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RiTides wrote:You think it's OK to use an old version, RB? That seems off.

Actually, yes, I do. Because it's a game, and oddly enough, the old versions are no better or worse than the new versions.

I ran a tournament last year, I called it the "Retro tournament" - people could use old codexes instead of the most recent, if they wanted. A few did. No one died. Everyone had a good time.

There's a new chaos codex out, right? (or maybe it's tomorrow). Does that mean that all of a sudden, the old chaos codex is unbalanced? That it's going to break the game? How have we survived the four years that it's been out?

With only a few minor exceptions, Codex Creep means that newer stuff is better, cheaper, or some combination of both. Why would anyone have an issue with someone running 9 point orks without furious charge when they could be running six point orks with furious charge? Unless perhaps they were running deathwing and afraid of the old choppa rule...

New codexes (or forgeworld books) aren't so out of place as people seem to want to believe. I have a friend who has an arbites army, built under the old witchhunters codex. The new Sisters codex doesn't really work for that. What's better, what's more legitimate, continuing to use the older codex to run that army, or using a fandex? I'd rather he just keep using the old WH codex, personally.

So, yeah, as long as both players know the rules for what's on the table, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with using an older version, whether than be an older version of FW books, or an older version of a codex. The game hasn't changed so substantially that these older versions are no longer compatible, so what's the big deal?

 Redbeard wrote:

With only a few minor exceptions, Codex Creep means that newer stuff is better, cheaper, or some combination of both. Why would anyone have an issue with someone running 9 point orks without furious charge when they could be running six point orks with furious charge? Unless perhaps they were running deathwing and afraid of the old choppa rule...

I would pay 9 points for an ork if I had the old choppa rule.

 Redbeard wrote:

Actually, yes, I do. Because it's a game, and oddly enough, the old versions are no better or worse than the new versions.

95% of the time, this is correct RB. However, there are some units that got hit with the nerf bat as they were pretty darn powerful on their first release. One of them is arguably one of the most likely you'll see in a tournament: Lucious Pattern Drop Pod.

 RiTides wrote:

Nobody replied to say what books I need! Do I honestly need them all dating back to IA1, or will the 3 most recent (what are they?) suffice?

I don't think you need them all. Most FW units will come from Aeronautica, Apocalypse Second Edition, and Apocalypse 2, which contain many non-apocalypse and non-filers, despite their respective names. You'll also want the Horus Heresy book, I'd imagine. I can't wait to get my greedy little hands on that one! There should be a lot of units that will gain popularity from it. I can't say until I get mine, though.

If someone wants to bring something beyond that, they'll need to bring their book. That Adepticon pdf that someone posted above looks pretty good, now that I've had a chance to flip through it more. As long as your up-to-date with which is the most recent book and you require people to bring their books, you should do fine. I'm sharing this pdf with my gaming group, for sure.


Edit: Whoops. This doesn't have Aeronautica, obviously. The Caestus Assault Ram was updated in Aeronautica and I don't see the Contemptor Dreadnoughts at all.

Nobody replied to say what books I need

Rtides – You just need the ones that have the rules for the models you plan to play. : )

At Chicago Games Day Forgeworld announced they would in addition to the, Horus Hersey book be producing IA:12 (Necrons, Minotaurs and DKoK). They also mentioned they would be revisiting and updating IA1. So the expectation is there will be a single updated book this year to bring the current Imperial stuff together for 6th edition.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Edit: Whoops. This doesn't have Aeronautica, obviously. The Caestus Assault Ram was updated in Aeronautica and I don't see the Contemptor Dreadnoughts at all.

Kronk,

That document exists as it did for AdeptiCon 2012. So it has yet to account for any new book releases. : )

muwhe wrote:

You have once again made the mistake of believing that the metagame is balanced, with or without Forgeworld. Any argument against the inclusion of Forgeworld that uses the word balance is automatically invalid.

+1 this.

+1 your this and his


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Muwhe - Awesome! I have been wanting a reason to finish up my DKoK.

muwhe- I meant more to read up on the units that are available... given the below, is it true that I can't buy the books direct from FW for all the units that could be fielded? (i.e. I have to go through ebay?)

I think that's reasonable for a few units... but to have to go through ebay for 8 or 9? books of units... that seems a bit excessive!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Technically all but IA1 & IA 2 aren't available anymore. I think they are going to be reprinted updated for 6th but right now they don't exist outside of ebay legitimately.

In reality, it would depend on what you'd want to know the rules for. The three most recent won't cover some of the ork or eldar stuff. Though I don't currently have an IA Aeronatica (sp?) yet so maybe that has some of the missing units. Naturally characters and such are in their relevent books like Badab 9-10 for a ton of space marine ones.

So... what you said below would obviously be a lot preferable to what seems to be the alternative! If they could just consolidate their rules into at least current books that are still available, that'd be a huge boon towards being able to read up on the rules for at least the majority of the units.

muwhe wrote:At Chicago Games Day Forgeworld announced they would in addition to the, Horus Hersey book be producing IA:12 (Necrons, Minotaurs and DKoK). They also mentioned they would be revisiting and updating IA1. So the expectation is there will be a single updated book this year to bring the current Imperial stuff together for 6th edition.

 Redbeard wrote:
So, yeah, as long as both players know the rules for what's on the table, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with using an older version, whether than be an older version of FW books, or an older version of a codex. The game hasn't changed so substantially that these older versions are no longer compatible, so what's the big deal?

You don't see how having one person field an army and having it be entirely different from another army that uses the exact same models is a problem?

i would pay 9 points for an ork if I had the old choppa rule.

i wood do the same here my self

 Kingsley wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
So, yeah, as long as both players know the rules for what's on the table, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with using an older version, whether than be an older version of FW books, or an older version of a codex. The game hasn't changed so substantially that these older versions are no longer compatible, so what's the big deal?

You don't see how having one person field an army and having it be entirely different from another army that uses the exact same models is a problem?

What, you mean like the players who paint their marines generic colours and use them interchangably as space wolves, salamanders, blood angels, and even chaos marines and grey knights? No, I don't notice that having a noticeable detrimental effect on most gamers.

Redbeard, a better example would be using a single unit from an old SW codex, alongside all the new units.

That could create a ton of problems... see below.

 madfjohn wrote:

i would pay 9 points for an ork if I had the old choppa rule.

@RItides,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books

All but Imperial Armor 1, 2, 3 are available through the Forgeworld website.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica covers pretty much all current FW Flyers and AA units and Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd Edition covers off on another wide swath of other units. Both books run 26 sterling or roughly 40.00 USD. Between those two books you would have a pretty good start on the FW units available.

Keep in mind that Imperial Armor 1 and 2 .. are both approaching a decade old. Coming out towards the tail end of 3rd edition / start of 4th. Both have had extensive FAQ support from Forgeworld over the past ten years. So it's time to revisit this material and consolidate the rules.

muwhe wrote:
@RItides,

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books

All but Imperial Armor 1, 2, 3 are available through the Forgeworld website.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica covers pretty much all current FW Flyers and AA units and Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd Edition covers off on another wide swath of other units. Both books run 26 sterling or roughly 40.00 USD. Between those two books you would have a pretty good start on the FW units available.

Keep in mind that Imperial Armor 1 and 2 .. are both approaching a decade old. Coming out towards the tail end of 3rd edition / start of 4th. Both have had extensive FAQ support from Forgeworld over the past ten years. So it's time to revisit this material and consolidate the rules.

You don't even have to order them from Forgeworld. I just bought Aeronautica at my local GW store.

muwhe wrote:
Keep in mind that Imperial Armor 1 and 2 .. are both approaching a decade old. Coming out towards the tail end of 3rd edition / start of 4th. Both have had extensive FAQ support from Forgeworld over the past ten years. So it's time to revisit this material and consolidate the rules.

Thanks for the link/summary, and if they would do the above, that would be great!

Mohoc wrote:
You don't even have to order them from Forgeworld. I just bought Aeronautica at my local GW store.

My "local" GW is at least a 2 hour drive, and doesn't stock any FW anything. If I want to order it, they facilitate the ordering, but I pay shipping. So I gain nothing by using them over just ordering from the Internet myself.

If its a GW product, why am I paying shipping when ordering through a GW store?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
So, yeah, as long as both players know the rules for what's on the table, I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with using an older version, whether than be an older version of FW books, or an older version of a codex. The game hasn't changed so substantially that these older versions are no longer compatible, so what's the big deal?

You don't see how having one person field an army and having it be entirely different from another army that uses the exact same models is a problem?

I think the issue is not the models but having a mixture of an oop Dex instead of a current Dex for your army with a hodgepodge of models, the larger point is using an oop dex. How do you handle a player who shows up to a game with a Necron Army using 3rd edition dex and the 3rd edition rules while the next guy has Necrons to but is using the current dex and 6th edition rules? I think the answer is obvious in most circumstances.

This has been a great discussion and shows why things happen often due to misguidance intentionally directed on the Internet. I understand that there are some people who want to use Forgeworld more for fun but I think there are also some people trying to enforce their will. Based on my experience Adepticon handles Forgeworld the best by far...

They have the experience
Their documentation overall to support is very good
Events like the Gladiator are quite reputable

That said and just like anything else some people will want to abuse it. Adepticon has a top staff to facilitate the application of Forgeworld but I don't think you can make that a blanket statement for the majority of events. Maybe one day GW will better integrate it into their core system but at this point in time it's nowhere close to ready.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think there are also some people trying to enforce their will.

I think this is really missing the point. No one's trying to enforce their will, the pro Forgeworld people are simply stating that banning forgeworld is like banning Necrons. There is absolutely no difference at all.

People can obviously run events however they want. There was even an event in Australia (I think last year) that banned Grey Knights. But it's generally accepted that banning a codex is stupid and needless. It needs to be acknowledged that banning forgeworld is equally stupid and needless.

People get all up in arms when this is pointed out to them though, because no one likes to be told they're doing something stupid.

We aren't telling anyone that they all have to allow forgeworld. We're just saying that this thing they're doing is just like this other thing, and this other thing is stupid. So what they're doing is also stupid. They are, of course, free to be stupid.

Please note, I'm not directing this at any particular poster, person, organisation or event. It's just my opinion that banning a codex and banning FW are no different. And that banning a codex is stupid, therefore banning FW is also stupid.

 Kaldor wrote:
I think this is really missing the point. No one's trying to enforce their will, the pro Forgeworld people are simply stating that banning forgeworld is like banning Necrons. There is absolutely no difference at all.

Except that Forge World has a long history of being unofficial or opponent's permission only, and Games Workshop itself doesn't consider Forge World to be official or allow it in their events. Please stop with the "Forge World books are just like any other!" myth, it's really getting old fast.

Are there good reasons to allow Forge World? Yes. But "It's totally official guys, seriously!" isn't one of them.

 Kingsley wrote:
Except that Forge World has a long history of being unofficial or opponent's permission only

So what? You used to be limited to only using one codex, now you can take allies. Obsolete rules from old editions are irrelevant. FW used to require permission years ago, now it doesn't. Welcome to 2012 and 6th edition. Either play the game as the rules state, or admit that you just want to ban stuff you don't like.

and Games Workshop itself doesn't consider Forge World to be official or allow it in their events.

GW considers FW 100% official, as they have explicitly stated in their books.

GW's tournament also only allows 500 points of allies, but I don't see anyone demanding that tournaments stop allowing more than 500 points of allies. Nor did it stop people from complaining about how stupid GW's tournament missions were back when 'ard boyz existed and making better ones. The whole "GW does it this way, so should we" argument only comes out when GW is doing something you already want, so it's absurd to pretend that the tournament community cares about how GW's own events are run.

Are there good reasons to allow Forge World? Yes. But "It's totally official guys, seriously!" isn't one of them.

Why not? They ARE official according to GW's own rules, and "play the game according to the rules" is a pretty good reason.

Kingsley wrote:
Except that Forge World has a long history of being unofficial or opponent's permission only, and Games Workshop itself doesn't consider Forge World to be official

This is patently false as has been shown time and time again. The books say they are official, they appear in GW publications and at their trade events, the products are stamped as Citadel models with GW copyrights produced by GW under a sub-brand. I don't know how much clearer it can be made that these are official Warhammer 40,000 products.

or allow it in their events.

Only at their tournaments, which they run a minority of and there have already been plenty of non-official/non-balance reasons explained why this situation could be (wanting to promote certain sales lines, wanting to keep organizational issues to a minimum, etc). Additionally, Tournaments are not, and have never been in any way the arbiter of "officialdom", and whats more is that the design studio came right out and said this sort of play is not the way they intended the game to be played in the first place, they're marketing events and nothing more.

 Peregrine wrote:


GW considers FW 100% official, as they have explicitly stated in their books.

You keep ignoring about half of that paragraph every time it's brought up, but that's not what it says.

And if GW says its 100% official, why do I have to pay shipping when ordering a FW book or model through a GW store? I don't if I'm ordering a SM codex or model.

Perhaps because they aren't as tightly entwined as you've implied?

rigeld2 wrote:
You keep ignoring about half of that paragraph every time it's brought up, but that's not what it says.

That's exactly what it says.

And the other half is irrelevant. It says that you SHOULD make sure your opponent is happy to play against FW models, not that you MUST. All it's really saying is "some people hate FW, you'll avoid arguments if you just don't try to play against them", and it has nothing to do with a tournament environment where the TO will inform everyone that FW rules may be present.

And if GW says its 100% official, why do I have to pay shipping when ordering a FW book or model through a GW store? I don't if I'm ordering a SM codex or model.

Because international shipping from the single warehouse which has the model you're ordering is expensive, and GW would rather charge you for it than make less profit? And anyway, what does the shipping cost have to do with whether something is official rulse-wise or not?

rigeld2 wrote:

You keep ignoring about half of that paragraph every time it's brought up, but that's not what it says.

It does point blank say that they are "official".

And if GW says its 100% official, why do I have to pay shipping when ordering a FW book or model through a GW store? I don't if I'm ordering a SM codex or model.

Because it's a different sales channel. That has nothing to do with being official or not.

And when did they start charging shipping? Never had to pay shipping at the few things I picked up at the bunker, though it's been a couple years admittedly.

Perhaps because they aren't as tightly entwined as you've implied?

Being located in the same building, sharing the same parking lot, and having the same copyrights would imply they are.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
I think this is really missing the point. No one's trying to enforce their will, the pro Forgeworld people are simply stating that banning forgeworld is like banning Necrons. There is absolutely no difference at all.

Except that Forge World has a long history of being unofficial or opponent's permission only, and Games Workshop itself doesn't consider Forge World to be official or allow it in their events. Please stop with the "Forge World books are just like any other!" myth, it's really getting old fast.

Are there good reasons to allow Forge World? Yes. But "It's totally official guys, seriously!" isn't one of them.

Except it is. The books say they are. There is quite literally a written document from GW saying they are official!.

If that doesn't convince you, then you are a lost cause.

 Kaldor wrote:
Except it is. The books say they are. There is quite literally a written document from GW saying they are official!.

If that doesn't convince you, then you are a lost cause.

Forge World can say whatever they want in their own little bubble-- I'm reading my 6th edition rulebook right now, and funnily enough Forge World never gets a mention, even in the hobby section about expansions to the game-- which even includes Black Library novels and 40k expansion books that came out during 4th edition!

 Kingsley wrote:
Forge World can say whatever they want in their own little bubble-- I'm reading my 6th edition rulebook right now, and funnily enough Forge World never gets a mention, even in the hobby section about expansions to the game-- which even includes Black Library novels and 40k expansion books that came out during 4th edition!

So what? The "this is official" statement is found in a GW book. It doesn't matter that it isn't repeated in some other GW book, as long as the other GW book doesn't say "this ISN'T official".

(And "in their own little bubble" is just ridiculous. FW is part of GW and they would not be allowed to publish a book saying "this is official" if that wasn't GW's policy.)

 Kingsley wrote:
I'm reading my 6th edition rulebook right now, and funnily enough Forge World never gets a mention, even in the hobby section about expansions to the game-- which even includes Black Library novels and 40k expansion books that came out during 4th edition!

If an explicitly worded written statement from GW isn't enough for you, then, well...

 Peregrine wrote:
So what? The "this is official" statement is found in a GW book. It doesn't matter that it isn't repeated in some other GW book, as long as the other GW book doesn't say "this ISN'T official".

(And "in their own little bubble" is just ridiculous. FW is part of GW and they would not be allowed to publish a book saying "this is official" if that wasn't GW's policy.)

Until GW itself-- not FW, no matter how "official" they say they are or aren't-- says FW is official, it isn't. There's a reason GW doesn't mention FW stuff in their rulebook and doesn't allow it at their events, and pretending there isn't is growing very tedious.

 Kingsley wrote:
Until GW itself-- not FW, no matter how "official" they say they are or aren't-- says FW is official, it isn't. There's a reason GW doesn't mention FW stuff in their rulebook and doesn't allow it at their events, and pretending there isn't is growing very tedious.

You know what else is tedious? People like you pretending you know better than GW about what GW products GW has decided are official in GW's game. The fact that GW hasn't published the exact statement you demand doesn't change the fact that they have answered the question. At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just flailing around for any evidence you can find to keep the hated FW rules out of your game.

Also, haven't we covered the "GW's events" argument enough? We don't argue that allies should be capped at 500 points because GW's tournament does it that way, we didn't argue that we should use all the endlessly criticized 'ard boyz missions because GW's tournament does it that way, and we certainly haven't let respect for the way GW does things stop us from complaining about soft scores and every other thing GW does wrong. So why is "how GW's tournament does it" suddenly the community standard in the case of FW?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Until GW itself-- not FW, no matter how "official" they say they are or aren't-- says FW is official, it isn't. There's a reason GW doesn't mention FW stuff in their rulebook and doesn't allow it at their events, and pretending there isn't is growing very tedious.

You know what else is tedious? People like you pretending you know better than GW about what GW products GW has decided are official in GW's game. The fact that GW hasn't published the exact statement you demand doesn't change the fact that they have answered the question. At this point it's pretty obvious that you're just flailing around for any evidence you can find to keep the hated FW rules out of your game.

Except, y'know, the part where FW supplements aren't recognized in the 40k rulebook and the rest of them are. Derp.

By the way, I own several Forge World models myself-- I just think Forge World's rules aren't ready for prime time. But in any case, you've boring me now.

*plonk*