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Hello Dakka Dakka,

I'm struggling to even be a challenge to my cousin who plays ig. Every time I play him with my orks, I get destroyed.

army lists that i have used in the past:

ork biker army:

5 squads of 7 bikers
wazzdakka
lootas (10)
big guns
grots

horde:

100+ boyz
lootas
kff big mek

battle wagon rush:

dashofpepper's classic bw rush list

shooty:

2 sag meks
20+ lootas
3 big guns squads
grots



he'll normally run:

straken w/ command squad w/ 4 meltas in a chimera
Vindeta
2-3 russes
hell hound
heavy weapon teams
marbo
vets in a chimera (2x)
bask. (or manticore)

Every game, the same type of thing happens... He shoots his large blast templates, and my models die by the handful. My rolling is pretty horrible, but that should only account for so much.

Any advice?

or important details that i missed?

Restrict LOS, keep things in reserve, I'm not really seeing how your getting smashed up so much with that biker list.

Your 4+ save should keep you alive long enough for the PK's to smash the tanks apart.

Dakkajets are a great addition.
I'm not sure what point levels you're talking about, are you sure he's taking the same amount of points as you?

Other than that, WAAC lists tailored for beating orks will do exactly that most of the time, it comes down to how you play and roll at the end of the day.

chobarba, I will present you with a very different idea. Take Necron Allies.

Necrons and Orks are Allies of Convenience, which means there is very little downside to bringing Necrons as allies.

Take Necron Allies, and for your HQ, bring Imotekh. He is expensive, but he can give you night fighting for the first few turns which can significantly increase the survivability of your Orks that are moving forward under cover of darkness.

Not to mention the fact that some Necron Warriors can destroy those pesky IG vehicles for you

You first two lists have little in the way to deal with mech. Maybe some dakka jets or necrons would help. You can not rely on getting into cc to pop tanks for several reasons against that IG army.

I run a biker army with a gun line. It works well. The main difference is that I use an ADL to make sure my gunline has cover saves.

Also I can imagine that your target prioty may be a little off. Most armies should go for the av14 leman russes then worry about the vendettas, followed by the rest. Orks care not about high strength weapons with low ap, and can not do much against av14.

The IG list does look real strong and orks are not the most competitive army, so it will always be tight when going for the victory. Good luck

Few tips that will help.

When playing against a template heavy list, ALWAYS make sure your spread to max coherency. Even large blasts will only hit a few boyz when spread right, and small blasts should never hit more then 2 boyz.

Use cover to your advantage when you can.


And KFF are still a great help to Orks. Ignoring 1/3 of the wounds from his templates will really add up.

Got any rokkit koptas? Scout them forward first turn into his line and shoot something (not the russes unless you have a rear shot) pop a few chimeras with them if you can. Meanwhile, move everything else up. Get those warbikers to kill the russes and pop the chimeras with your koptas and lootas.

The koptas should be able to eat a good amount of firepower with their jink save and T5 with 2 wounds. If you have 2 or 3 they should pull enough fire to ensure your warbikers can make it into position to charge next turn.

Also, are you spreading your ork boyz out the full 2"? Because that will hurt an ork army more than anything else. If you have good spacing he shouldn't be able to hit more than 8 or 9 boyz at a time per tank.

Other than that, the hellhound will go down quick to loota fire if you want it to die (for the love of god, don't let it get near warbikers, it'll annihilate them) and heavy weapon squads die from a stiff breeze. Your lootas should be able to defang his firepower a bit. If you remember your target priority. Things like the vendetta I wouldn't bother with trying to kill, as you're not really running vehicles. Figure out what hurts your infantry the most, and kill it as soon as possible.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Other than that, WAAC lists tailored for beating orks will do exactly that most of the time.

Oh, come on, this is far from a list tailored to beat orks. Actually, I find the guard player's list rather shabby.

Your guard opponent has put a lot of points into front-end power, but he doesn't have much staying power of his own. He has few units, and, more importantly, he has very few troops choices (so if you're playing to the objectives, you shouldn't be having TOO many problems).

I agree that your bike list is going to be the best here. Turn 1, everything turboboosts forward. Turn 2, everything is in close combat. With 6 units of bikes, each of them containing at least one klaw, all of his vehicles should be toast. The rest of the game is your opponent desperately trying to prevent himself from getting run over by bikes.

I'd take the bike list and throw out everything that isn't bikes (except possibly the lootas, but given that bikes have S5 guns, they're even not THAT required), so that you can either pack it in with more bikes, or so that you can throw in some koptaz.

Otherwise, the only things I can guess at are that you're making mistakes in deployment, or that your opponent has just been rather lucky over these past several games. Without more information, it's hard to say.

Thanks for all the responses,

@TheCrazyCryptek
The necron idea sounds pretty good, i have a few real necron models, and then the rest of the army is composed of sprue crons. i'm sure i'll find something to work, anrakyr the traveler seems REALLY solid. Maybe another option would be to gring tau into my army?

@Ailaros
I would agree with you on the fact that it isn't a list tailored list, but at times it can be a race tailored list. he's also an aggressive guard player, he's not afraid to roll forward and take objectives. Also the points range that we generally play with is about 1500-2000

Things that I’ve noticed from the past few are:
His ability to pie plate my men.
My squads to lose their ld roll (even with the bp).
The bikes also die very easily to his pie plates.
his ability to roll the hit marker on the scatter die.
The fact that the manticore will make its points back every time it shoots.
he'll sometimes bring a valk instead of a vendetta.

No, a 1500 point list that's tailored to beat orks would be

CCS - 4x flamers

2x PCSs each with 4x flamers
4x PISs, each with a flamer and a heavy bolter
2x conscript squads with SiTN

3x hellhounds
3x manticores

THAT's what a list that's been tailored to beat orks looks like. If you're having problems, it's not because your guard opponent is bringing an anti-ork list.

Anyways, if you're losing throngs of guys to large blast templates, then, as has been mentioned, you're not spreading out enough. The minimum number of hits your opponent can score with a large blast template is 3. If your opponent is ever hitting more than 3 models, then it's more or less your fault. Spread out more.

Otherwise, it seems that your opponent is fantastically lucky. If he only ever rolls hits on his scatter die, and never fails to wound, then there's no kind of advice that we can give you, other than to hope that his dice eventually start to fail him.

Kill his troops and he won't be able to contest or capture objectives reliably. Don't be afraid if he rolls forward, that only brings him closer to you.

By the way, it's far from a tailored list, I've learnt quickly that when my opponent properly spaces his orks, the effectiveness of my blast templates goes down to zip. Heck, when my opponent has spread them out properly, I might as well be firing a heavy bolter into the fray.

What Ailaros means by no more than 3 models being hit or dying dying is your bikes. Obviously, it's impossible to spread an ork boy mob out that far and remain useful, but bikes and pull it off easily. You need to spread them to max coherency, and then those pieplates are terrible. also remember you ALWAYS have a +4 smoke cloud save, even in the open. So if you're spreading out those bikes and rolling average on saves, the most he'll kill per blast is 1 or 2 bikes, 3 if he's lucky. Also, when you're moving your bikes around, dont clump them up in a ball. Try deploying them in a line or a J shaped pattern. This means he can only scatter a couple of ways and still hit models. The J shape also makes it harder to kill all the warbikers with one well placed hellhound template. If you deploy them in a ball shaped formation, hel'll always target the center guy, and pretty much be guaranteed a hit.

Other than that, you'l NEED to be agressive. I can't stress that enough. Those bikes need to close in fast so you can toss his tanks into the sun. You need to abuse the heck out of the 2" spread and using wierd formations with your bikes to shaft his templates. If they're closing in quick, he wont have a choice but to shoot the bikes, which should buy your mobz time to get up the field. Normally, you'd want to skirt around people and shoot them to death with bikes, but you won't be able to outdakka IG with bikers. Get in side armor shots with your bikes on his chimeras though, and you should be able to pop them and charge the survivors same turn. Once the vets are gone, the game should be pretty much over.

Also, I dont think you NEED necrons to beat this list. Orks can beat it no problem, you just need to get those bikes in fast and throttle him. Mech iG cannot rally if you're in amongst his lines, especialy against warbikers. You need to make him react to you. Keep him defensive, push him back, and give him nothing easily. He should be fighting for every inch on that table with all the bikers you have, and barely holding the rest against your boyz.

Im also failing to see how your failing so many leadership tests. You do know Ork boyz mobs are fearless when over 11 models right? So he would have to hammer pretty hard to get even 1 mob spread out to have to start taking them.

Thanks for commenting, i'll practice with the given advice.

@ Ailaros
OUCH! i'm really glad he doesn't put that list on the table. I think that i do forget to spread my men out sometimes. his rolling is very lucky and i cant do much about that.


@ kingcracker
when i said that i kept on loosing my ld save, i was referring to my bikes. i lost 2 bike squads to 2 templates because he forced a ld test on my orks and they failed both the normal save and the reroll.

from what i'm seeing, my bikers are the most competitive army list that i mentioned. i need to be aggressive, spread my men out, pray that he misses and try to assault him as soon as possible.

are there any units that i should include with my bikers for a 1500 pt game?
kamandos?
lootas?
warbiggies ?
truck boyz?

Id suggest komandos drop them on any thing that shews your mobs up even if its just a distraction tile they get there.
Its what i did to my brother last time he played ig (5th edition) kept his big guns tied up.

Yea, too bad in 6th Kommandos got the big shaft. Now if you take kommandos and bring them on a table edge, well, they just sit there for an entire turn. Make sure to tell your opponent "your welcome" for the first blood perk




Lootas are always good. I run them in min squads mostly of 3x5. Its cheap for one, they are spread all over the board for two, and three, it takes 3 units at least to try and take them out.

So 1 of 2 things will happen.

Your opponent ignores them and they get to blast open transports.

OR

Your opponent wastes units killing a 75pt unit. So your other units are untouched.


Enjoy.

Whenever a player posts something like this it makes me think of the table and the terrain you're using. You're losing to your cousin all the time, which means you're probably playing with the same assortment of terrain every time, and he's shooting you to death.

That leads me to believe that you don't have a whole lot of area terrain, or barracades, or large LoS blocking terrain.

I have a friend that plays Tau, and he absolutely destroys me whenever I go over to play at his house. It took me awhile to figure out it was because we never had any terrain in the middle of the field! His Tau gunline would just unload on me for the 3 turns it took me to get to Assault! When we played somewhere else with larger ruins, stuff that I could hide behind, etc... suddenly we had much more even games.

Since all these games are against your cousin, it makes me think maybe that is part of the problem?

Your Ork lists that you've been using all sound reasonably solid, so the second thing that comes to mind is that you are choosing the wrong targets to go after first (such as the Russ's with their AV14).

I'm not sure if your list is the problem, I'd love to see / read a Battle Report to give you more help!

Now theres a good idea. Take pics of the battle and walk us through it. That could shine the light on some of the problems your running into

Nob Bikers + Horde /w Big Gunz support.

I would second Lootas. Lootas could do a darn good job of popping those Chimeras. Bring an Aegis Defensive Line for them and not only are they getting Cover Saves, but the Large Blast must be centered over the Aegis Line itself and not the troops. This means you can put a small amount of Lootas B2B with the Aegis, and stack a bunch behind it and reduce how many he can actually hit with a single shot.

Lootas are a given. If you're playing competitive Orks you should always take some Lootas.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
chobarba, I will present you with a very different idea. Take Necron Allies.

Necrons and Orks are Allies of Convenience, which means there is very little downside to bringing Necrons as allies.

Take Necron Allies, and for your HQ, bring Imotekh. He is expensive, but he can give you night fighting for the first few turns which can significantly increase the survivability of your Orks that are moving forward under cover of darkness.

Not to mention the fact that some Necron Warriors can destroy those pesky IG vehicles for you

Have you actually tried this? I've been considering this for a while just haven't picked up the models yet. orks with 3+ cover saves just sounds awesome.

But OP outflanking deff koptas will save you a lot of pain. 3 koptas as units of 1 Outflank and get some good side or rear shots in on his vehicles.

I've been taking Mad Dok Grotsnik and attaching him to the front mob of boyz, and a KFF Big Mek to the second mob, giving the front mob 5+ re-rollable save as they walk across the table and 30 Lootas in the backfield taking out targets at range.

Back on the topic of necron allies...

Current rules debate is if immotekh's lightling strike treats allied units like enemy units. If so he doesn't ally with orks well, if not then he's the most competitive option for an ork army as night fighting + cover saves from cloud of smoke/kff stack.

Without immotekh I would say lord, solar pulse, unit of warriors in a night scythe, and a fa unit either wraiths or scarabs. I can see some other combinations working well such as bikers screening praetorians for cover, or wraiths screening battlewagons. The wraith models are huge and single one easily covers 25% of a wagon's front.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:
I've been taking Mad Dok Grotsnik and attaching him to the front mob of boyz, and a KFF Big Mek to the second mob, giving the front mob 5+ re-rollable save as they walk across the table and 30 Lootas in the backfield taking out targets at range.

It might be because I just woke up, but how are you getting a 5+ rerollable save?

Wow, thanks for all the feedback y'all!

@Murrdox
I'll be sure to post a battle report of the next battle... we played last night, and the game came pretty close... untill 3 of my biker squads lost thier morale along with my warboss on his bike. :/ After that, he just had too much firepower for my the amount of targets i could provide.

@everyone
i might get another game in this weekend. if so i'll try biker army + 3 squads of lootas.
The army list that i brought to the game last night composed of:

warboss on warbike w/ pk

6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
11 grots + rutherd

5 lootas

1498 pts

my Cousin's (approximate) army list was:

straken w/ 4 melta vets in a chimera

vets w/ 3 meltas in a chimera
ig squad w/ auto cannon + grenade launcher
ig squad w/ auto cannon + grenade launcher
ig squad w/ auto cannon + grenade launcher

marbo
10 storm troopers w/ 2 meltas

vindetta
bane wolf

demolisher
russ
manticore

~1500 pts

I lost but it was a lot closer. Some of his vehicles did a little too well and i think the extra lootas can help with that. like i said i'll try 3X5 loota squads
Also there was a lack of terrain in the middle of the board, so that might be a problem.... but then again i already have a 4+ cover save. Something that amazed me was his ability to call an order that made me re-roll my cover save, and he did this several times with his command squad. But we'll see what happens with the increased lootas... if this still isnt working i'll start trying out the ork-cron combo!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
King cracker: i would be getting a 5+ 5++ because of the kff save and the fnp save. which i can use both per wound.

Yea I realized that later once I woke up. I think you saying re rollable is what threw me

Yes, that order is "fire on my target" and is very handy in situations like what he was in. However, you still have a +4 armor save, so as long as the weapon isnt't ap 4 or higher just say you're using your armor save and you're fin. Just remember only infantry get it, not tanks, so that helps a lot.

He runs a tough list, but I think you can beat it.

chobarba wrote:
Wow, thanks for all the feedback y'all!

warboss on warbike w/ pk

6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
11 grots + rutherd

5 lootas

1498 pts

is this a legal list? im only seeing 1 troops choice?

Rejn wrote:

chobarba wrote:
Wow, thanks for all the feedback y'all!

warboss on warbike w/ pk
Wazdakka Gutsmek

6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
6 bikers + nob w/ pk + bp
11 grots + rutherd

5 lootas

1498 pts

is this a legal list? im only seeing 1 troops choice?

Fix'd. That list was missing Wazdakka, but he had already taken his cost into account.

ok, right on, dont have the codex here and i wasnt sure