how 'no big deal' it really is as far as gameplay and balance is concerned, the fact remains that there are a lot of guys who are going to be reluctant to commit their increasingly precious and limited hobby time to an event they have reservations about, unfounded or no. I'm in Blackmoor's camp here: Guys are not very likely to skip an event solely because FW is disallowed, while there is a very real possibility that at least some will skip an event where it is allowed. It won't matter how many times they read on the internet that FW is ok / not an issue / dissolves easily into the meta / no big deal / whatever, they're going to be reluctant to commit to an event because of it.

Okay, you've convinced me!

I hereby will not attend any tournament that doesn't allow Imperial Armor!

I guess I have to be the first to take a stand!

Reecius- You honestly think you can characterize everyone who disagrees with you as either fearful, or inexperienced / underinformed, without it sounding condescending?

You don't think, rather, that there might be some merit to their points, a legitimate reason to be concerned about allowing full on FW in events, that isn't covered by either of those characterizations?

That's disappointing man . After all I've typed trying to show examples of people you should respect / should mean something to you as a well-known TO and tourney player... that just really sucks. It's super condescending, and if you can't realize that... I guess you're not going to be able to get anything out of these discussions.

I actually have an open mind about this issue, and that's why I've taken on your language here (and yakface's the previous time this issue came up). I feel like this language is getting in the way of discussion. And it's very disappointing to me that, despite my trying really hard to point out to you why this is... you continue to use it

I don't really care. I played against the Dark Eldar/ Eldar deathstar combo in a doubles tourney recently (before the v1.1 FAQs) and the Eldar guy had the Wasp Assault Walkers and a Warp Hunter. My partner and I completely tabled them. FW is not a game breaker and the Warp Hunter is a little ridiculous for 115-125 pts IIRC.

The funny thing too is that the guy that won Comikaze was an IG player, which is coincidentally the only army that has a real counter to the 'dominant' Necron Air Force that everyone is so butthurt about. Nothing like 9 TL Lascannon shots coming at your face! Not to mention Hydras either. I mention this because he had the AA Lascannon platforms.

I don't see FW as a game breaker, as long as there are still strictly apoc units that can't be fielded in normal games of 40k.

It's not about whether you tabled someone who used FW, or they tabled you.

It's about the legitimate discussion of what it does to the game, both good, bad, or unknown... and unfortunately that is getting lost in the "We use it, it's not a problem- if you have a problem with it you're either inexperienced or afraid" kind of language . The other side will simply turn that around and call someone who wants to use it WAAC or whatever other broad, ill-fitting label they want to use. And then the valuable discussion, that we could be having on this issue, is lost because everyone gets their backs up due to the language being used, and nobody can find middle ground.

 yakface wrote:

 disdainful wrote:

2. Attendance. I think those who have come to my events would mostly agree that I run a pretty good show, and while opinions differ on things like mission organization and such, I've had some great success, despite the general gnashing of teeth out there. And as far as I'm concerned, a bigger event equals more fun, for everyone involved. I get to see more different, cool looking armies, and players get a variety of interesting challenges throughout the day. I'm leery of anything that is going to reduce the number of players who might come to my event. No matter how cool FW is, or how 'no big deal' it really is as far as gameplay and balance is concerned, the fact remains that there are a lot of guys who are going to be reluctant to commit their increasingly precious and limited hobby time to an event they have reservations about, unfounded or no. I'm in Blackmoor's camp here: Guys are not very likely to skip an event solely because FW is disallowed, while there is a very real possibility that at least some will skip an event where it is allowed. It won't matter how many times they read on the internet that FW is ok / not an issue / dissolves easily into the meta / no big deal / whatever, they're going to be reluctant to commit to an event because of it.

Okay, you've convinced me!

I hereby will not attend any tournament that doesn't allow Imperial Armor!

I guess I have to be the first to take a stand!

I am with Yak but the Gregs sparks 5 will beat him in 2013 at adepticon.

I disagree with the OP on one issue: I think the balance of FW units can be very, very mixed.
I see no issue with TO's picking and choosing.

Compare the Hades Breaching Drill to the Salamander Scout, for example. I own the latter, and was able to get away with playing it in my local gaming scene with no issue.

Why? For it's points, it's absolute garbage, compared to a closed-topped FW Chimera with an autocannon for 5 points more (not to mention, not taking up a FA slot.) If anything, it's on the side of unbalanced by a few points too many.

I absolute do agree that while FW can be used to create unique lists, many 'power gamers' look for the simple advantage of numbers; and occasionally the application of unique tactics. It's always a shame when a game becomes an issue of balance instead of a competition of minds.

 RiTides wrote:
Reecius- You honestly think you can characterize everyone who disagrees with you as either fearful, or inexperienced / underinformed, without it sounding condescending?

You don't think, rather, that there might be some merit to their points, a legitimate reason to be concerned about allowing full on FW in events, that isn't covered by either of those characterizations?

That's disappointing man . After all I've typed trying to show examples of people you should respect / should mean something to you as a well-known TO and tourney player... that just really sucks. It's super condescending, and if you can't realize that... I guess you're not going to be able to get anything out of these discussions.

I actually have an open mind about this issue, and that's why I've taken on your language here (and yakface's the previous time this issue came up). I feel like this language is getting in the way of discussion. And it's very disappointing to me that, despite my trying really hard to point out to you why this is... you continue to use it

I tried to explain my point. I do not mean to come across as condescending at all.

I have acknowledged that there are valid points to both sides of the arguments multiple times. I do think that the counter arguments though, (Over-powering units, too expensive, being able to "buy your wins," unfamiliarity with the rules) are arguments based in negative emotions. To me it's pretty apparent, sorry if that disappoints you. I am just being honest, as I said, not trying to be mean.

I think you saying you have an open mind is good, I do too. We tried to have FW in our events last year and there was enough resistance to it that we didn't do it. This year our attendees are for it and so we proceed. It's quite simple in our opinions.

If someone else doesn't want it in there events then by all means, go for it! We won't tell them they're wrong for it.

I also think that part of it is that we've had this discussion so many times. Yakface, who is normally so eloquent and patient, is now resorting to jokes! Haha, funny jokes, but hey, that's what it's come to. I think I have just accepted that some folks will like it and some won't, so I don't put as much effort into trying to argue my point. It's just kind of a, "this is how we're doing things" attitude at this point.

So again, not trying to be mean or to condescend. Just being frank.

I guess I haven't burned out on this topic. I feel like 6th was so new, that when it first came up we couldn't adequately understand the issue.

With a few major GTs down now, I felt like it might be a good time to have the discussion again.

But I can understand your being burned out talking about it, I know you dived in really strong on this issue when 6th was hitting. However, I just feel like with that approach you'll miss out on what will be an evolving level of FW acceptance, with a bit of a "take it or leave it" approach.

Either way, I appreciate the frank response (particularly that it is devoid of the language used earlier) and look forward to seeing FW in events, albiet not sure whether I want to eat the whole burrito in one go yet (i.e. unrestricted FW events ) or take it a bite or two at a time

Big issue with Forge World is availability and familiarity with the rules. You have to buy additional books to get these rules so most people aren't very familiar with what Forge World stuff does and have no practice playing against it.

Forge World models themselves are also limited availability.

Its like going to a Magic tournament and your opponent plays with these cards that are limited availability that you never seen before that you can't look up on any website like Starcity Games for free. Not very fair is it?

Other issue is that Imperium gets much better with wide access to even more units via allies while Xenos get the short end of the stick.

 Avariel wrote:
Big issue with Forge World is availability and familiarity with the rules. You have to buy additional books to get these rules so most people aren't very familiar with what Forge World stuff does and have no practice playing against it.

And you don't have to buy the codices to be familiar with them? It costs a lot more to buy every codex than to buy all of the necessary FW books, but we don't seriously propose dropping everything but C:SM from tournaments. Nor do we consider dropping less popular codex armies just because someone might not have a player in their area to test against.

Plus it's kind of amusing to hear this argument when most of the people making it probably have an illegal pdf of all the FW rulebooks on their computer, right next to all the illegal pdfs of the GW rulebooks.

Forge World models themselves are also limited availability.

No they aren't. Everything is in stock and ready to ship as soon as you order it.

Its like going to a Magic tournament and your opponent plays with these cards that are limited availability that you never seen before that you can't look up on any website like Starcity Games for free. Not very fair is it?

You're right, which is why tournaments should only allow the marine army from the starter set, so nobody ever has to play against rules that they haven't paid to see.

Other issue is that Imperium gets much better with wide access to even more units via allies while Xenos get the short end of the stick.

This has already been covered multiple times in this thread alone. Imperial armies get more units, but most of them aren't useful in competitive games. Xenos armies get fewer total units, but a higher percentage of them are useful in competitive games. End result: if there is a gap in useful options, it's much smaller than many people think.

@Peregrine
Big difference is you can flip through the GW codexs at your local game store or a friend is likely to have them. Forge world books are not carried by local game stores and not many people have them. Some people are strictly legit so your suggestion wouldn't work for them.

I've had delays in my Forgeworld orders a few times and you need to wait to get it from the UK. Standard Games Workshop stuff you can have today from the local store. So there is limited availability.

Xenos do get the short end of the stick in Forgeworld.

Good example is anti air which is pretty important right now with things like Cron Air being popular.

Imperial Guard get the Sabre Twin Linked Las cannon Platform Skyfire interceptor with 2 wounds each toughness 7 and you get 3 of them for the cost of a basic Leman Russ with no upgrades. The icing on the cake is you can buy ablative wounds for the cost of a grot.

Eldar have to rely on the Firestorm which also has skyfire and interceptor but is armed with strength 6 scatter laser which is laughable vs av 12 fliers. Its an av12/12/10 grav tank with 3 hull points and costs 30 points more then the above Sabre platforms.

 Avariel wrote:
Big difference is you can flip through the GW codexs at your local game store or a friend is likely to have them. Forge world books are not carried by local game stores and not many people have them. Some people are strictly legit so your suggestion wouldn't work for them.

Sure, but "nobody I know has them" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once FW becomes more common in tournaments more people will buy the books, and then more people will be able to just flip through them.

And I'm not suggesting that anyone pirate the books (which would be against forum rules), I'm just stating the obvious fact that most people (including, I'm sure, many of the people saying "FW is too expensive") pirate rulebooks. Cost would be a much more compelling argument if everyone only had the books they legally bought, but in the real world the number of people who don't have FW rules available is much smaller than the "too expensive" side claims.

I've had delays in my Forgeworld orders a few times and you need to wait to get it from the UK. Standard Games Workshop stuff you can have today from the local store. So there is limited availability.

Longer shipping time is not the same thing as limited availability. There's no shortage of FW models, you just have to make sure you order far enough in advance of the tournament to get everything finished. While it must be a bit annoying for the few players who wait until the last minute to build their armies, there is no realistic obstacle for most people in getting FW models.

Also, I don't know where you shop, but no store in my area has a complete stock of every GW item. There's a huge list of stuff that you'll have to special order and wait a week to get (or buy online just like you buy online from FW).

Eldar have to rely on the Firestorm which also has skyfire and interceptor but is armed with strength 6 scatter laser which is laughable vs av 12 fliers. Its an av12/12/10 grav tank with 3 hull points and costs 30 points more then the above Sabre platforms.

Don't forget that it's also a transport, it's a mobile unit compared to the static Sabre platforms, it's AV 12 so bolters and other light weapons can't even shoot at it, and Eldar also gain (very good) flyers from FW to supplement the Firestorm in the AA role. And they also gain the awesome Hornet, Wasp walkers and Warp Hunter, all of which are very good units that many Eldar players love. You can't just look at two units, conclude that A is better than B, and assume that this means that xenos armies get nothing.

And there's also the fact that IG already have access to good AA units (Hydras, Vendettas, FW flyers, etc), so adding one more AA unit, even a very good one, could arguably have less impact on the IG army than finally giving Eldar and Tau fast attack options that don't suck.

As a 10+ year tournament orginizer I will say that allowing Forgeworld never broken the tournaments.

As a player I am more likely to spend my time going to events that allow the use of forgeworld rules(Just played in a GT in Az with Elysians 13 hour drive)than those that don't.

As a consumer I now live in an area where there are no stores so I have to order everything and it is all avalabial in the 21st century. You just have to plan for things.

I used to carry every book (Forgeworld included) to all events and games but now that a game is at least a 3.5 hour drive I don't carry them, however I have PDF of everything on my iPad so I always have all rules with me. That is my choice and not a requirement for the game. You will find that probably 75-80 percent of everyone who plays in events is only fimiliar with their own rules. (At least in my over 15 years of playing and running events)

People who are already familiar with every rule for every unit in every codex will have no problem becoming familiar with all the FW units as well.

For people who are not familiar with every unit from every codex, FW units are no different to regular units.

In either case, there is no reason to disallow them.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
How many unique units does FW offer to marines and IG?

How many unique units does FW offer to Tyranids?

My problem is opening up a new range that blatantly favors some armies and fully neglects others. (Assuming tournament context is non-super heavy, non-gargantuan FW units)

But doesn't GW already favor marines themselves?

 blood lance wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
How many unique units does FW offer to marines and IG?

How many unique units does FW offer to Tyranids?

My problem is opening up a new range that blatantly favors some armies and fully neglects others. (Assuming tournament context is non-super heavy, non-gargantuan FW units)

But doesn't GW already favor marines themselves?

More importantly, is an imbalance in available units a valid reason for curtailing the use of FW? If codex A has ten units, and codex B has twenty units, is that fact alone a good enough reason to ban codex B?

I've seen some tournaments ban the use of newly released codexes if the release coincided very closely with the tournament. Ostensibly because the new rules would not be known by everyone in time for the tournament. And no time to practice etc..

The meta changes every time something new is released, be it a new codex, a WD supplement, etc..

Should they be banned as well? I mean if you suddenly need to plonk down a lot of cash to buy squadrons of new unit X to be competitive it's obviously the same as having to shell out cash for a FW unit. The people who can't afford to shift with the meta every time can't in either case.

Yet I don't think anyone was opposed to using the new WD-released flyers in tournaments when they were just released.

 Shandara wrote:
I've seen some tournaments ban the use of newly released codexes if the release coincided very closely with the tournament. Ostensibly because the new rules would not be known by everyone in time for the tournament. And no time to practice etc..

More likely because army lists were due either near or before the release date.

As someone said earlier in this thread regarding not knowing all the GW codex's, its your choice not to know them, same with FW units, a quick google search and you can have all the info you need on a particular unit that is being used and in the age of the smart phone roaming ipad etc, there simply is no excuse not to know or look for a FW unit.
Not knowing what a unit does again is no excuse, otherwise ban all new codex's for at least a year in tourny's, just so people can learn what they do right?

Now for my actual opinion on the matter, yes allow them, saying no to a FW unit that is game legal is the same as saying "that paladin unit.. i dont know what it does, so you cant use it". FW is GW and FW says there units are 40k legal.. so they are.

For me, FW units add to 40K. God forbid armies shouldn't confirm to internet wisdom about "tiers" and what is and isn't OP. A lot of the arguments I hear against FW sound like nothing more than 'I fear change'.

If you don't know what a unit does, you will after you play it. Adapt or die, dudes.

I am against adding Forgeworld models to the tournament scene....for now.

Right now, FW is a barrier to some players (not all of them) either because they've never had it/seen it/could afford it. Because of either of those three reasons and perhaps more in a tournament setting-

Relatively casual players and those who do not allocate sufficient income into the Hobby are at a disadvantage- ultimately this causes frustration and confusion if they have to play against several units that are explained to them as coming from limited run releases, higher priced models from exclusive distributors, or any other reason that may make the event completely joyless for them. Having to learn new rules on the fly could be difficult in a very fluid situation, and depending on performance of such models or simply their appearance on the table, could alter the way that player plays against an army with Forgeworld in it and perhaps change their opinion.

The worst case scenario is that they leave thinking that using FW is creating a serious advantage for others and the more common scenario of the disaffected is probably leaving a tournament slightly unsettled and uncomfortable that FW was allowed in the first place.

It should be the challenge of those who want to add FW to Tournaments to convince those who do not allow it to allow it and for those who do not accept FW into tournaments to show that FW is possible to include.

Until then, you will not get the dream realized. Simply bull-rushing FW into the meta without building support for it will cause problems and more than likely alienate enough people to continue having it precluded from tournament play.

I agree, WarOne.

Posting with a bit of a cooler head today... my point last night was simply trying to say that you can't brush off people's concerns.

It's great that Reecius' tournament attendees voted in favor of FW, and enjoyed using it. But many folks would not do so (is there a poll in the poll section on this?). Thus, if a tourney is trying to cater to what players want to see, it makes sense for them to be cautious about full, no restrictions FW-inclusion.

It just makes sense. It doesn't mean all the concerns are not going to change, but the fact that a LOT of people have them means (imo) that there's something to them- at least from the TO's point of view, who is trying to put together an event that the greatest number of people will enjoy.

Obviously, TOs have to make some tough calls, and how much FW to allow is one of them. I think it's great that folks run events in different ways, and as MVBrandt posted quite eloquently on the first page, it's just as bad to pressure all TOs to exclude FW as it is to pressure them to allow it.

Cheers to Reecius and company for "pushing the envelope" a bit on this. However, I'm glad that most events I'm thinking of attending are taking a more measured approach, as I don't think most communities are ready for full FW inclusion with no strings attached (and may never be- depending on the direction GW takes with the Horus Heresy items, as MVBrandt also said).

It's also worth noting (also described on page 1!) that the reason this argument came up so strongly a few months ago was the rumor of FW being sold in stores and being made legal / etc. When that didn't happen... it makes sense that the discussion took a step back, since we're all going off of what GW indicates here, and they didn't change their status quo of making FW "by opponent's permission only" or make it more widely available. They could easily address all the issues here, and they haven't... and that's why we're still having this discussion.

I don't think I will spend all the money to attend a big event that has Forgeworld and there are lots of events to choose from now. Forgeworld mostly helps armies that don't really need any like IG and SM in my opinion. If this is what is needed to deal with flyers then that just sounds like a bad excuse to justify it to me.