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I dunno, I guess I just don't get up in arms about certain things that other people do. Like, I don't want the government knowing everything I type on the internet, even though they probably do. I just don't see an issue with showing my ID to some random cop. If they aren't arresting me, who cares, and if they are arresting me, they are going to get my ID anyways.
Drivers Licences are forms of ID, and you are required to have it with you while operating a vehicle.
Not really, it just expedites the process if you get stopped. You must be licensed by the state in order to drive without interference, but not having the physical license on your person is not illegal.
At least not in Illinois or Minnesota.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
nomotog wrote: The cops have never asked for my ID, except for that one time I got a ticket.
I would be quite irate if they asked for the sake of asking. I don't even carry ID a lot of the time.
Really? I find that extremely odd myself. My driver's license, security officer's license and CCW are always on my person unless I'm working out or swimming or something. I can't think of a good reason no to have them
Unless I'm driving (or voting ), I can't think of a reason to have my license. That's really all it's good for.
But, you don't just keep it in your wallet?
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
nomotog wrote: The cops have never asked for my ID, except for that one time I got a ticket.
I would be quite irate if they asked for the sake of asking. I don't even carry ID a lot of the time.
Really? I find that extremely odd myself. My driver's license, security officer's license and CCW are always on my person unless I'm working out or swimming or something. I can't think of a good reason no to have them
Unless I'm driving (or voting ), I can't think of a reason to have my license. That's really all it's good for.
How about body identification in case of an accident, or medical emergency?
That seems like a great reason to carry ID at all times.
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I think the point that is being made by the activists is that Police cannot just stop you for no good reason. Stopping people just to check if someone is a US citizen is unreasonable..I.E the person did nothing wrong. In most states a LEO has to have a reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong, in order to detain a person. If you aren't being detained they cannot constitutionally require your ID. (I'm speaking generally as some states laws may be different as has been pointed out)
I know that there are some states where this isn't the case, but that doesn't mean that it is constitutional.
I guess my biggest problem is how the LEO react when citizens just don't comply to a LEO's request to give up their constitutional rights.
In video after video on youtube you can see how angry and vindictive they get when their attempt to abuse power is disputed..and thank God for phone cams..hopefully enough of these incidents will happen that LEO will get the message they can't abuse their authority whenever they want.
The more of those videos I see the more I distrust LEO and I see how minorities are picked out and harrased and I understand their outrage more and more.
It almost makes me want to get a Law Degree.
GG
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/25 10:39:48
generalgrog wrote: We have kind of touched on this issue but I don't think directly tackled the issue of police "random" check points asking people for their ID's.
I've been watching some of those youtube videos where people are filming the police acting quite badly when U.S. citizens refuse to present their ID when asked. It does raise a few questions:
1) As US citizens we are not required to provide ID unless the police have a "reasonable" suspicion(not sure of terms are right).
2) Police can lie to people to manipulate them. I.E.
Police officer... can I see your ID.
Citezen..Do I have to show you?
Officer.... yes you do........(Lie)
Citizen......what have I done?
Officer.......It doesn't matter let me see your ID Citizen....I'm pretty sure I need to be suspected of commiting a crime
etc..etc..
some of the videos show how vindictive police officers can get when US citizens express their constitutional rights, and also they hate it when they are being filmed.
Here is a video of a guy beaten and tased for no reason. He went to trial and was found not guilty..not sure if he is sueing or not.
another incident of police over reaction..
I don't know the laws on this issue that's why I am posting these here..because I am very disturbed by the seeming lack of respect for US citizens rights.
GG
You proceed from the assumption you don't have to show ID.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
SCOTUS already upheld that AZ police can check for an individual statusin the US........
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
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If German Nazis did stand up:
Knock Knock
"who's there?"
"Ve ask de questions HEER!"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
generalgrog wrote: In video after video on youtube you can see how angry and vindictive they get when their attempt to abuse power is disputed..and thank God for phone cams..hopefully enough of these incidents will happen that LEO will get the message they can't abuse their authority whenever they want.
The more of those videos I see the more I distrust LEO and I see how minorities are picked out and harrased and I understand their outrage more and more.
It almost makes me want to get a Law Degree.
GG
See, I see these videos from the other side of the fence. Generally it's the person making the video getting all up in the cops face and generally making a prick of themselves to prove a point. Surprise surprise, this causes the situation to deteriorate.
"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?"
Jihadin wrote: SCOTUS already upheld that AZ police can check for an individual statusin the US........
After exhausting virtually every other option. It's not like the cops can pull you over for driving while brown and demand proof of citizenship. By the time they are allowed to ask for proof, or "show me your papers" as the have coined it here. The answer is pretty obvious.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
generalgrog wrote: In video after video on youtube you can see how angry and vindictive they get when their attempt to abuse power is disputed..and thank God for phone cams..hopefully enough of these incidents will happen that LEO will get the message they can't abuse their authority whenever they want.
The more of those videos I see the more I distrust LEO and I see how minorities are picked out and harrased and I understand their outrage more and more.
It almost makes me want to get a Law Degree.
GG
See, I see these videos from the other side of the fence. Generally it's the person making the video getting all up in the cops face and generally making a prick of themselves to prove a point. Surprise surprise, this causes the situation to deteriorate.
Exactly. Once again, people with agendas being pricks to Officer Joe Shmo. In the shooting realm we have RKBA activists. These guys will go around open carrying and making a scene in the strange belief this will help the cause of the Second Amendment. Someone beat them with a stick.
"Sir you were doing ten over the limit. I need to see ID and insurance." "JACKBOOTED THUG! NAZI! NAZI JACKBOOTED THUG!" "I hate this job."
This also makes it harder when real abuses occur.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/25 11:47:56
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Jihadin wrote: SCOTUS already upheld that AZ police can check for an individual statusin the US........
After exhausting virtually every other option. It's not like the cops can pull you over for driving while brown and demand proof of citizenship. By the time they are allowed to ask for proof, or "show me your papers" as the have coined it here. The answer is pretty obvious.
Which is what the law (SB1070) stated in the first place.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Kilkrazy wrote: As I understand it, the US, UK and Japan are fairly unusual in that there are no ID papers that citizens are required to carry and produce on demand.
Are US drivers required to carry their licence with them?
When driving yes.
Note: you are required to get your correct name in the US.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
nomotog wrote: The cops have never asked for my ID, except for that one time I got a ticket.
I would be quite irate if they asked for the sake of asking. I don't even carry ID a lot of the time.
Really? I find that extremely odd myself. My driver's license, security officer's license and CCW are always on my person unless I'm working out or swimming or something. I can't think of a good reason no to have them
Unless I'm driving (or voting ), I can't think of a reason to have my license. That's really all it's good for.
But, you don't just keep it in your wallet?
I do, but my ID is the most important thing in my wallet. If I don't need that, I don't need anything else in my wallet.
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
Actual random searches though? "Hi mind if we look through your car or house just for funsies?" I think what you need to have is a due sense of proportion. A cop wanting to know who you are isn't exactly concerning. A cop wanting to go through your stuff without a search warrant should be concerning.
Anyone know how it changes state to state with a pistol permit? I carry in Colorado, so I have a duty to inform officers that I'm armed, present a state photo I.D. (Driver's License usually) and my CCW in the manner least likely to make a rookie nervous if I'm stopped on foot or in a vehicle.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Anyone know how it changes state to state with a pistol permit? I carry in Colorado, so I have a duty to inform officers that I'm armed, present a state photo I.D. (Driver's License usually) and my CCW in the manner least likely to make a rookie nervous if I'm stopped on foot or in a vehicle.
Drivers Licences are forms of ID, and you are required to have it with you while operating a vehicle.
Not really, it just expedites the process if you get stopped. You must be licensed by the state in order to drive without interference, but not having the physical license on your person is not illegal.
At least not in Illinois or Minnesota.
Depends on the state. In Texas driving without your license is a minor infraction. However it will also lead to the police being suspicious and being able to do lots of other things. Plus it helps Dogma the mild mannered Dakkaite from being misidentified as Dogma the raving serial killer they have a warrant out for.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/25 17:41:54
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
I'm not an donkey-cave about it but a cop has to articulate to me a good reason why I should do anything more than tell him/her my name. It's best in a free society to be kind, be polite, and never speak to the police.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
Actual random searches though? "Hi mind if we look through your car or house just for funsies?" I think what you need to have is a due sense of proportion. A cop wanting to know who you are isn't exactly concerning. A cop wanting to go through your stuff without a search warrant should be concerning.
Anyone know how it changes state to state with a pistol permit? I carry in Colorado, so I have a duty to inform officers that I'm armed, present a state photo I.D. (Driver's License usually) and my CCW in the manner least likely to make a rookie nervous if I'm stopped on foot or in a vehicle.
Indeed, and I don't feel that asking for my identification constitutes a search.
And just for those interested, a Cop looking in the window of your vehicle is not a search. And if he sees something through the window that arouses suspicion(such as drug paraphernalia, open bottles of alcohol, etc...) then he will have grounds to search your vehicle.
Its actually the most common reason people get busted. The Cop pulls them over for sliding through a stop sign, he sees an open container, searches the car, and finds the bale of weed under the back seat.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
I'm not an donkey-cave about it but a cop has to articulate to me a good reason why I should do anything more than tell him/her my name. It's best in a free society to be kind, be polite, and never speak to the police.
if he pulls you over for speeding.
Protip if you think he just said "meow" just go with it. Trust me.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Polonius wrote: Remember kids, if you have nothing to hide, why would you object to a search?
Exactly how I feel about it. If a cop asked me for ID, I'd gladly give it to him. In my experience, if you mind your manners and don't act like a donkey-cave, cops are easier on you.
I'm not an donkey-cave about it but a cop has to articulate to me a good reason why I should do anything more than tell him/her my name. It's best in a free society to be kind, be polite, and never speak to the police.
if he pulls you over for speeding.
Protip if you think he just said "meow" just go with it. Trust me.
Frazz my elderly compatriot I drive a 7000lbs truck with a 4:10 rear. I couldn't speed if I wanted to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/25 22:03:56
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
I can see some Dakka members going bat crap crazy when it happens to them. I will so laugh my arse off
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
generalgrog wrote: I think the point that is being made by the activists is that Police cannot just stop you for no good reason. Stopping people just to check if someone is a US citizen is unreasonable..I.E the person did nothing wrong. In most states a LEO has to have a reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong, in order to detain a person.
Is it reasonable to suspect that a brown person driving a car (or being brown) is an illegal immigrant?
I don't think so, but that's the crux of the debate regarding laws akin to the one passed in Arizona.
The more of those videos I see the more I distrust LEO and I see how minorities are picked out and harrased and I understand their outrage more and more.
Never trust anyone, always assume you're being lied to, and make certain you're never in a position where the truth of statement bears on your material state.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
generalgrog wrote: I think the point that is being made by the activists is that Police cannot just stop you for no good reason. Stopping people just to check if someone is a US citizen is unreasonable..I.E the person did nothing wrong. In most states a LEO has to have a reasonable suspicion that you have done something wrong, in order to detain a person.
Is it reasonable to suspect that a brown person driving a car (or being brown) is an illegal immigrant?
I don't think so, but that's the crux of the debate regarding laws akin to the one passed in Arizona.
That's kind of a stretch. I mean I think we agree on the basic issue just not how the law works. A year before 1070 was even proposed a friend of mine on PHX PD told me he suspected a guy of being illegal and after less than 2 blocks of following him pulled him over for failure to signal and hooked him up for DUI. This is the same tactic that will be used under 1070 with varying outcomes because its just plain common police tactics with what is now an infamous law overshadowing it. seatbeklt laws bro, they are evil.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
KalashnikovMarine wrote: When I open carried in AZ, the only time any one would say anything would be some old time commenting on the fact that I was carrying a chief's special.
Or the random scared Californian who immediately asks if you're a Police Officer, and if you have a permit for your gun when you tell them no, and then doesn't believe you when you tell them you don't need a permit in AZ. I actually had one such person call the police and tell them I was threatening people with my firearm. When the dust settled, apparently she thought she had the right because she felt threatened that I was (lawfully) carrying a firearm openly and wasn't a police officer.
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: When I open carried in AZ, the only time any one would say anything would be some old time commenting on the fact that I was carrying a chief's special.
Or the random scared Californian who immediately asks if you're a Police Officer, and if you have a permit for your gun when you tell them no, and then doesn't believe you when you tell them you don't need a permit in AZ. I actually had one such person call the police and tell them I was threatening people with my firearm. When the dust settled, apparently she thought she had the right because she felt threatened that I was (lawfully) carrying a firearm openly and wasn't a police officer.
Californians shouldn't be allowed to leave their home state without passing an IQ test and getting a course on how "reality" works. Course I never had to deal with it because Californians don't stop for anything but gas in Yuma. They just go on their way as quickly as possible.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
And if you're drinkin' well, you know that you're my friend and I say "I think I'll have myself a beer" 
