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 Polonius wrote:


While I agree that many Christians feel that way, it's more the result of sloppy thinking than anything.

Christians believe in one god. i don't believe that no other gods exist (although I'd be lying if I didn't think they were manifestations of one root divine).

Many Christians take the idea that Christ is the only path to salvation as the idea that there are no other belief structures out there. Even the catholic church recognizes the covenant between god and the Jews, for instance.

OTOH, I'm a catholic. I mentioned to my girlfriend that I'll pray to St. Francis for help finding homes for her dogs, and realized that she found that ridiculous. I believe that long dead, and often non-existent, people can help me reach god because my matter is of special interest to them.

Hey Polonius,

I ask this in all sincerity--do you mind expanding on your beliefs? Your post jumped out at me as it's unique--in so much you consider yourself a Catholic but from what I understand--you are not a monotheist? Or are you speaking metaphorically in a pantheist/Spinoza manner--"Subsets of God"? Honestly curious--no trolling

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

I find that fascinating, so our lives are predetermined by some factor or another Fafnir?

If everything happens on the impetus of something that came before it, then ultimately, with the digestion of enough variables, it's possible to predict all the possible outcomes for any action. If such were the case, it would be impossible for free will to exist. There's no guiding force, simply what happened previously, and what happened before that, and so on.

Even if you can predict all my potential decisions I'm still free to MAKE that choice. Or so I think any way, I admit I could be deluding myself.

The latter. If you can tell all the variables involved in any event, you will always know what pushes someone to decide in one thing or another. You don't actually make the choice, you just follow along the set path of all the events leading up to you thinking you're making the choice.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:


While I agree that many Christians feel that way, it's more the result of sloppy thinking than anything.

Christians believe in one god. i don't believe that no other gods exist (although I'd be lying if I didn't think they were manifestations of one root divine).

Many Christians take the idea that Christ is the only path to salvation as the idea that there are no other belief structures out there. Even the catholic church recognizes the covenant between god and the Jews, for instance.

OTOH, I'm a catholic. I mentioned to my girlfriend that I'll pray to St. Francis for help finding homes for her dogs, and realized that she found that ridiculous. I believe that long dead, and often non-existent, people can help me reach god because my matter is of special interest to them.

Hey Polonius,

I ask this in all sincerity--do you mind expanding on your beliefs? Your post jumped out at me as it's unique--in so much you consider yourself a Catholic but from what I understand--you are not a monotheist? Or are you speaking metaphorically in a pantheist/Spinoza manner--"Subsets of God"? Honestly curious--no trolling

I'm a Catholic by upbringing. I decided that I wanted to return to religion a few years back, and went with what I knew. I'm not opposed to the theology, and I like a lot of the stances on issues. I also like the idea of a more living religion that still has some gravitas. Meaning, we can change, but we're not flying by the seat of our pants.

That said, I'm a radical ecumentalist. I feel that nearly any bona fide religious or spiritual view, including atheism, is an equally good way to make sense of the world. I see the Bible, at best, as a divinely inspire work of man, that contains truths in the general but is less useful in the details and the history.

In short, the main thing I take from christianity is the idea of an all loving, all knowing god. In my view, he judges you not by his standards, because we cannot hope to live up to those, but by our own. If you think that being a good shinto is the best way to go through life, he judges you as a shinto.

At their root, all religions attempt to provide moral guidance, make sense of the universe, and provide comfort. God wants us to be moral, wise, and happy. That's the foundation, the rest is just for show.

Interesting and unique (at least around here)--thanks for sharing.

"Radical Ecumentalist" That's a new term to me but it sounds like what I publicly profess with is Unitarian/Universalism. Same concept all paths to the divine are valid ones. All religion is in worship and glory of the same higher power.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm a Catholic by upbringing. I decided that I wanted to return to religion a few years back, and went with what I knew. I'm not opposed to the theology, and I like a lot of the stances on issues. I also like the idea of a more living religion that still has some gravitas. Meaning, we can change, but we're not flying by the seat of our pants.

That said, I'm a radical ecumentalist. I feel that nearly any bona fide religious or spiritual view, including atheism, is an equally good way to make sense of the world. I see the Bible, at best, as a divinely inspire work of man, that contains truths in the general but is less useful in the details and the history.

In short, the main thing I take from christianity is the idea of an all loving, all knowing god. In my view, he judges you not by his standards, because we cannot hope to live up to those, but by our own. If you think that being a good shinto is the best way to go through life, he judges you as a shinto.

At their root, all religions attempt to provide moral guidance, make sense of the universe, and provide comfort. God wants us to be moral, wise, and happy. That's the foundation, the rest is just for show.

Thanks for that, an insightful view extremely well explained.

sebster wrote:I think a lot of it is that informal approval, where nothing says you have to be atheist, but it sure makes it hard to get certain posting when you aren't.
A bit like having to love Jesus to win political office in the US. It isn't strictly needed, and there's always the odd person who bucks the odds and wins office despite not holding to the majority line, but they're very rare.

That's actually a good "mirror comparison".
I suppose it was the same for religion as it was for membership in various organisations such as the Pioneers. Stuff that wasn't strictly enforced, but still seen as a matter of course, and not doing it gave you the stigma of a potential subversive who didn't care for his or her country and the common cause.

Of course it was the Cold War, and both sides kind of violated their constitutions not in wording but in spirit out of fear of "the enemy" - for example when West Germany decreed the so-called "radicals edict", which saw thousands of teachers fired from their jobs or not hired for their political views.

Monster Rain wrote:How sad for eastern Germany.

As a (former) East German, I actually consider myself very fortunate for having been able to analyse the various religions with a critical observer's eye when I got old enough, instead of just being born into it.

Lynata I'd say we didn't just violate our constitution in spirit during the Cold War... see McCarthyism and all sorts of other insane gak.

The idea of God is a horrible one, well to me.

The Christian God would be a being that would be beyond paranoid, and would punish humanity for it's flaws, with the excuse;

"I'm better than you, so you get to die."

He'd be like Hitler, Pol Pot or Stalin, but X1000. He'd be a massive murderer, justified by the excuse 'he's beyond us', kinda like Hitler and his Aryan bull crap. Being omnipotent, he'd stare down on every single being,

If you're omnipotent and omniscient... why do you need to be paranoid?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you're omnipotent and omniscient... why do you need to be paranoid?

The first three commands of the ten commandments come out as: "I'm God, and I'm insecure."

 Lynata wrote:
Of course it was the Cold War, and both sides kind of violated their constitutions not in wording but in spirit out of fear of "the enemy" - for example when West Germany decreed the so-called "radicals edict", which saw thousands of teachers fired from their jobs or not hired for their political views.

I think dicking around with the limits on government is kind of just the way of life everywhere. People will always perceive some kind of pressing need that people will think is more important than stricly following the rules.

As a (former) East German, I actually consider myself very fortunate for having been able to analyse the various religions with a critical observer's eye when I got old enough, instead of just being born into it.

Yeah, that's tough issue, for me. I was never raised with any kind of religious upbringing, and when I went to church it was only because I'd stayed the night at a friend's house. Looking back now, I kind of like the idea of having had some ritual, and some interaction with another social group. Not that I think I ever would have ended up a believer, I might have quite enjoyed sitting through those services with my friends when I was a kid, but it was always as a tourist, looking at what other people did with their Sunday mornings.

I mean, I think ultimately every kid gets to make their own choice, and it's wrong for parents to pressure their kids into any kind of faith, but I don't think taking him to church as a kid is really brainwashing, any more than not exposing him would be.

Of course it was not withour consequneses that the communist didnt allow children of religious parents to study and took the children from parents who disagreed with the regime and gave them to ,,loyal" people.

 blood reaper wrote:
The idea of God is a horrible one, well to me.

The Christian God would be a being that would be beyond paranoid, and would punish humanity for it's flaws, with the excuse;

"I'm better than you, so you get to die."

He'd be like Hitler, Pol Pot or Stalin, but X1000. He'd be a massive murderer, justified by the excuse 'he's beyond us', kinda like Hitler and his Aryan bull crap. Being omnipotent, he'd stare down on every single being,

I think you'll find that, if one is a believer/accepts the idea/call it what you want, pretty much one of the key concepts of the Xtian god is that he isn't like this, that he/she/it/whatever is beyond, possibly incapable (.. cue rock so big argument ) even, of such petty and evil behaviour.

Now you might not think this is possible or even plausible, but surely it behoves one to at least fully understand the definition of what it is you do/don't believe in.

 blood reaper wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you're omnipotent and omniscient... why do you need to be paranoid?

The first three commands of the ten commandments come out as: "I'm God, and I'm insecure."

That's a little bit like saying your boss making you come into work on time is a sign that he's insecure.

At best you can say that 1st commandment is that, "you shall have no other gods before me," but OTOH this was the guy that pulled their ass out of egypt. It's not, like, totally unreasonable that he reminds them who actually has their back.

 Polonius wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
If you're omnipotent and omniscient... why do you need to be paranoid?

The first three commands of the ten commandments come out as: "I'm God, and I'm insecure."

That's a little bit like saying your boss making you come into work on time is a sign that he's insecure.

At best you can say that 1st commandment is that, "you shall have no other gods before me," but OTOH this was the guy that pulled their ass out of egypt. It's not, like, totally unreasonable that he reminds them who actually has their back.

Yeah, but this time, having a god before him will lead to eternal torture, loneliness, etc. I don't think most bosses can do such a thing,and about the whole Egypt thing.....

God effectively murders hundreds of people in Egypt, instead of simply using his powers to remove the group of Jewish slaves from Egypt. Couldn't he have removed them himself, I mean, it does claim he created a planet in six days, so he probably has the power to simply remove a group of people from a country? Then, he leaves them in the Desert.

But no, starving and murdering the innocent Egyptians was a really nice thing to do.

 blood reaper wrote:

Yeah, but this time, having a god before him will lead to eternal torture, loneliness, etc. I don't think most bosses can do such a thing,and about the whole Egypt thing.....

God effectively murders hundreds of people in Egypt, instead of simply using his powers to remove the group of Jewish slaves from Egypt. Couldn't he have removed them himself, I mean, it does claim he created a planet in six days, so he probably has the power to simply remove a group of people from a country?

But no, starving and murdering the innocent Egyptians was a really nice thing to do.

First, don't confuse the 10 commandments, which were the laws given to the Israelite in the old testament, with the idea of salvation or judgment for all people introduced by Jesus in the new testament.

As for egypt, to be fair he did ask nicely at first. Multiple times. I'm not going to debate the morality of god, especially the old testament god. At the time of exodus, he was basically the tribal god of Israel, not the all encompassing, merciful god of Christianity. Back then, people wanted a deity that could kick some ass.

People seem to think that god should be "nice." I don't know why. They also think that despite all of the biblical evidence to the contrary, god should care about our lives on earth. Back in the OT, sure, a lot of the stuff is about temporal advantage. But even that's only for his followers. By the NT, sure, he's a kind, loving, and merciful god... who is really only only interested in your soul.

You're making a pretty common logical step: the idea that by our standards of morality, god is a terrible person. Which is very defensible, except that god isn't a person.

Why not?

I won't just bow down to a being for it's power, God is a mass murderer and monster, and if he did exist, I would not worship him. He'd be the greatest dictator to ever exist, demanding worship or death. Commit a crime against him, burn forever, or live in fear of him.

Just like Hitler, Stalin, etc.

 blood reaper wrote:
Why not?

I won't just bow down to a being for it's power, God is a mass murderer and monster, and if he did exist, I would not worship him. He'd be the greatest dictator to ever exist, demanding worship or death. Commit a crime against him, burn forever, or live in fear of him.

Just like Hitler, Stalin, etc.

You'd have the choice to. Which is one of many, many differences between god and Hitler. God doesn't force you to do anything. The concept of hell as punishment is actually somewhat controversial in modern Christianity, with many theologians thinking that hell is simply death, or what most atheists think happen any way.

So, it's more like, "hey, I created you, I pull the strings. You can join up, and enjoy an eternal afterlife, or you can die."

I mean, sure, god could create a world where nothing bad happens and we all live forever. We would, ironically, then be true slaves.

Heaven would be no better ether, eternal worship doesn't sound like fun, it sounds like a bloated ego, while I see few differences between God and Hitler.

Also, why does God have so much right over his creation? Why exactly does he have complete control over his "children"?

Hitler controlled his people, pulled the strings, offered a happy life, or one that would end horribly.

 blood reaper wrote:
Heaven would be no better ether, eternal worship doesn't sound like fun, it sounds like a bloated ego, while I see few differences between God and Hitler.

I sense a great passion for nuance in you.

Also, why does God have so much right over his creation? Why exactly does he have complete control over his "children"?

Well, how much right does anybody have other something they create? It's a legitimate topic of debate. If I build a robot with consciousness, can I destroy it? I'm not sure why a divine being that created the universe wouldn't have a right to it.

Hitler controlled his people, pulled the strings, offered a happy life, or one that would end horribly.

I am going to warn you up front, that I'm not going to freak out because you keep comparing god to hitler. If your goal is to get a rise out of me, then feel free to stop. If you really can't see any moral or practical difference between the two, than you may want to consider some mental health screening.

You seem to be conflating things. God doesn't kill us. We'd die anyway, right, if there wasn't a god? He's not actively lining us up and killing us. You seem to think that the best god could do is create you and get out of your way, which is exactly what he's done. How should a god act?

 Polonius wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Heaven would be no better ether, eternal worship doesn't sound like fun, it sounds like a bloated ego, while I see few differences between God and Hitler.

I sense a great passion for nuance in you.

Didn't add much to the conversation.

Also, why does God have so much right over his creation? Why exactly does he have complete control over his "children"?

Well, how much right does anybody have other something they create? It's a legitimate topic of debate. If I build a robot with consciousness, can I destroy it? I'm not sure why a divine being that created the universe wouldn't have a right to it.

I never said it didn't, but to simply enforce it's will over it's creation which thinks, has a life and a goal of it's own, is wrong to me.

Hitler controlled his people, pulled the strings, offered a happy life, or one that would end horribly.

I am going to warn you up front, that I'm not going to freak out because you keep comparing god to hitler. If your goal is to get a rise out of me, then feel free to stop. If you really can't see any moral or practical difference between the two, than you may want to consider some mental health screening.

I never expected you to do so, I simply use Hitler as an example of a historical figure that I compare to the Christian or otherwise God.

You seem to be conflating things. God doesn't kill us. We'd die anyway, right, if there wasn't a god? He's not actively lining us up and killing us. You seem to think that the best god could do is create you and get out of your way, which is exactly what he's done. How should a god act?

Not at all.

No I see it as God is a egotistical being, he demands to be worshiped alone and always, or he will in the end punish you for not obeying his every single command, I see that as morally wrong and horrid. And to answer your other question, a god should never act in such a way without judgement or emotion.

Lot's of red, it's kind of a MOD color. Not a hard and fast written rule, but just something to keep in mind.

 d-usa wrote:
Lot's of red, it's kind of a MOD color. Not a hard and fast written rule, but just something to keep in mind.

Has it ever been stated it's a mod colour? If it has I'll change it.

 blood reaper wrote:
I see few differences between God and Hitler.

Hitler being renowned for his attempts to elevate the Jewish people to their position of eminence.

Whilst God, of course, committed suicide in 1945. Because of the Russians.

.. mind you I gather the Orthodox church's hymns are pretty depressing so I guess that can't be ruled out.

I think you need to find a better analogy than Hitler here really, if only on matters of scale, the comparison doesn't really work, to say naught of the spectacular differences in general facial hair grooviness.

Heaven would be no better ether

depends upon how one breathes it in perhaps ?

By definition, surely, Heaven being a perfect paradise would be better no ?

 reds8n wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I see few differences between God and Hitler.

Hitler being renowned for his attempts to elevate the Jewish people to their position of eminence.

Whilst God, of course, committed suicide in 1945. Because of the Russians.

.. mind you I gather the Orthodox church's hymns are pretty depressing so I guess that can't be ruled out.

I think you need to find a better analogy than Hitler here really, if only on matters of scale, the comparison doesn't really work, to say naught of the spectacular differences in general facial hair grooviness.

Not in such a sense. I simply used Hitlers dictator nature and the Nazi Parties supreme control over everything going on in the country at that time as an example of how the Christian god would appear to act.

Heaven would be no better ether

depends upon how one breathes it in perhaps ?

By definition, surely, Heaven being a perfect paradise would be better no ?

The idea of eternal life would not be one I would enjoy, a long one maybe, but constant paradise would become pointless to me in the end.

You really need to work out the quote tags

I simply used Hitlers dictator nature and the Nazi Parties supreme control over everything going on in the country at that time as an example of how the Christian god would appear to act.

yes, we understand that, and, again, it's a terrible analogy that doesn't work. It's like your comparing a brick to the Titanic as they both sank/would sink in the ocean.

but constant paradise would become pointless to me in the end.

No it wouldn't , by definition.

You're claiming that " the thing that can only go up" will go down. That's not the way it works.

If one believes of course.

Yes red is an unwritten rule as being a Mod color. I expect the coming of the Wargod Malfred shortly to unleash exterminatus or at least steal some socks.

 blood reaper wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Lot's of red, it's kind of a MOD color. Not a hard and fast written rule, but just something to keep in mind.

Has it ever been stated it's a mod colour? If it has I'll change it.

I don't know if it ever has. But they use it for "official posts" in a thread, so when people scroll without really reading they will stop if they see red. I have no idea if it is something official, many of us just kind of avoid red as a courtesy.

 reds8n wrote:
You really need to work out the quote tags *

I simply used Hitlers dictator nature and the Nazi Parties supreme control over everything going on in the country at that time as an example of how the Christian god would appear to act.

yes, we understand that, and, again, it's a terrible analogy that doesn't work. It's like your comparing a brick to the Titanic as they both sank/would sink in the ocean.

but constant paradise would become pointless to me in the end.

No it wouldn't , by definition.

You're claiming that " the thing that can only go up" will go down. That's not the way it works.

If one believes of course.

I don't think it's a terrible analogy, I think it's quite fitting, but I could simply use the word dictator, rather than one, while I do believe that constant paradise would become a boring and pointless life style to me, maybe not you.

*Yes I really, really do. Also I changed my red writing to blue.