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 RiTides wrote:
I agree, WarOne.

Posting with a bit of a cooler head today... my point last night was simply trying to say that you can't brush off people's concerns.

It's great that Reecius' tournament attendees voted in favor of FW, and enjoyed using it. But many folks would not do so (is there a poll in the poll section on this?). Thus, if a tourney is trying to cater to what players want to see, it makes sense for them to be cautious about full, no restrictions FW-inclusion.

It just makes sense. It doesn't mean all the concerns are not going to change, but the fact that a LOT of people have them means (imo) that there's something to them- at least from the TO's point of view, who is trying to put together an event that the greatest number of people will enjoy.

Obviously, TOs have to make some tough calls, and how much FW to allow is one of them. I think it's great that folks run events in different ways, and as MVBrandt posted quite eloquently on the first page, it's just as bad to pressure all TOs to exclude FW as it is to pressure them to allow it.

Cheers to Reecius and company for "pushing the envelope" a bit on this. However, I'm glad that most events I'm thinking of attending are taking a more measured approach, as I don't think most communities are ready for full FW inclusion with no strings attached (and may never be- depending on the direction GW takes with the Horus Heresy items, as MVBrandt also said).

It's also worth noting (also described on page 1!) that the reason this argument came up so strongly a few months ago was the rumor of FW being sold in stores and being made legal / etc. When that didn't happen... it makes sense that the discussion took a step back, since we're all going off of what GW indicates here, and they didn't change their status quo of making FW "by opponent's permission only" or make it more widely available. They could easily address all the issues here, and they haven't... and that's why we're still having this discussion.

FW isnt "by opponent's permission only", it game legal as stated in many many FW books, it merly states its polite to inform your oponent what you are useing and to let him look at the rules should he need to, I say again, not allowing FW is the same as not allowing certain units from certain dex's you dont like.

Tourny's on the other hand, well thats down to the organisor

It is nowhere near the same...

It is still opponent's permission, just events who allow it, the TO has basically given permission for people to play, and agreeing to show up and play means you accept.

This is all a moot point until the US distribution rumor ever comes true or not. As long as the only way to get these models is a credit card which can be used internationaly, it is exlusionary. If any of the US distribution becomes reality, then it becomes a pissing match over META games.

So for right now, I like that there is both and neither is the one true 'correct' 40k.

 RiTides wrote:
It is nowhere near the same...

one company makes the rules all the rules (GW) of which FW is part of said company (GW) and its been stated by the company that the units with the "40k" sticker are useable in normal games, so you tell me how its not the same as refusing to allow someone the use of a unit from a codex and the use of a unit from... there codex, becuase thats what FW does (not all the time admitedly), it adds unts to the codex, case in point, Ork junka, slap a shokk attack gun to it and take it as a transport for your big mek, or select it as an elite choice, you denying me one of my legitimate elite choices is the same as me saying you cannot use a ... doom sythe or something.

But as I said before, FW and tourny's is totally diferent (across all areas) as it all comes down the the organisor.

Formosa, it's not the same in practice because people have this weird stigma against Forge World. However that is the true intent of Games Workshop. Forge World models are supposed to be allowed in every game with no questions asked to their validity, only to their function. The community just decides to say "screw you guys who make the rules, we're not going to allow it" most of the time.

nkelsch wrote:
It is still opponent's permission, just events who allow it, the TO has basically given permission for people to play, and agreeing to show up and play means you accept.

This is all a moot point until the US distribution rumor ever comes true or not. As long as the only way to get these models is a credit card which can be used internationaly, it is exlusionary. If any of the US distribution becomes reality, then it becomes a pissing match over META games.

So for right now, I like that there is both and neither is the one true 'correct' 40k.

I think I agree with this 100%. I know my entire OP was about why FW shouldn't be allowed at all; however if US distribution ever comes to light my opinion will almost certainly change over night. I would hope local RTT TOs would ease into it in that case but I wouldn't be opposed to almost every major GT allowing it. I would still like to see some events run Core tournaments because I feel the game is more pure, best word I could think of, when played in that form.

I am personally fine with Forgeworld being used, though I do feel a couple of units are hideously underpriced for what they do. That said, I really think that FW creates balance issues in the game and does not really solve any, contrary to the peanut gallery contention. My thoughts on some of the basic issues:

1) Availability- While the models and rules are certainly available online, realistically you need to invest almost half a grand just to have access to the books with the units most likely to be seen. Furthermore, even if you are living in a major metropolitan area, getting a FW model is a lengthy pain in the ass compared to just walking into a GW and picking out a couple stock models off the shelf.

2) Balance across Books- Look, the game has been severely slanted towards Imperial armies for a decade now and its gotten steadily worse, barring the occasional anomoly (Crons). FW does amplify this issue a lot, however, with the ludicrous amount of Skyfire/Interceptor and super special enhanced/undercosted vehicles that seem to pop up in what are already the strongest of armies. Tau got a ton of units, but really nothing that jumps out at a player like Sabres, Cestus, or the Dread Pods. As a dedicated Xenos player, I struggle to even come up with anything worth playing in most of the Xenos FW units. Again, not that the problem is unique to FW, it just gets amplified a lot, similar to how the allies chart made the already stronger armies even better off.

3) Fear of Flyers- Here is where I think the core issue is with Reece. I consider Reece a friend and respect him a lot, but I think he is overly paranoid about flyers in the game. I will even take it a step further and say that the BAO scenario inadvertantly favors flyers more than the standard book scenarios and that were he running scenarios more closely aligned to the book his playtest results would not be scaring the hell out of him in regards to the Cylon Death Fleet army list. I think its pretty telling that with or without FW, no one has won an event since 6th began with a flyer heavy list of any kind, despite all the irrational fear placed on them.

I feel that the game designers want flyers to be strong (they frankly should be, from a realism standpoint) but not game busting. Any army (except the poor nids) can ally the best parts of guard air defense on the cheap and most armies can spam multishot S6-7ish weapons on the cheap, as well. People just want an easy way out and FW gives them that with cheap twin linked Skyfire/Interceptor artilery and hydra guns with the interceptor rule added. Frankly, its frustrating because if I want to take just a couple flyers, some skimmers, or god forbid some jetbikes I am basically handicapping myself in formats that allow forgeworld. In essence, with this much flyer hate you HAVE to spam them to get use out of them. This leaves entire army builds out in the cold, just to punish one or two builds that have not actually won anything yet.


---anyhow,
All that said, I am for embracing FW into the game because nothing is going to slow the tide of IG SW love that the designers (and most organizers) have, so rather than fight the inevitable people should just be glad to see something other than minor tweaks of Kopachs list at every top table for the next couple years. For my part, I will just go back to playing a crappy nid list when I am screwing around and busting out the space monkeys when I am semi-serious.

 Davylove21 wrote:
For me, FW units add to 40K. God forbid armies shouldn't confirm to internet wisdom about "tiers" and what is and isn't OP. A lot of the arguments I hear against FW sound like nothing more than 'I fear change'.

If you don't know what a unit does, you will after you play it. Adapt or die, dudes.

#1, Army tiers is a 5th edition concept.

#2. I paid $90 to play at Comilazi Con ($60 for the event, and $15 a day for parking) and I do not want to pay that kind of money to "know what a unit does...after you play it.".

Avariel wrote:Big issue with Forge World is availability and familiarity with the rules. You have to buy additional books to get these rules so most people aren't very familiar with what Forge World stuff does and have no practice playing against it.

There are no necron players in my regular gaming group. We have no practice playing against them, therefore, they should not be allowed.

Forge World models themselves are also limited availability.

Have you not heard of the internet. It's this series of tubes that connect people's computers together. Sometimes, it lets you buy things from remote far away places, like Nottingham. Here, Click Me, find out for yourself.

Its like going to a Magic tournament and your opponent plays with these cards that are limited availability that you never seen before that you can't look up on any website like Starcity Games for free. Not very fair is it?

I've played magic since 1993 and have never heard of a card with limited availability. Unless you mean Mana Crypt, where you had to buy some crappy paperback to get it. I'm not at all sure what the point of this comparison is.

Other issue is that Imperium gets much better with wide access to even more units via allies while Xenos get the short end of the stick.

You really haven't seen the FW stuff have you. I mean, Orks get mid-weight armour in big trakks, instead of having to pick between AV10 trukks an AV14 battlewagons. They get some solid gun options too. Eldar actually get flyers, usable viper things, wraithseers, tau get a flyer and tetras. I'm sure anyone playing those races would be more than happy to let the imperials have whatever in order to get them. Chaos get a drop pod equivalent, a handful of cool characters. Slaanesh can actually field a dreadnought with sonic weapons.

Blackmoor wrote:#2. I paid $90 to play at Comilazi Con ($60 for the event, and $15 a day for parking) and I do not want to pay that kind of money to "know what a unit does, you will after you play it.".

I don't buy that. Well, I buy that you paid to play at Comikazi, but I doubt someone as experienced you were ever told "you will after you play it." - I've not seen an event where they don't require you to have the rules for whatever you bring on-hand. How many years have you been playing? You can't ask your opponent to read what it does and get on with your plans?

I know I can. I've played plenty of stuff from GW codexes that I hadn't played before. What's a Njals? What's a Triarch stalker? Really, that's difficult? How to address anything: "What's it's toughness/AV, what's it's save, how does it move?" Now it dies like anything else.

This isn't a complicated game. Really, it's not. I've yet to see anything from ForgeWorld that's as broken, for its cost, as a unit of Long Fangs. I hate the paranoia that goes along with these debates. OMG, someone might use a unit I haven't seen. (happens to me all the time with codex units). Someone might win a game because of it. (Someone might win a game without it too). Someone might not access to it. (Join the 21st century). My game store can't sell them (They can't sell direct order models from GW either. I can't count how many times I've gone into a GW store only to be told that what I wanted is now Direct Sale only). It's like a bunch of old womens worried about all the bad things that might happen in the world. My wife's grandmother is worried that it might rain when we ride a motorcycle... I remember when Special Characters weren't allowed at events too, for all of these same reasons.

You can keep making up paranoid excuses to keep FW stuff out of events all day. Or just man up and allow them for the only reason that matters - they're cool.

 Phazael wrote:

2) Balance across Books- Look, the game has been severely slanted towards Imperial armies for a decade now and its gotten steadily worse, barring the occasional anomoly (Crons). FW does amplify this issue a lot, however, with the ludicrous amount of Skyfire/Interceptor and super special enhanced/undercosted vehicles that seem to pop up in what are already the strongest of armies. Tau got a ton of units, but really nothing that jumps out at a player like Sabres, Cestus, or the Dread Pods. As a dedicated Xenos player, I struggle to even come up with anything worth playing in most of the Xenos FW units. Again, not that the problem is unique to FW, it just gets amplified a lot, similar to how the allies chart made the already stronger armies even better off.

What?

Trifalcon skimmer spam certainly wasn't an Imperial army, neither was Fish of Fury, Nobbikers or Lash-spam.

Do you have any examples of these "undercosted/super special enhanced" vehicles?

Of the Space Marine Codices with access to the Dreadnought Drop Pod, the only one with a dedicated CC Dreadnought is the Vanilla Codex, with it's Ironclad Dreadnought. Big whoop. The Cestus is a very expensive flyer. It has less weapons than a Storm Raven but is harder to shoot down. Why is that so OP?

As for "struggling to come up with anything worth playing", look better. Both Eldar and Tau get quite a bit of worthwhile additions, with Orks getting a few as well. The shafted factions are Dark Eldar and Necrons, and the Necron units aren't actually bad. Meanwhile, Sisters of Battle get absolutely nothing, but I guess they don't count since they're an Imperial army, eh?

 Formosa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
It is nowhere near the same...

one company makes the rules all the rules (GW) of which FW is part of said company (GW) and its been stated by the company that the units with the "40k" sticker are useable in normal games, so you tell me how its not the same as refusing to allow someone the use of a unit from a codex and the use of a unit from... there codex, becuase thats what FW does (not all the time admitedly), it adds unts to the codex, case in point, Ork junka, slap a shokk attack gun to it and take it as a transport for your big mek, or select it as an elite choice, you denying me one of my legitimate elite choices is the same as me saying you cannot use a ... doom sythe or something.

But as I said before, FW and tourny's is totally diferent (across all areas) as it all comes down the the organisor.

That is all very well good - just make sure to mention that to the TO.

Well you do not have it at your AdeptiCon Championships,

Sort of, we do not have it in the AdeptiCon Championship format as it existed last year. Up until a few years ago we did allowed it in the Championship.

We had the Circuit Championship in 2009 which did not allow Forgeworld and the regular Championship event did allow Forgeworld. In 2010 the GT Tourney Circuit went away and we combined both the invitational and championship events. At that time we decided given the 40k TT and Gladiator allowed FW, we would keep the restriction in place for the combined Championship. I still remember that debate, discussion, and compromise.

So more years than not we have allowed FW at AdeptiCon in a variety of events, with a variety of restrictions. I think, after much arm twisting and teeth gnashing we have settled into now counting each Forgeworld unit as “unique” for army selection. Which in my opinion mitigates the main problem for Codex or Forgeworld units …. spamming hyper-efficient units.

Chicago always had more acceptance of Forge World than other parts of the country and I believe in part due to the GW Bunker selling forge world.

I’m sure that is part of it. However, I think it had more to do with the fact that the key folks involved with organizing events in Chicago and Downstate in the early 2000’s were Forgeworld fans and the demand/feedback from our attendees over the years. We supported FW prior to the bunker selling it for instance if I recall correctly. Additionally, you had the folks that organized the Siegeworld event in Saint Louis. So we had a lot of acceptance in the region. We had the same discussions then, I’ve had this same discussion countless times over the past 10+ years, and it never changes.

I have had Forgeworld and Games Workshop employees ask me what I thought now that the Forgeworld models are “official” for use in 6th edition 40k. It is a hard job to break it to them that they are not official and it comes as quite the surprise. : ) Because, you know Forgeworld, that company that is tackling and evidently trusted to write what amounts to the holy grail of GW IP the Horus Hersey, but evidently yet is not capable of being sanctioned by Games Workshop for normal games of 40k. Really?? Have you guys read any Alan Bligh’s stuff? IA9 and IA10 are hands down the best 40k material written since the Rogue Trader days. For anyone that has yet to read it your 40K universe is just a little bit sadder. Turn that frown upside down and immerse yourself into what Forgeworld is doing… you will be a happy hobbyist for it… trust me.

But I think we are getting to part of the issue. There is a segment of the 40k community that wants to account for all possibilities. They like the known and the predictable. It’s the same folks that have issues with all the random and unpredictable changes in the new edition. I’m going to show up with my lean and mean hyper-efficient army build. I know to expect these additional hyper efficient army builds at this event. I’ve thought about and play tested against these top lists. I see that these dozen players are going to be in attendance and I have an understanding of what these guys are toting around these days to events. I will have downloaded the painting and other soft score matrix so I understand what my army and play should score. I have downloaded the FAQ or even better asked questions directly to the TO to confirm in black and white some shady area of grey my army list plans to incorporate. Pile on the trend for events now to publish the missions in advance so I can tailor my list and play testing to account for the missions formats posted. Plus last but not least. I also know what to expect from terrain as I have done my homework on what this event has done for a terrain setup and have accounted for that in my army list creation so I don’t get taken by surprise and lose 2 games. In short I have attempted to control ALL possible variables I have at my disposal prior to round 1, rolling dice, and beating face. I get it, I’ve done it. It’s ok and there is nothing wrong with it. . But there is so much more to this hobby and events then the above.

Adding Forgeworld to the mix creates at a minimum uncertainty to this mindset or at most creates a lot more front end work for these individuals. What I got to know X times more units and spend X more dollars just to account for it?? If I don’t I might face a unit I don’t know or maybe I will get caught by surprise then the unthinkable may happen … I might lose. Forgeworld increases the complexity of what is possible no doubt and favors a player that maybe "plans" less but is quick on their feet. The sort that can adapt and process new information, and is capable of quickly identifying threats for themselves. Players that can audible a battle plan verse running a set of scripted “tactics.” You do not have the time when I hand you my rules for unit X to search the internet and have it tell you what to do or the time to ask controversial 40k blog personalities their expert opinion on how to handle it. You need to be able to read the rules, and in short order assess the impact of that unit on the game and your game plan for yourself. Warfare isn’t always predictable neither should Wargaming. Forgeworld creates model and army diversity. That is a good thing in my mind given the sterile environment 5th edition had become.

A quick note on Forgeworld rules. At least Forgeworld will take rule feedback and support their models with rule updates in many cases for free. Why they don’t always get it right they certainly more often then not make the needed adjustments in future updates. As for Heavy Artillery .. really isn’t the issue that 6th edition changes the classification for artillery to infantry for LOS? This is exactly a Forgeworld problem how? But I am sure they will address it given IA1 is getting redone and they will get an opportunity to revise all the Imperial units so hopefully they tackle the Hades, Hvy Artillery, etc..

The short of it is this will never be solved to the satisfaction of everyone. I am certain that AdeptiCon will continue to support event formats that account for both and I am sure this topic will come up again in a few months and we will discuss it all over again.

@Walrus- All three of those xenos builds happened nearly a decade ago. Nob Bikers is the only one that won more than a couple major events and that was during a very narrow window of time. That ended decisively five years ago about the same time guard stopped sucking.

As for cheap or OP alternatives in FW form, you can't be serious. Show me anything that lets a seige dred have a 83% chance to assault untouched anywhere on the table. Show me another AV13 flyer in the game aside from the Cestus, let alone with an invulnerable save. Sabres would be a bargain even if they cost double what a standard Heavy Weapons team cost (they cost marginally more). Show me another 4 HP flier in the game, let alone with the firepower and transport capacity of a Storm Eagle. Where is there a xenos entry like the FW Hydras or Chimeras that just add Interceptor or Autocannon turret options for a pitance of points? There is a ton of junk in the imperial entries, too, but don't sit there and claim nothing is undercosted and expect me to take you seriously. Even Sisters got the Avenger, which would be amazing in any xenos list, but is merely meh in an army that can ally IG as battle brothers and take Vendettas.

Meanwhile, Xenos get a couple of overpriced/under powered flyers, trucks with death rollas, and a million crisis suit varients that no one really cares about. Oh, I guess my eldar also got the psychic Wraithlord. Again, not saying that FW changes the IG SW dominance dynamic, but it (like allies rules) does greatly reinforce it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Muhwe re Artilery-
The real issue is that artilery only exists in abundance in the FW book and is mostly confined to one or two armies. It also has a tendancy in the FW books to supplant main rulebook units in both power and cost effectiveness. Finally, the cost of additional crewmen does not really reflect the new reality that you are essentially adding T7 wounds to units that can gain all of the defensive bennefits of standard infantry. The Sabre is just the most egregious example, but there are other artilery pieces that do the same thing, like the Hydra Platforms that come with Interceptor and are actually harder to eliminate than a normal Hydra, while costing less. If Sabres followed the same rules for normal heavy weapons teams (ie 2w T3 infantry models), they would probably be less contentious at their cost.

@Phazael

Am I mistaken or don't codex Orcs and Eldar have access to alot of artillery? We just never saw many codex artillery units in 5th edition because they well sucked in comparsion to other more efficient choices?

My point was all those FW models existed prior to 6th edition and the changes to the artillery rules which have made all artillery significantly better.

Forgeworld is left having to adapt the models they have to the current rules. I am sure they will be adjusted with IA1 redux around the corner. So I wouldn't be going out and be buying tons and tons of Forgeworld Hvy Artillery thinking it's going to be the end all be all for years to come. : )

I am not inherently opposed to Forgeworld in tournaments, but the rules need to be seriously cleaned up and organized. In the current state, you have rules scattered across a dozen books and FAQs, with some printing replacing earlier versions. There is serious ambiguity, especially when updating for 6th.

Forgeworld really needs to put up a tournament PDF that clearly lists all tournament legal models, references the books and page number in which they appear and centralizes any applicable FAQ updates.

Oh I agree. My point is simply that FW just aggravates existing trends, but does not really change them. As far as Artilery, the guard only ever had weapon teams really. Eldar had a couple units, but all were limited in range and vastly inferior to the other heavy options in the book (and still are). The Orc ones were hit and miss, being used occasionally in Green tide lists as durable transport poppers. Eldar got the skyfire piece with S6 shots, which is descent at dropping AV10-11 flyers (ie other xenos) but does nothing against the far more effective AV12 imperial flyers out there, at least not at the cost in points and HS slot. Honestly, guided Warp Spiders and War Walkers are the most efficient anti air from my observations, and that is a sad state of affairs. If the Pheonix was cheaper or had a little more firepower I could see it being a solid choice, but it just gets punked by Hydras too easily because so much of its defense is tied into its jink save.

With IG, they got Interceptor in a troop slot on an artilery piece in an army that can abuse orders and the ADL to make them immortal. This in an army that already had the edge in air defense before FW ever entered the equation is why people have taken exception to the Saber, among other units.

Another problem with Forgeworld is finding the units you want to use as they spread across many many books.

army builder lists the location of the current rules of the forgeworld stuff.

I am starting an article on forgeworld 40k units rating and comparing them to codex choices.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As for "struggling to come up with anything worth playing", look better. Both Eldar and Tau get quite a bit of worthwhile additions, with Orks getting a few as well. The shafted factions are Dark Eldar and Necrons, and the Necron units aren't actually bad. Meanwhile, Sisters of Battle get absolutely nothing, but I guess they don't count since they're an Imperial army, eh?

It's painfully telling that people don't even remember to include Tyranids on the list of shafted factions.

muwhe wrote:
Adding Forgeworld to the mix creates at a minimum uncertainty to this mindset or at most creates a lot more front end work for these individuals. What I got to know X times more units and spend X more dollars just to account for it?? If I don’t I might face a unit I don’t know or maybe I will get caught by surprise then the unthinkable may happen … I might lose. Forgeworld increases the complexity of what is possible no doubt and favors a player that maybe "plans" less but is quick on their feet. The sort that can adapt and process new information, and is capable of quickly identifying threats for themselves. Players that can audible a battle plan verse running a set of scripted “tactics.” You do not have the time when I hand you my rules for unit X to search the internet and have it tell you what to do or the time to ask controversial 40k blog personalities their expert opinion on how to handle it. You need to be able to read the rules, and in short order assess the impact of that unit on the game and your game plan for yourself. Warfare isn’t always predictable neither should Wargaming. Forgeworld creates model and army diversity. That is a good thing in my mind given the sterile environment 5th edition had become.

A quick note on Forgeworld rules. At least Forgeworld will take rule feedback and support their models with rule updates in many cases for free. Why they don’t always get it right they certainly more often then not make the needed adjustments in future updates. As for Heavy Artillery .. really isn’t the issue that 6th edition changes the classification for artillery to infantry for LOS? This is exactly a Forgeworld problem how? But I am sure they will address it given IA1 is getting redone and they will get an opportunity to revise all the Imperial units so hopefully they tackle the Hades, Hvy Artillery, etc..

It's interesting that you stick the "heavy artillery" disclaimer in immediately after that discussion on uncertainty.

I do like to know what I'm likely to encounter. The reason is more a question of fun, rather than never losing. Playing against a list, such as that previously described in the thread, that brings 40+ T7 wounds has the potential to be incredibly unfun, unless you've accounted for it beforehand. And it's a FW problem because they make the heavy artillery available; without FW units, you're looking at what - grots w/big gunz, and Eldar Support platforms? They already had the option of reclassifying (we've got an FAQ for those books already where they added skyfire & interceptor), and haven't done so. Yes, they are perhaps more likely to do so than GW is with a broken codex unit.

I'd like to see all FW-allowing events adopt the "sideboard" concept; I wouldn't mind if non-FW tournaments shifted in that direction, too. Let people swap out some small (fixed) part of their army after seeing the core of their opponent's force, while their opponent is doing the same.

@Janthkin

You have never had any issues adapting on the fly over the years. If you could play Como and his counts as "my pretty pony" list .. you should be well prepared for anything FW throws at you .. : )

muwhe wrote:
@Janthkin

You have never had any issues adapting on the fly over the years. If you could play Como and his counts as "my pretty pony" list .. you should be well prepared for anything FW throws at you .. : )

Dose Como use FW units. if not there no different then playing a "non-pretty pony" army of the same codex. Not the same as FW units that have different rules then the codex, and likey never seen.

muwhe wrote:
@Janthkin

You have never had any issues adapting on the fly over the years. If you could play Como and his counts as "my pretty pony" list .. you should be well prepared for anything FW throws at you .. : )

Well, yes. But it's kind of like the old Armored Company lists - if you didn't KNOW that an all-AV 14 "Troops" list with battlecannons was possible, you might have just a bit less fun when you ran into it.

And knowing is half the battle!

@Noir

It's some inside humor as I used to game with Janthkin before he relocated to the West Coast.

He might have had some FW units in that army ..hard to tell.. and the point being it was pretty hard to determine what anything was .. so you constantly got caught off guard or surprised. But it was Como .. so it was all good he wasn't going to win anyway. : )

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
For me, FW units add to 40K. God forbid armies shouldn't confirm to internet wisdom about "tiers" and what is and isn't OP. A lot of the arguments I hear against FW sound like nothing more than 'I fear change'.

If you don't know what a unit does, you will after you play it. Adapt or die, dudes.

#1, Army tiers is a 5th edition concept.

#2. I paid $90 to play at Comilazi Con ($60 for the event, and $15 a day for parking) and I do not want to pay that kind of money to "know what a unit does...after you play it.".

Why not just go buy a trophy if you want a reward or a prostitute if you want some fun. Both can be found cheaper.

I haven't paid a penny to become familiar enough with FW that I'm not surprised by it and I'm adult enough to not be offended when I get beaten, regardless of what units my opponent fields.

Reported... Please don't reply to the above.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
It is nowhere near the same...

one company makes the rules all the rules (GW) of which FW is part of said company (GW) and its been stated by the company that the units with the "40k" sticker are useable in normal games, so you tell me how its not the same as refusing to allow someone the use of a unit from a codex and the use of a unit from... there codex, becuase thats what FW does (not all the time admitedly), it adds unts to the codex, case in point, Ork junka, slap a shokk attack gun to it and take it as a transport for your big mek, or select it as an elite choice, you denying me one of my legitimate elite choices is the same as me saying you cannot use a ... doom sythe or something.

But as I said before, FW and tourny's is totally diferent (across all areas) as it all comes down the the organisor.

That is all very well good - just make sure to mention that to the TO.

Not sure if serious, you did read the last line I wrote right?

The line about TO's basically doing whatever they like as its there event?

So there would be no "just make sure to mention that to the TO" as I preped before the event and know what to bring.

Also as I said before, not knowing FW rules is down to the player, the internet exists and its down to you not to use it.

 Phazael wrote:
@Walrus- All three of those xenos builds happened nearly a decade ago. Nob Bikers is the only one that won more than a couple major events and that was during a very narrow window of time. That ended decisively five years ago about the same time guard stopped sucking.

First of all, the now oldest Codex in the game is Codex: Black Templars. Codex: Black Templars is 7 years old. Codex: Eldar is 6 years old and Codex: Chaos Space Marines is 5 years old. 6 and 5 years respectively is nowhere near "a decade ago".

Secondly, the Imperial Guard Codex is 3 years old, which means that, unless Guard suddenly stopped sucking halfway through the life-span of the previous Codex (and Codex: Catachan) you're, once again, exaggerating.

 Phazael wrote:

As for cheap or OP alternatives in FW form, you can't be serious. Show me anything that lets a seige dred have a 83% chance to assault untouched anywhere on the table.

Block it off. It's not exactly hard to make sure that it doesn't reach stuff it really mustn't reach. There's also Interceptor units that can shoot it down.

 Phazael wrote:
Show me another AV13 flyer in the game aside from the Cestus, let alone with an invulnerable save.

It's 270-ish points for a flyer with one weapon. Sure, it's a fast, durable transport. Guess the Stormraven is OP, it has more firepower and is cheaper. And for the record, Dark Eldar fliers have invulnerable saves too.

 Phazael wrote:
Show me another 4 HP flier in the game, let alone with the firepower and transport capacity of a Storm Eagle.

What are you going to transport in there that you can't transport in something else? A 20-man Black Templars Crusader Squad? And a Stormraven easily puts out as much firepower, as do Night- and Doomscythes for their points.

 Phazael wrote:
Where is there a xenos entry like the FW Hydras or Chimeras that just add Interceptor or Autocannon turret options for a pitance of points?

For that matter, where's the rules giving a Hydra Interceptor (is it in Aeronautica? Haven't had time to read through that one yet)? I'll give you right on the Autocannons, but add: where's that option for anyone but Imperial Guard?

 Phazael wrote:

Meanwhile, Xenos get a couple of overpriced/under powered flyers, trucks with death rollas, and a million crisis suit varients that no one really cares about. Oh, I guess my eldar also got the psychic Wraithlord. Again, not saying that FW changes the IG SW dominance dynamic, but it (like allies rules) does greatly reinforce it.

Yeah, Hornets and Wasps are completely pointless and no one cares about them, just as no one cares about the Pirahna. Except no. Those actually matter. Orks get the hilariously powerful Lifta Wagon and Grot Battle-Tank mobs.

And how do IG and SW get so much better from the units you listed anyway? Nothing in that lists tops Vendettas, Manticores, Long Fangs or the humble Grey Hunter. I can see the Autocannon Chimeras buffing Chimeras (obiously, duh ), but other than that, what?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Phazael wrote:
@Walrus- All three of those xenos builds happened nearly a decade ago. Nob Bikers is the only one that won more than a couple major events and that was during a very narrow window of time. That ended decisively five years ago about the same time guard stopped sucking.

First of all, the now oldest Codex in the game is Codex: Black Templars. Codex: Black Templars is 7 years old. Codex: Eldar is 6 years old and Codex: Chaos Space Marines is 5 years old. 6 and 5 years respectively is nowhere near "a decade ago".

Secondly, the Imperial Guard Codex is 3 years old, which means that, unless Guard suddenly stopped sucking halfway through the life-span of the previous Codex (and Codex: Catachan) you're, once again, exaggerating.

 Phazael wrote:

As for cheap or OP alternatives in FW form, you can't be serious. Show me anything that lets a seige dred have a 83% chance to assault untouched anywhere on the table.

Block it off. It's not exactly hard to make sure that it doesn't reach stuff it really mustn't reach. There's also Interceptor units that can shoot it down.

 Phazael wrote:
Show me another AV13 flyer in the game aside from the Cestus, let alone with an invulnerable save.

It's 270-ish points for a flyer with one weapon. Sure, it's a fast, durable transport. Guess the Stormraven is OP, it has more firepower and is cheaper. And for the record, Dark Eldar fliers have invulnerable saves too.

 Phazael wrote:
Show me another 4 HP flier in the game, let alone with the firepower and transport capacity of a Storm Eagle.

What are you going to transport in there that you can't transport in something else? A 20-man Black Templars Crusader Squad? And a Stormraven easily puts out as much firepower, as do Night- and Doomscythes for their points.

 Phazael wrote:
Where is there a xenos entry like the FW Hydras or Chimeras that just add Interceptor or Autocannon turret options for a pitance of points?

For that matter, where's the rules giving a Hydra Interceptor (is it in Aeronautica? Haven't had time to read through that one yet)? I'll give you right on the Autocannons, but add: where's that option for anyone but Imperial Guard?

 Phazael wrote:

Meanwhile, Xenos get a couple of overpriced/under powered flyers, trucks with death rollas, and a million crisis suit varients that no one really cares about. Oh, I guess my eldar also got the psychic Wraithlord. Again, not saying that FW changes the IG SW dominance dynamic, but it (like allies rules) does greatly reinforce it.

Yeah, Hornets and Wasps are completely pointless and no one cares about them, just as no one cares about the Pirahna. Except no. Those actually matter. Orks get the hilariously powerful Lifta Wagon and Grot Battle-Tank mobs.

And how do IG and SW get so much better from the units you listed anyway? Nothing in that lists tops Vendettas, Manticores, Long Fangs or the humble Grey Hunter. I can see the Autocannon Chimeras buffing Chimeras (obiously, duh ), but other than that, what?

The Allies system and the fact that IG can ally with almost everyone makes that point moot.

 Phazael wrote:
1) Availability- While the models and rules are certainly available online, realistically you need to invest almost half a grand just to have access to the books with the units most likely to be seen. Furthermore, even if you are living in a major metropolitan area, getting a FW model is a lengthy pain in the ass compared to just walking into a GW and picking out a couple stock models off the shelf.

Not true. It will cost you about $150 (including shipping) to get the three books which contain the vast majority of FW units.

And it's hardly a "length pain in the ass" to get a FW model, it's exactly as easy as ordering a book from amazon, special-ordering that finecast character you can't buy in stores from GW's website, etc. In 2012 there's really no excuse for calling online shopping difficult.

nkelsch wrote:
This is all a moot point until the US distribution rumor ever comes true or not. As long as the only way to get these models is a credit card which can be used internationaly, it is exlusionary. If any of the US distribution becomes reality, then it becomes a pissing match over META games.

Wait, you mean some people have credit cards that can't be used internationally? I've never even heard of this problem, but if you're one of those unfortunate people just get a debit card and free checking account from a bank that allows you to do it. I made the account for the card I use for FW orders (Bank of America) online in under 15 minutes and then all it takes is one trip to the ATM to put some cash in the account.

 Phazael wrote:
Show me anything that lets a seige dred have a 83% chance to assault untouched anywhere on the table.

Show me anything that cares. Was anyone taking (non-BA) assault dreads in the first place? I don't think so, because they're horribly overcosted for the few attacks you get and getting to eat a meatshield unit on turn 1 (at the risk of immobilizing and losing the dread) doesn't really change this. So what this really means is you can drop your rifleman dreads into close combat right away, were they don't want to be.

Show me another AV13 flyer in the game aside from the Cestus, let alone with an invulnerable save.

Did you see the price tag on that Caestus? You're starting at almost 300 points, then you have to pay to add a decent unit to transport. End result: even if you kill a unit every other turn once you arrive (don't forget that it's not exactly agile) you're still overpaying for it compared to anti-vehicle tools like drop pod Sternguard. And of course if you ever want to deploy the passengers to do anything you've got to hover, at which point your 300 point flyer becomes a 300 point crater.

Show me another 4 HP flier in the game, let alone with the firepower and transport capacity of a Storm Eagle.

So what? What exactly are you trying to kill that needs that transport capacity? It isn't superheavy so you can't fill that 20 model capacity with two squads, so either you waste half of it (and it's no better than a 10-man transport) or you're carrying a full squad of terminators which is massive (and expensive) overkill against 95% of the things you could use them against. And then when it gets shot down (hello overpowered allied IG with Sabre guns) you just lost a 400+ point terminator squad.

Even Sisters got the Avenger, which would be amazing in any xenos list, but is merely meh in an army that can ally IG as battle brothers and take Vendettas.

That's exactly the point. Imperial armies already have awesome codex stuff so even good FW units get a "meh" reaction because they aren't better than the Vendetta you already have. Adding FW doesn't have all that much of an impact if you play a competitive Imperial army already. On the other hand if you're a xenos player you WILL use your FW options, so you gain a lot more than the IG player who gets 9999999 more Leman Russ variants they'll never use.

 Janthkin wrote:
Well, yes. But it's kind of like the old Armored Company lists - if you didn't KNOW that an all-AV 14 "Troops" list with battlecannons was possible, you might have just a bit less fun when you ran into it.

Except once you see a tournament's rules and it says "FW allowed" then you know those lists are possible. It's now your job to prepare adequately for the tournament and be familiar with what is possible, just like it's your job to prepare for all the potential codex lists you could encounter. If you're surprised by something it's entirely your fault.

 WarOne wrote:
FW is a barrier to some players (not all of them) either because they've never had it/seen it/could afford it.

Absolutely true.

But this is no different at all to regular codex units.

If someone wants to buy and memorise every codex, then they can buy and memorise every IA book as well.

If they don't, then there is no difference between a codex unit they don't know about, and an IA unit they don't know about.

In either case, there is no reason to disallow Imperial Armour units.

 RiTides wrote:
It's about the legitimate discussion of what it does to the game, both good, bad, or unknown

That's not what the discussion should be about though. The discussion should be about whether or not Imperial Armour units do things to the game that the regular codex units do not.

Are they harder to find out about, and memorise the rules for? No.

Are they more imbalanced than units found in codexes? No.

Do they more of an advantage to certain factions than the codexes? No.

So what reason could you use to ban them that wouldn't also result in the banning of certain codexes, or units from codexes?

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Davylove21 wrote:
For me, FW units add to 40K. God forbid armies shouldn't confirm to internet wisdom about "tiers" and what is and isn't OP. A lot of the arguments I hear against FW sound like nothing more than 'I fear change'.

If you don't know what a unit does, you will after you play it. Adapt or die, dudes.

#1, Army tiers is a 5th edition concept.

#2. I paid $90 to play at Comilazi Con ($60 for the event, and $15 a day for parking) and I do not want to pay that kind of money to "know what a unit does...after you play it.".

So do the same thing you do with the codex units: get a copy of the rules, and read them!