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 shasolenzabi wrote:
In all honesty, considering the amount of money sunk into a FW unit or tank, and the points sinks that the are, I have amused myself when one goes up in a huge cloud as the rolls of the dice went against the person who brought such thing. many could be easily replaced by cheaper and more plentiful units or vehicles, and they happen to be cool models, and if the TO makes sure that any player using FW makes photo-copies for their opponent to look at so they are familarized enough for the battle, then why worry? And they have made the rules more balanced, my 325 point Valdor Tank hunbter is as much a danger to itself as any leman russ out there.(If I do no damage to the russ after hitting it, Say I roll under the armor value, I take a d-3 glancing hits due to power feedback.) So with things like that I tend to not really care. Many of the supposedly "balanced" squads and such in codex are far nastier for the points when matched to a "similar" valued unit in an older or other codex.

I always get a kick out of people who say forge world items are under-powered for the most part and that they are taking them because they are cool models.

At a tournaments you will never see the bad/fluffy units. On the table top you will only see the best units that FW has to offer. The first tournament that I went to that allowed Forge World the only FW that I saw were hades breaching drills and Sabre defense platforms.

FW 40k-approved units are as official as it would get. If FW is not official, they would get sued out of oblivion if they put a 40K stamp on their book.

I agree with all the points that Redbeard made. Until GW writes a "Tournament specific rules" that gets updated every month based on player feedback, FW 40K-approved units should be allowed in all 40K non-apocalypse games (tournament or not).

leohart wrote:
FW 40k-approved units are as official as it would get. If FW is not official, they would get sued out of oblivion if they put a 40K stamp on their book.

I'm not following you. Sued by whom and on what grounds?

Tournaments are run by game stores and clubs these days, who are free to allow or disallow what they want. The Forge World books still have the "Check with your opponents..." blah, blah, blah blurb at the front.

Those 40k and Apocalypse stamps are to show which units are meant for Apocalypse and which units are meant for standard games. They aren't "These units can be used without your opponent's permission" stamps. You should always ask your opponent what type of game he wants, regardless of FW or not. Do they want a "fluffy" army list, a hard-as-nails tournament game, or something in between?

I am a huge proponent of FW, and my group uses them all of the time. I have the Imperial Armory Books 5-11, along with the Imperial Armory Apocalypse books. I have no issue with them being used in normal games or tournament games.

But the folks that draw a line in the sand and say "You have to let me play with these! They're FW and official" really rub me the wrong way. (Not calling you out specifically here, Leohart)

What about how some armies, mainly Orks, get an ally force which is a battle brother, something most imperial armies take for granted. having extra HQs which are battle brothers makes a huge Impact IMHO. The ability to have an actual reasonable allied force is far and beyond more useful than the units it potentially adds. I feel like the 1999+1 allied situation is the largest impact to true balance right now in the META and armies with no battle brothers suffer the most.

What I meant by suing is: If FW is not endorsed by GW at least internally, they would not be able to create models to be used in a standard 40K game. This is unrelated to FW's being a subsidiary of GW. If FW starts breaking the game, GW would do something about it.

Thus, units with the 40K approved stamp should be treated as if they are available in the normal codices. Informing your opponent about the usage of such unit should be a courtesy not a requirement. Making it a requirement creates a segregation which should not exist given this being a social and friendly hobby.

You have to let me play with these! They're FW and official

I don't think any rational person would utter such non-sense. After all, this is an at-will game. One can choose to play only against Orks and nothing else.

leohart wrote:

You have to let me play with these! They're FW and official

I don't think any rational person would utter such non-sense. After all, this is an at-will game. One can choose to play only against Orks and nothing else.

Certainly, but that argument/statement/whatever always seems to rear its ugly head in these discussions.

We're still cool, though!

I can't help but find this thread pretty interesting, I have seen a increase in Forge World play but only in casual matches,in these I often see disagreements of rules and other problems. I don't know if there are easy to get FAQs for Forge World rules but if there are not then I think that is another reason for Forge World not be in tournaments.

This is of course just my own thoughts so take it with some salt.

 Ecstasy in Service wrote:
I don't know if there are easy to get FAQs for Forge World rules but if there are not then I think that is another reason for Forge World not be in tournaments.

Check out the link in my signature. Rules update for 6th edition were posted fairly quickly.

I would imagine that the rules debates were due to unfamiliarity to the units in question. I haven't played Sisters of Battle before. I would imagine that such a game would see me asking a lot of questions, too.

leohart wrote:
FW 40k-approved units are as official as it would get.

GW still runs GTs (one in the US and several in the UK) so if they are "official as it would get" then why does GW not allow forge world at their tournaments?

 Blackmoor wrote:

leohart wrote:
FW 40k-approved units are as official as it would get.

GW still runs GTs (one in the US and several in the UK) so if they are "official as it would get" then why does GW not allow forge world at their tournaments?

Why do they match people who have already played each other during the tournament.... why do they determine the overall winner in the crazy way that they do? Hardly the best example.

Official only really matters for Indy GTs and that is up to TOs.

 Blackmoor wrote:

leohart wrote:
FW 40k-approved units are as official as it would get.

GW still runs GTs (one in the US and several in the UK) so if they are "official as it would get" then why does GW not allow forge world at their tournaments?

Who knows, likely inertia. However they run a small minority of the major events these days, at least in the US, and have made it clear that their tournament rules and standards should not be applied to anything outside said events. Tournaments are not the standard for "official" standing or not. Again, GW's own tournaments aren't even standardized, and certainly in the past had rather divergent rules for chapter approved/white dwarf stuff, etc when all that...existed

I'll state the obvious response to that- most Indy GTs don't allow FW, or allow it but in limited measure.

Reecius' event(s) are the only GT(s) I know of who allow full, unrestricted FW use in the main event. Are there others?

As mentioned before, Adepticon has a tradition of allowing FW, but with restrictions (or unrestricted, but not in the main event).

Edit: To reiterate, I'm talking unrestricted FW use at the main event of a GT... not local tournies. Are there other examples I'm missing?

If the only reason for doing a thing is that has been done that way before, you should look into changing it.

Reason, not history, should drive decision making. Remember when you couldn't use special characters in tournaments? The way things were does not have to be the way they will be.

Reecius's event allowed it. Did the sky crumble? Did the roof melt in? Did people thrown down their models and storm out in protest? Were there any major issues at all?

While that is true, just because a sample set of 1 works doesn't mean there won't be issues with it in other places, or even the same place, under different circumstances, or once people start preparing FW heavy lists more regularly, with FW allies, etc. It's a big unknown.

Doesn't mean it's not worth trying, but one success doesn't make the large number of legitimate concerns about it invalid. Hopefully, we will see more FW in events, but my personal opinion is that unrestricted FW will degrade other's events. I would love to try restricted FW events, though- like the '12 Adepticon Team Tourney, which I loved!

And Reason, not a history of 1, is why I favor restricted FW rather than unrestricted

 RiTides wrote:
I'll state the obvious response to that- most Indy GTs don't allow FW, or allow it but in limited measure.

Reecius' event(s) are the only GT(s) I know of who allow full, unrestricted FW use in the main event. Are there others?

As mentioned before, Adepticon has a tradition of allowing FW, but with restrictions (or unrestricted, but not in the main event).

Edit: To reiterate, I'm talking unrestricted FW use at the main event of a GT... not local tournies. Are there other examples I'm missing?

I believe that the Mechanicon GT at the Warstore Weekend will be allowing all FW, except for superheavies and the Apoc units. At least, that is what I heard.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I find it somewhat ironic the guy who won the la gt spammed a cheap uber powerful broken unit. That is what will happen... Just like anything else. FW does not solve anything - it just creates more problems. I think it only works for highly specialized tournaments run by gaming vets.

Whoa now partner, let's get our facts straight.

The guy who won used 2 units of Sabers, hardly spamming.

Also, EVERY SINGLE PERSON HE PLAYED said they didn't think the Sabers were OP. In fact, his opponents said the units that did the most damage for him were the Plasmacutioners behind the Aegis and the Masters of Ordnance (shockingly).

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but please don't bandy false information.


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vhwolf in the Ironman has allowed FW and FW lists for a long time! The BSB here in CA has always used FW. In Europe lots of events have been suing FW for years.

It's been done long before us, we're just the ones in the spotlight right now for it is all.

It's been done long before us, we're just the ones in the spotlight right now for it is all.

GW Canada, when it existed, allowed FW in their GTs (3ed and 4ed).
Astronomicon, a long running indy event in Canada ran by guys that playtested for GW at one time, has allowed FW since 3ed.

That's just off the top of my head.

That said, at least for the foreseeable future I won't be allowing FW at an event I run. I'd like to get a good handle on what works and doesn't in 6ed for tournaments before I start introducing even more variables into the mix.

And that said, I am still glad there are events that allow em, cause they are beautiful models and deserve more chances to hit the table and diversity in available events is a good thing.

Reecius, the fact that you say his opponents didn't mind the sabers is anecdotal, though. The fact remains he won with them, and allowing FW will make IG allies really popular. Whether that's good or bad is open to interpretation- but I certainly don't think it's a slamdunk that it's a good thing for a tourney.

Didn't he beat a Necron flyer army in the last round? I bet those cheap sabers were quite a boon in that game.

Yes, this year's MechaniCon allows all Forge World units approved for 40k (basically no superheavies or gargantuan creatures).

We have also had a side tournament the past couple years that allowed any FW units or army lists approved for 40k. Here is what we saw:

Collectors of armies done by FW were allowed to play with their gorgeous models - many for the first time.

An Ork player was finally able to bring his awesome Grot Tanks to the tabletop.

Forge World units were exposed to new armies and did not break the game

Not every player out there is only in this miniatures game just for the game, they are in it for the miniatures

Sure there are some tournaments that don't want to use FW or their attendees will be afraid of what they may go against, but in the end most events are as varied as the armies that show up. There has been many new events that have gained in popularity but by no means are they the only way to play. Some tournaments change the rules to fit their interpretation, create their own FAQs, disallow Mysterious effects and even using missions that do not follow the book is an example of changing the rules. Forge World being accepted seems pretty clear to me but then again so does using the rules in the main book.


The Berks Warhammer club is also planning to include FW units in their events. They started running a large 40K tournament a few years ago. They have grown and the one this spring had over 75 players - so they are approaching in scale to be a major indy event.

RITides - The obvious part to me is we are talking about an INDY event... All these events are Independent and can be run however each TO sees fit. 6th edition is a brand new game and only recently did the Forge World books designate the units in the newer books as 40K legal.
Look at how many events change the rules to create a "competitive" environment - yet they don't use GW terrain and hardly use any of the selections of what is shown in the book, choose not to use basic parts of missions (Mysterious effects) and many more tweaks. None of that is "GW Official", yet players love it. Also, most major events are grown from local tournies so don't exclude them from the discussion.

Blackmoor - GW is no longer running events in the US. When Ed S. left, the new staff killed all events and the reasoning I was given (and I wasn't the only one) is that they did not agree with the competitive, cutthroat atmosphere of many events out there have created and didn't want to associate with that. This included Ard Boyz and GT's (remember 'Ard Boyz?). They are stuck running this year's Throne of Skulls because it was already established and tickets were awarded. I am sure many of us noticed that tickets were originally to go on sale in January which got bumped to June, then July then August then it was September (1 month before the event) before they put tickets on sale? It also got handed to the bunker staff to organize and will not be the affair it was last year.

Also, you can get a kick out of the fact that at our event YES the players showed up with the cool models and not just going for the killer units.

Just get rid of tournaments all together and then no one will care if FW is 'allowed' or not.

 Tironum wrote:
RITides - The obvious part to me is we are talking about an INDY event... All these events are Independent and can be run however each TO sees fit. 6th edition is a brand new game and only recently did the Forge World books designate the units in the newer books as 40K legal.
Look at how many events change the rules to create a "competitive" environment - yet they don't use GW terrain and hardly use any of the selections of what is shown in the book, choose not to use basic parts of missions (Mysterious effects) and many more tweaks. None of that is "GW Official", yet players love it. Also, most major events are grown from local tournies so don't exclude them from the discussion.

Totally agreed that no event needs to feel the need to conform to any other- that was actually the primary reason for my posting in this thread (the perception, when 6th hit, that some folks wanted ALL tournies to open up and allow FW). Discussing the options available to Independent events is, after all, a large part of the purpose for this thread, I think!

Tironum wrote:We have also had a side tournament the past couple years that allowed any FW units or army lists approved for 40k.

Personally, I think that's a great thing to allow full-on FW for (just like Adepticon does with the Gladiator!).

But it could be different when it's in the main event... Or, more to the point, when it's in the main event next year and folks will have had time to plan what allies they want to take, and what FW options are available to those allies (such as IG).

I do not think you would see much of an adverse effect this year- 6th edition is still too new for most folks to have built for it yet. However, because of that, I also think that if it goes well this year, it won't necessarily indicate what things will be like once folks have really caught on to how they can build with FW from their allies.

I will be very interested to hear how it goes. I was actually hoping to attend Mechanicon at the Warstore Weekend this year. Unfortunately I won't be making it... but, I look forward to hearing how it goes.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Didn't he beat a Necron flyer army in the last round? I bet those cheap sabers were quite a boon in that game.

Picking out the one FW unit in an army and declaring it a decisive factor doesn't necessarily make it so.

 RiTides wrote:
Reecius, the fact that you say his opponents didn't mind the sabers is anecdotal, though. The fact remains he won with them, and allowing FW will make IG allies really popular. Whether that's good or bad is open to interpretation- but I certainly don't think it's a slamdunk that it's a good thing for a tourney.

If not them, it would just be something else. Tony won with ig allies at nova and didn't use fw. That, also, will make ig popular allies. They're allowed as allies with more armies than any other, apparently, they're good allies. Falling back on the This game isn't that complicated thought again...

What about they players who lost with fw units. Maybe they'd have won without them. Maybe the origin of the unit really just isn't that important, and this distinction is simply a mindset that you need to move past. Fw really is no different than the rest of gw. They have some good, more bad, and the only real issue is whether you like diversity. And freedom. Why do you hate freedom?

I don't hate freedom

But I do think you will see a Much more pronounced "Kopach effect" if FW were allowed in more tournies.

And you can bet your buttons that if FW is allowed in the Nova next year, and rules haven't changed, he'd have some nasty IG FW unit in there. Nothing wrong with it at all, but the top players are going to take the best tools available to them- and some of those IG FW units are going to be undisputably some of the best tools.

Sure, you'll see people taking fun/fluffy units... but there's a trade-off to be had here.

Personally, I think the Adepticon solution of making FW units unique, and thus un-spammable, is a pretty darn elegant way of "having your cake and eating it too". People get to break out their toys, but don't get to spam the one super unit that FW hasn't updated rules for yet (at this moment, the saber, next year, who knows).

I know people do this normally, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. But you can't say "People will bring fun units" in the same breath as "Who cares if they spam uber units, it's just like the codexes". The second would have an adverse effect on army composition, as it would exacerbate the spam problems already evident in tournies.

Why not just make FW units 0-1 if you just want to play with a cool FW toy? What's the drawback? It's worked well for Adepticon, and would be a good stepping stone to more FW acceptance in tournies.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
I think the Narrative and team events are perfect places to allow FW. I am not against FW use across the board, just at the main GT style events. I actually like many of the FW models and their rules but it is the rarity of them that in my mind makes them unacceptable for major GT use.

I understand that stating FW makes the game less fun and less competitive is an opinion of mine but I think the case I made was fairly solid.

Out of interest, did you consider that one of the reasons FW is "rare" is because large numbers of players, regardless of whether they play in tournaments or not, use what is allowed in tournaments as the benchmark for what is "official"? There was recently a "discussion" over on Warseer about that very subject, and the core argument against was "it's not allowed in tournaments, so they're not really official rules".

Allowing FW units at tournaments removes that argument, which would likely lead to more players purchasing FW books and using FW units in their armies and allies, which would in turn eliminate your complaint that they are rare and difficult to learn about(not really true when you can get all the unit rules from IA1(stupid Glossary - this is a link) and IA2(and so is this) for free from the FW site by downloading the updates); the fraction of players, I would wager even among tournament goers, who learn other armies by buying each and every Codex is tiny, most learn by playing against other forces and by reading their friends'/gaming buddies' books.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Didn't he beat a Necron flyer army in the last round? I bet those cheap sabers were quite a boon in that game.

He did indeed, but the Cron player was very crafty and used terrain to come on the board out of LoS of the Sabers. The game came down to the last roll of the dice! What a great game, hardly over-powering. It made the game very fun and closely fought as opposed to a blowout which it likely would have been without the Sabers.

That is a very good thing, IMO.

My issue was that the language you used made it sound like he took a million sabers and walked all over everyone with little effort or skill, which is totally false. He barely won most of his games apart from his game against DE which the DE player had awful dice and got pretty owned.

Without knowing what actually happened, don't paint the FW units as OP, it takes away from Vince's win that he earned and it further pushes the fear of FW units that is largely rooted in ignorance or a lack of knowledge of what happened. The Sabers were very good, but did not win him the tournament by any stretch of the imagination.

If FW really were OP and ruined events, we wouldn't allow it as we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot and no one would go to our events. That just isn't the case.

The thing is, it's going to be different at every event, too. I read (in this thread?) that the missions you guys use, Reecius, seem to allow flyers to dominate a bit more than the ones used at some other events, such as Nova.

So, maybe Sabers make it a close game in your format where flyers were a bit more powerful, but in the Nova format (where table quarters were emphasized a bit more as the primary, or something?) maybe the Sabers just wreck face.

It's going to be a different for each event depending on tons of factors... but I don't think we'll truly know until folks have had time to build for FW events now that allies are in. The more events allowing full-on FW, the larger the effect will be.

And maybe it will work out fine but it's definitely worth considering the alternatives or possible problems that could arise with such a shift in the general tournament meta.

Edit: Found the quote I was thinking of regarding flyers and the BAO, spoilered below for reference/context to what I said above:

[quote=RiTides

But I also would caveat what you've said with this: 6th edition is very new, and thus allies are very new. So, while allowing FW may have gone well for you in the past for a side event (not the main event if I'm understanding you correctly), you could see a very different environment once people have had time to plan for allies with FW, as mentioned above. I do not think you would see this effect this year- 6th edition is still too new for most folks to have built for it yet.

Astronomi-con has allowed FW (non-super heavy and non-gargantuan) for each of the past 3 years I have attended, and I understand they have been allowing FW long before that.

For me, the biggest obstacle FW models offer is a lack of familiarity with them. This makes them harder to deal with on the table top, when I have no experience on how they will function and little time to really think hard about it.

That being said, the option was always available to me to investigate all FW models. In this way, I see this being my fault, not the fault of the organizers or event rules.

My experience with FW was positive, even with the feeling of being under-prepared against them.

In my book, no reason to exclude FW.