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usa_supersonic wrote:
I am against- only think playing big pies or Strentgh D in the game.

I can't think of a single unit which has an apoc scale blast which isn't listed as 40k approved. Same with Strength D. But then again I have only given them a brief once over

The more I think about the topic the more I conclude a list of what is and isn't approved for a tournament can work well if the to uses good judgment and the mechanics of the unit did not change much from 5th ed to 6th.

Examples: grot tanks are fine, and nobody is going to have an aneurism over grot tanks. Dkok artillery becoming t7 and 4w with every guardsman addition a wound combined with an aegis defense line for the guardsmen well now that might cause people to have a stroke.

I would like to see more stuff like grot tanks in tournaments. If a to is going to allow some forge world things might work out great as most to know what they are doing. That being said I would advocate for a to to have a round table discussion on what forge world items are being considered for admission to a tournament so the player base can debate their concerns.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Valhalla130 wrote:
This may have been brought up prior to my post, I don't know, but as an IG player, what about FW things that have since popped up in the regular codex, like the heavy bolter or flamer turrets? Are those overpowered and shouldn't be allowed?

I would think that just having more options would never be a bad thing. I can understand the arguments for lack of access to a unit or option, but anyone can go online and find the stats for these things. Saying they would have no idea how they work before they face them is silly.

People should be expected to go look for 6-8 books worth of material somewhere on the internet to learn what someone 'might' bring to a tournament? And it's 'Silly' to say they shouldn't have all that information in their head somehow?

HBMC, mikhaila was responding to Valhalla's last sentence above.

Also note that he said on the last page, after we had this discussion previously, he allowed FW in his last 6 events, with hardly anyone who expressed interest bringing it. That's another point to consider- in non-FW heavy areas, allowing/disallowing may be a non-issue. I feel like my area, 2 hours south of mikhaila, is similar.

That's why the next tourney I'm running at my FLGS is a doubles tourney, where players only get 1000 points to work with. The last tourney that I ran was a regular tournament that did not allow FW because, while many of the FWunits have rules intended for regular 40k games, all it takes is one player bringing a way OP unit to ruin it for everybody.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Examples: grot tanks are fine, and nobody is going to have an aneurism over grot tanks. Dkok artillery becoming t7 and 4w with every guardsman addition a wound combined with an aegis defense line for the guardsmen well now that might cause people to have a stroke.

the DKoK arty isn't as bad as it sounds. You can still force it to break at Ld7, and it's going to have at least 1 wound that's always going to be wasted as either the last wound will be a lone guardsmen or a crewless gun. Inflicting even just a couple of wounds can break the gun crew, anything that gets into CC is going to quickly butcher the crew. If you can deal with a couple of Rhino's (effectively T7) you can deal with a DKoK gun.

Rhino's don't have 4+ coversave or 3+ armor save. And you won't force a break test on that unit. How many shots does it take to inflict a wound on the artillery piece (assuming focus fire to avoid the 2++ cover of the infantry) at BS4? At strengths the most prolific at the moment.

At St6 AP4 or worse: 13
At St7 AP4 or worse: 9
At St7 AP3 or better: 6

So to kill a single gun you're looking at 52 St6 shots, 36 St7 shots, and 24 St7 AP3 or less shots. Yeah, make it break sounds really reasonable at that point....

To kill a rhino just off hull points and we'll give them a cover save of 5+:

St6 AP4 or worse: 7 shots per hull point
St7 AP4 or worse: 5 shots per hull point

So you can see it's a bit of difference. And those aren't taking into account the fact that you can actually kill a rhino in a single result, something you can't do to T7 artillery.

Except the issue is not strictly a Forgeworld one. The issue is the new artillery rules and fortifications.

You can do the similar things with standard artillery and a defense line from other books. I expect that it will be addressed at some point.

This thread has beaten the horse dead a number of times.

For me .. Forgeworld speaks to where I am with the hobby. The recent Horus Heresy book is frankly all the reasons I got into this hobby.. 25+ years ago.

Some events will have Forgeworld, others won't, and some will have a mix. That is not changing anytime soon.

@Muhwe

But everyone in favor says they are the same company and work together when designing their FAQ's and rules. There is sarcasm there obviously but most posters in favor have gone to great lengths to show them as a single company with a single vision.

In my opinion it actually is a Forgeworld issue. Artillery in the rest of the game cannot be done on the same scale. Most artillery (in the 3 books it's available out the door) has only 2 wounds. Also note that they don't have the ability to go to ground and then pop back up. And is generally in a rather small unit.

I might be wrong but I believe the only artillery currently in the game is the ork big guz, eldar artillery, and the thunderfire.

In some ways it's similar to my main other issue with forgeworld. Inclusion of special rules that are extremely rare in standard 40k get handed out a lot more frequently by FW. The other notable rule is interceptor.

Basically I'm for Forgeworld. I enjoy forgeworld. But I am against certain elements that will make the game unfun for others (some of the noted artillery) and against creating edition 5.5 where flyers don't exist (due to massive use of interceptor models). Outside of those two issues I say bring it on

Given that the DKoK siege regiment lacks other things from normal IG I don't see a problem with Artillery.

Its really their only source of ordinance besides LRBTs, and they lack mobility as an army so they can have issues in objective missions(IE: 5/6 of missions)


And as far as being OP, Vendettas are WAY more OP then artillery spam. Guess which is in the IG codex

 Hulksmash wrote:
Rhino's don't have 4+ coversave or 3+ armor save.

How are they automatically getting a 4+ cover? Also, only the gun itself has a 3+ save, everything else has a 5+.

And you won't force a break test on that unit. How many shots does it take to inflict a wound on the artillery piece (assuming focus fire to avoid the 2++ cover of the infantry) at BS4?

Why are they automatically getting a 2+ cover?

So to kill a single gun you're looking at 52 St6 shots, 36 St7 shots, and 24 St7 AP3 or less shots. Yeah, make it break sounds really reasonable at that point....

ignoring that the last wound is effectively meaningless (again, as either the gun is dead or the crew are dead), and that you just need to kill 2 crew to force a morale test (if the wounds are all being allocated to the gun, then so much the better)...it doesn't look all that much different from killing a couple of rhino's as you show below.

To kill a rhino just off hull points and we'll give them a cover save of 5+:


St6 AP4 or worse: 7 shots per hull point
St7 AP4 or worse: 5 shots per hull point

So you can see it's a bit of difference.

Right, now lets double that since I did say "a couple" of rhino's, and you're looking at needing 30 S7 shots to kill both through HP's, suddenly not so far off.

And those aren't taking into account the fact that you can actually kill a rhino in a single result, something you can't do to T7 artillery.

And you can't force Ld7 break tests on it either, and the Rhino can reposition if it needs to, as well as being completely immune to S4 attacks.



There's also no reason flyers are going to disappear just because Interceptor suddenly comes into play, you've got some time to engage those platforms before your flyers come on, and between all the damage mitigation most flyers are getting, it's not the hugest deal in the world, they're not going to routinely be scything your flyers down as soon as they come in, on average they may knock off an HP. Flyers against Interceptor are still much better off than an assault unit coming in trying to outflank or the like.

But, if you let someone add three triple sets of Sabres to their IG Blob, you have removed the need for Vendettas (or Hydras for that matter) in the army entirely. And for added fun, if you are trying to make the unit fail morale, the IG player can just drop a Commisar Lord somewhere out there for LD10 on all the key units. Whats more, every Imperial army (and chaos and eldar) can bring this blob of doom to the party, which provides the best AA in the game that also happens to be good at killing anything else out there. The Blob is already a powerful addition to basically every army in the game, but with FW in the mix it comes with 3-9 Sabres too.

See the issue yet?

Unfortunately I don't have the Sabre rules in front of me and never looked at them enough to remember them off the top of my head. That said, if you're investing that much in Ld boosting abilities AA abilities on immobile, static units, you're going to have a lot of issues in many games, and Emperor help you if anything gets into CC with those units.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Rhino's don't have 4+ coversave or 3+ armor save.

How are they automatically getting a 4+ cover? Also, only the gun itself has a 3+ save, everything else has a 5+.

And you won't force a break test on that unit. How many shots does it take to inflict a wound on the artillery piece (assuming focus fire to avoid the 2++ cover of the infantry) at BS4?

Why are they automatically getting a 2+ cover?

So to kill a single gun you're looking at 52 St6 shots, 36 St7 shots, and 24 St7 AP3 or less shots. Yeah, make it break sounds really reasonable at that point....

ignoring that the last wound is effectively meaningless (again, as either the gun is dead or the crew are dead), and that you just need to kill 2 crew to force a morale test (if the wounds are all being allocated to the gun, then so much the better)...it doesn't look all that much different from killing a couple of rhino's as you show below.

To kill a rhino just off hull points and we'll give them a cover save of 5+:

St6 AP4 or worse: 7 shots per hull point
St7 AP4 or worse: 5 shots per hull point

So you can see it's a bit of difference.

Right, now lets double that since I did say "a couple" of rhino's, and you're looking at needing 30 S7 shots to kill both through HP's, suddenly not so far off.

And those aren't taking into account the fact that you can actually kill a rhino in a single result, something you can't do to T7 artillery.

And you can't force Ld7 break tests on it either, and the Rhino can reposition if it needs to, as well as being completely immune to S4 attacks.

There's also no reason flyers are going to disappear just because Interceptor suddenly comes into play, you've got some time to engage those platforms before your flyers come on, and between all the damage mitigation most flyers are getting, it's not the hugest deal in the world, they're not going to routinely be scything your flyers down as soon as they come in, on average they may knock off an HP. Flyers against Interceptor are still much better off than an assault unit coming in trying to outflank or the like.

Parts of your reply show a severe lack of understanding. You first part it was already discussed they are behind a 50pt fortification. Hence 4++ cover. The unit can GtG to get a 2++ for the infantry. They can then be ordered back into the fight by a command squad. I hope this makes sense. I only mentioned the focus fire as that is the best chance to cause wounds on the unit. But reality is that the number of shots required for a morale test go up as you try to kill 2++ infantry. The rest of your post smacks of "yeah, but" and is generally incorrect so I'm going to leave it at that. IG works on synergy.

And though i disagree wtih Phazael quite often regarding his views on balance and the game he does explain the AA thing above. Oh, and most IG invest in leadership bonuses. And immobile weapons are fine since they will do more damage over time and the odds of getting thru their blob to them are extremely low.

Hulksmash wrote:

Parts of your reply show a severe lack of understanding. You first part it was already discussed they are behind a 50pt fortification. Hence 4++ cover. The unit can GtG to get a 2++ for the infantry. They can then be ordered back into the fight by a command squad. I hope this makes sense.

I do understand it, but now we're bringing in other units and capabilities that are increasing the scope of the unit and thus its cost, on top of being situational and far from guaranteed to function as desired, especially on an Ld7 unit. If we're talking about fortifications and Get Back In The Fight, then we're no longer just talking about a 75pt gun, but 175pts (at the minimum assuming naked command squad) of stuff working together, being properly positioned and enemy attacks coming from only certain directions, and relying in large part on Ld7 orders (58% chance of success) to function as you describe.

The rest of your post smacks of "yeah, but" and is generally incorrect so I'm going to leave it at that. IG works on synergy.

Incorrect in what way? Just saying so doesn't make it so, unless you're just trying to wash your hands of the discussion.

And though i disagree wtih Phazael quite often regarding his views on balance and the game he does explain the AA thing above. Oh, and most IG invest in leadership bonuses.

Which is pretty much exclusively 70pt (minimum) targetable T3 5+sv IC's.

And immobile weapons are fine since they will do more damage over time

Assuming they have Line of Sight (if we're talking about direct fire weapons) and aren't being actively engaged, it's a whole lot easier to destroy something that can't move.

and the odds of getting thru their blob to them are extremely low.

You mean aside from being able to play huge games with wound allocation in regards to position, tons of jump infantry/deep striking/etc units and all that sort of thing the game includes?

Yeah, if you're just charging infantry straight at something like that, it's very strong. There's a reason the game has so many other unit types however.

You are already buying the blob (which, incidentally is the single best bubble wrap and close combat unit in the game for the points, bar none) which comes with the command squad. For 50 points you give 60ish models 3+ cover, which is less than a point per model. The Lord Commisar is the cheapest HQ option out there and he gives the blob stubborn (savings of 35 on the one wound guy you would otherwise need) and radiates LD10. Not exactly a huge investment in points. And are you going to tell me that 52 point twin linked las cannons with interceptor are not going to be useful without the fliers?

Mind you I actually have the models to do this and have played around with it: Assuming you do not want an ally (and you really do not need one) you can contest objectives by plopping units down with Vendettas or (if you want to go with even more FW) have a couple Hades drill up under the objectives and mop up whatever the blobasaurus and cheaper than vehicle version Manticore platforms have not taken down. Or hell, just put another blob on the table and call it a day. Have fun chewing through 100 LD10 stubborn guys with 18-23 power axe/fist attacks a turn while getting flashlighted to death, because after turn two you are not going to have anything but infantry thanks to the Sabres. Thats not even getting into all the shennanigans that start if you add some marines to the party.....

TLDR version: Guard are nasty enough in this edition (with or without MEQ pals), but FW turns the nobs up to 11.

Mind you, I like FW for the most part, but the current 40k community has no concept of self restraint or fair play, for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Which is pretty much exclusively 70pt (minimum) targetable T3 5+sv IC's.

Missed this gem. How are you exactly picking out this guy? How many precision shots (let alone S6 ones) are you packing that bypass 3+ cover saves (2+ with a 10 point cloak), a 2+ LOS he can hand off to all of his derps and 5 officer derps he can toss under the bus before you ever get to challenge him? You make it sound like these choices are situational, which they are not. They are absolute staples of IG in the present environment and very powerful in the broader game.

But for sake of argument, lets say you are scared of losing this dude. You can just ally some SM and put a generic librarian with divination on the table and stuff him in with the blob and now they have ATSKNF and can (with default divination) get rerolls to hit with everything. And he comes with a drop pod of TACs you can dump on an out of the way objective, reducing the need for the more vulnerable IG troop options to be your contesters. And you still have the pile of LD10 Sabres being bubble wrapped by all of this crap.

Trust me when I say that this stuff is bad enough without the Sabres involved in the equasion. If Eldar or Necrons had twin linked skyfire/interceptor Lance/Tesla artilery pieces with 4w for 50ish points, you guys would be singing a totally different tune, in all likelyhood. Again, like FW, but for every Tetra, Wraithseer, or Grot Tank, there is a Lucious, Deathwind, or Sabre waiting to bust the game.

 Hulksmash wrote:

In some ways it's similar to my main other issue with forgeworld. Inclusion of special rules that are extremely rare in standard 40k get handed out a lot more frequently by FW. The other notable rule is interceptor.

One theory is that Interceptor is rare now because there haven't been a great deal of 6th ed codexes put out. They rushed to get flyers into the game, but saw no reason to rush flyer defenses in as well. As a result, flyer-based armies are overly powerful, even if this is just a snapshot in time.

Basically I'm for Forgeworld. I enjoy forgeworld. But I am against certain elements that will make the game unfun for others

There's that word again. Unfun? I agree with all your reasoning about why the FW artillery pieces are powerful. I don't see them as any more unfun than necron flyers. They're still guardsmen manning those guns, they still die in assault. Oh, right, we don't see assault armies anymore because of the flyers.

and against creating edition 5.5 where flyers don't exist (due to massive use of interceptor models).

Again, I'm not feeling this argument, especially in conjunction with your other one. On one hand, you want to limit unfun armies. The epitome of the unfun army, to me, is the necron flyerwing. It singlehandedly makes a mockery of any assault-based army. There's models out there that restrict this unfun army, and you want to keep them out of the game because it might yield 5.5 instead of 6.0.

What if we're currently playing 5.5? What if 5.5 is fifth-ed codexes with 6th ed rules? Maybe we're not going to see true 6th ed for a year or more - it took over a year before the 4th ed meta gave way to 5th. If including FW speeds that process, and eliminates unfun flyer armies in the process, why not?

Well Red, perhaps the science fiction game decided to make guns more dominant than guy with pointed stick? (no disrespect intended) And your theory is pure speculation at this point. The only actual hard evidence we have are the unit changes in the main book (Hydras and Fortifications) and the first 6th ed book sporting exactly one unit with skyfire as an expensive option, but no interceptor. Actual evidence suggest that they want the game to be flyier heavy and AA/Assault light. Literally every army has access to meaningful AA options.

Really, the Cron flyer list is not an issue if you stick with book missions, because five derps getting out is not enough to grab objectives and tesla spamming will not chew through an infantry heavy MEQ list fast enough. Its not the flyers that are the issue with that list, its the fact that the Wraiths are so much better than any other equivalent option in the book that is making the army viable at all. I can understand the Frontline guys (and others doing similar things) having issue with the list, because they play a custom mission that has some form of killhammer incorperated into every game and the flyerspam lists take advantage of it. Really, Nids are the only army that is royally screwed by flyers (and not the Cron ones) and their issues are too many to bother with right now, frankly. I honestly find the Eldar Jetbike army way more annoying than flyer lists, because it has most of the advantages with none of the drawbacks of flyers.

 Phazael wrote:
You are already buying the blob (which, incidentally is the single best bubble wrap and close combat unit in the game for the points, bar none) which comes with the command squad. For 50 points you give 60ish models 3+ cover, which is less than a point per model. The Lord Commisar is the cheapest HQ option out there and he gives the blob stubborn (savings of 35 on the one wound guy you would otherwise need) and radiates LD10.

Right, but none of this is really FW related, and if anything gets into CC that Commissar is likely going bye-bye.

Not exactly a huge investment in points. And are you going to tell me that 52 point twin linked las cannons with interceptor are not going to be useful without the fliers?

Again, with respect to Sabres, I can't comment because I don't have their rules in front of me and don't recall them off the top of my head, I can look them up when I get home and see what's up with them then, because honestly I've never looked at them before, they used to just be AV10 "glance it you kill it" weeny things in their own unit.

TLDR version: Guard are nasty enough in this edition (with or without MEQ pals), but FW turns the nobs up to 11.

Honestly, most of this sounds like stuff no worse than what you could accomplish with allies abuse and the like. Again, I'll have to look up the sabre rules, but most of this doesn't even seem related to FW.

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Which is pretty much exclusively 70pt (minimum) targetable T3 5+sv IC's.

Missed this gem. How are you exactly picking out this guy? How many precision shots (let alone S6 ones) are you packing that bypass 3+ cover saves (2+ with a 10 point cloak), a 2+ LOS he can hand off to all of his derps and 5 officer derps he can toss under the bus before you ever get to challenge him? You make it sound like these choices are situational, which they are not. They are absolute staples of IG in the present environment and very powerful in the broader game.

Was primarily referring to CC here. While not as powerful as in previous editions for sure, it's not by any means inconceivable that an enemy assault unit could engage said blob with regularity, and if they can get at the Commissar and kill him (not hard), then the whole thing falls apart.

But for sake of argument, lets say you are scared of losing this dude. You can just ally some SM and put a generic librarian with divination on the table and stuff him in with the blob and now they have ATSKNF and can (with default divination) get rerolls to hit with everything. And he comes with a drop pod of TACs you can dump on an out of the way objective, reducing the need for the more vulnerable IG troop options to be your contesters. And you still have the pile of LD10 Sabres being bubble wrapped by all of this crap.

And relatively little of this is really involving forgeworld except a couple of AA guns it looks like.

Trust me when I say that this stuff is bad enough without the Sabres involved in the equasion. If Eldar or Necrons had twin linked skyfire/interceptor Lance/Tesla artilery pieces with 4w for 50ish points, you guys would be singing a totally different tune, in all likelyhood.

If they're immobile BS3 guns, probably not.

Again, like FW, but for every Tetra, Wraithseer, or Grot Tank, there is a Lucious, Deathwind, or Sabre waiting to bust the game.

I used to be absolutely horrified by the Lucius pod, it was the one thing that FW put out that I really felt was broken. In 6th however, with the introduction of the silly Hull Points rules and the changes to assaults, I really don't have a problem with it anymore as it's likely the only way combat dreads are ever going to do anything of use and actually make it to their targets, in fact I'd say it's almost mandatory for them to have consistent value. Don't remember the Deathwind pod much off the top of my head like the Sabre unfortunately.

edit- and Unfun means a lot of different things for a lot of different people, but I think its fair to say scooping models off the board without even rolling dice while accomplishing exactly nothing in the game. At least when dueling the Jetbike/Flier list, models move around the whole game and you roll some dice. The Sabre spam + Manticore platform army just erases other armies off the table.

 Phazael wrote:
Well Red, perhaps the science fiction game decided to make guns more dominant than guy with pointed stick? (no disrespect intended)

It's a game. There are flying tanks that drop off crazed warriors with power weapons right into close combat. There are units that tunnel through the ground with sharp pointy claws, and others that can teleport right next to you and kill you. The whole bit about "sci fi means guns" is pretty much discounted when the most popular sci-fi series of all time features a sword as it's defining weapon, and arguably the second most popular shows trained colonial marines getting ripped apart by clawed Aliens.

There's nothing inherent in Sci-fi that discounts close combat, as you have so many different ways to rationalize how something got close to your men with a sword. Being able to assault from deep-strike and/or reserve is not based in sci-fi, it's a game design decision (and a poor one, as the example with flamers of tzeentch shows).

Literally every army has access to meaningful AA options.

I'm not 100% up-to-date on what's available to every army, but what do Tyranids have? As an aside, saying 'every army' is incorrect. Every faction might be better. I've got plenty of armies with no AA options. My Nurgle Daemons, for example, are all assault, all ground-pounding.

@Muhwe
But everyone in favor says they are the same company and work together when designing their FAQ's and rules. There is sarcasm there obviously but most posters in favor have gone to great lengths to show them as a single company with a single vision.

Hulksmash - I think you are half right. : )

Most of us in favor make the argument, I think rightly, that they are the same company. I’m pretty sure that they all fall under the same benefit plans, use the same centralized human resources departments, leverage the same marketing, licensing, travel and legal arms of the company. If you follow the money at some level it is all coming from and going to the same pot. So I guess the dispute is where you draw the line on what the “same company” means. Forgeworld and Design Studio are not the “same”. Games Workshop US and Games Workshop UK are not the “same”. Trade Sales and Manufacturing are not the “same”. In the US at one point Games Workshop Midwest was not the same as Games Workshop East and West Coast. But they are all part of the “same” Games Workshop company.

It is absolutely clear given the publication of the recent Forgeworld books, (Horus Hersey, etc.. ) that the Design Studio and Forgeworld staff have some dialogue. Otherwise the book would not have been possible in the time frame it was published. However, I’ll never make the claim that departments or divisions within Games Workshop work closely together or have some grand plan and single vision. That is like claiming 40k is balanced. Heck it is questionable even within the same department how closely Games Workshop works together. My experience is Games Workshop as a company is very compartmentalized, department focused, and routinely proves that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing at times. But, it is not really any different than any experience I have had with any other multi-national large company.

There are plenty of “good” arguments for not allowing Forgeworld at events. Your store doesn’t sell it so it is not allowed in store events. It favors Imperial armies over other codex armies. It’s confusing to sort out which books have the current rules etc .. I get all those.
Forgeworld is not the “same “ company as Games Workshop or Forgeworld messes up the game balance are really non-starters, IMO. People are welcome to have a different one.

Was primarily referring to CC here. While not as powerful as in previous editions for sure, it's not by any means inconceivable that an enemy assault unit could engage said blob with regularity, and if they can get at the Commissar and kill him (not hard), then the whole thing falls apart.



But for sake of argument, lets say you are scared of losing this dude. You can just ally some SM and put a generic librarian with divination on the table and stuff him in with the blob and now they have ATSKNF and can (with default divination) get rerolls to hit with everything. And he comes with a drop pod of TACs you can dump on an out of the way objective, reducing the need for the more vulnerable IG troop options to be your contesters. And you still have the pile of LD10 Sabres being bubble wrapped by all of this crap.
And relatively little of this is really involving forgeworld except a couple of AA guns it looks like.

Right on all fronts, but a couple of exceptions:
First, the Lord Commisar is not easier to get to. Assuming you can just stroll across the table without getting lit up in the first place (and remember you are eating 5d3 flamer hits and a metric crapton of flashlight overwatch on the way in), the Commisar cannot be singled out without challenges or precision strikes (assuming your character is not being fed a random SGT to take him out of play), if he even bothers to close in to base to be eligible for wound allocation. If he even is, well 2+ LOS all day to stick it to one of the 45 red shirts in the unit. I am not sure if you are assuming you can still direct attacks at ICs or something, but sniping out characters in 6th is nigh impossible outside of challenges.

And the issues exist without FW (aside from Intercept on core troops all over the place) making it a billion times worse. If you cannot see the difference in adding twin linking, T7 4w 3+/4+cover Skyfire and Interceptor for a marginal amount of more points makes in this list, well then I am not sure what to say. When you toss some grot tanks in a list in place of warbuggies, it does not make any tangible difference. When I can remove all other las cannons, hydras, and Vendettas from my list and largely still have my bases covered (and all in core troops) and any army that can ally IG (eg all of them but Nids) can do this, you are completely shutting out entire segments of the game (reserves and flyers) without even getting into how these replacement units are practically invincible.

Again, there are balance problems without FW, I am simply stating that unfettered introduction of FW makes them worse.

Phazael -

re: Sabre Platforms

Sure...but I have faith that Forgeworld will address the issue as they have proven to do time and time again with other units. Those Sabre platforms have existed for a long time and prior to 6th edition didn't get a second thought.

So anyone stocking up and buying 9 of them should already know the clock is ticking on the usefulness.

I actually do favor FW but o answer an earlier question. The only apoc scale blast that I can think of in non-apoc units is the Eldar Prince HQ who has an orbital bombardment that can be 6+6".

Phazael wrote:
Right on all fronts, but a couple of exceptions:
First, the Lord Commisar is not easier to get to. Assuming you can just stroll across the table without getting lit up in the first place (and remember you are eating 5d3 flamer hits and a metric crapton of flashlight overwatch on the way in)

I'm not assuming anything of the sort, however I am assuming that something likely can get there in some strength and some softening up of the blob will take place, if a competent opponent with a decent all comers list *really* wants to.

the Commisar cannot be singled out without challenges or precision strikes (assuming your character is not being fed a random SGT to take him out of play), if he even bothers to close in to base to be eligible for wound allocation. If he even is, well 2+ LOS all day to stick it to one of the 45 red shirts in the unit. I am not sure if you are assuming you can still direct attacks at ICs or something, but sniping out characters in 6th is nigh impossible outside of challenges.

Was primarily assuming a challenge. With only S3 and I3, he's really easy to kill given his cost, if he can't manage to put a wound on a Tac Sergeant equivalent with a fist (not uncommon with only S3) or god forbid he's got a Power Maul (seeing more and more of them as they're better than Swords against anything not sporting a 3+sv, including 2+sv units and offer good anti-tank/MC power, and strike at normal init unlike Axes), he's likely done for.

And the issues exist without FW (aside from Intercept on core troops all over the place) making it a billion times worse. If you cannot see the difference in adding twin linking, T7 4w 3+/4+cover Skyfire and Interceptor for a marginal amount of more points makes in this list, well then I am not sure what to say.

Are the Sabre platforms really 4 wounds each? Or is it like 2W guns with 2 1W crewmen? Are they taken as part of the blob or part of the Platoon? I really need to read up on their rules XD

When you toss some grot tanks in a list in place of warbuggies, it does not make any tangible difference. When I can remove all other las cannons, hydras, and Vendettas from my list and largely still have my bases covered (and all in core troops) and any army that can ally IG (eg all of them but Nids) can do this, you are completely shutting out entire segments of the game (reserves and flyers) without even getting into how these replacement units are practically invincible.

This assumes your Interceptors are scything the flyers from the sky with easy and impunity, neither of which the Interceptor platforms I can at least remember off the top of my head while I'm at work will do.

V- Commissar won't take 1st challenge.

Instead of repeating that you need to read the saber rules before discussing, please do so (not intending to be rude).

 RiTides wrote:
V- Commissar won't take 1st challenge.

then his Ld10 goes out the window

Instead of repeating that you need to read the saber rules before discussing, please do so (not intending to be rude).

I was largely engaging the idea that blobs are such surefire way to keep all these platforms, be they Sabres or DKoK artillery or Hydra platforms, so completely safe from harm, and that the crux argument centered around codex available units and allies.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
V- Commissar won't take 1st challenge.

then his Ld10 goes out the window

They'll accept the five first challenges with the Sergeants.

Ah right, derp, I'm slowed. Ok yeah, point.

 Peregrine wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
People should be expected to go look for 6-8 books worth of material somewhere on the internet to learn what someone 'might' bring to a tournament? And it's 'Silly' to say they shouldn't have all that information in their head somehow?

You're right. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect people to go look for 6-8 books worth of material to learn what someone 'might' bring to a tournament, and silly to say they should have that information in their head somehow. I eagerly await your announcement of your new rule that only C:SM may be used in your tournaments.


Also, it took me less than five minutes to find a download for every single FW book, which is about as hard as it was to find a download for every single codex. The "FW is hard to find" argument is just insane.

You have poor logic skills. Trying to infer that not allowing FW means we should not allow regular books is stupid and dramatic, not an argument in favor of FW.

Normal GW codices are on the shelves, generally with store copies, and readily available. FW books aren't.

Kudo's that you found all the illegal pdf's of the FW books. Give yourself a pat on the back. They aren't allowed in my store, the same way I don't allow pirated copies of any other game books.

I'll bow out of the thread now, it's beaten to death, as they usually are. I have my opinion on them, and how they get used at my tournaments. Like I said earlier, the rest is just internet hotair.