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So I have an IG list full of heavy weapon teams, and I have an Aegis Defense Line. Trouble is that the HWT, when modeled as intended, can't see over the top of the defense line. Before I bought it, I thought the purpose for the defense line was that stuff could sit behind it, and still shoot, but, as the thing is modeled about 2mm too high, the HWTs don't have LOS past it.

This seems stupid to me, so I'm wondering what's the general consensus on this is. Can HWTs sit behind it and shoot (and be shot), or no?

I never noticed this...that would seem to be the case, that they can't see. I'm going to wait for someone to chime in with an actual answer.

HWT sprue includes all kinds of stuff like ammo crates and such. You can put the other HW guy on top of an ammo box or something, so he gains enough height to see over the ADL.

If he can't see he can't see...
Neither model can see over the wall?

Discuss it with your opponents, in the case of a HWT within an Infantry/Vet Squad, the gun should be able to count as both seeing and being seen.

as long as you make it clear to your opponent that you would also have the HWT count as Visible you should be fine.

Alternatively you could put the spare guy on a 25mm base and put a standing model from an infantry box on the HWT base as your "Spotter" portion of the model(which has the exact same net effect as just agreeing with your opponent to count-as Visible).

Also remember that the actual gun does not need to "see" over the wall, only one of the two guys do.

This is one of the problems with HWTs: they're all kneeling so it's very hard to get LOS with them. I've modelled a few of mine so that the gunner/loader is standing, but if you do it to too much of an extent you will be accused of MFA. It is a bit odd that the army that is supposed to get the most benefit from the ADL can't even use it for its heavy weapons...

Another way around it could be to try and place some low hills behind the ADL, if you have any. Fortifications are placed before other terrain, so unless you roll badly for terrain density, you may be able to get something behind there that will give your HWTs a bit of a boost without losing the cover save. Just a thought.

Polecat wrote:
Also remember that the actual gun does not need to "see" over the wall, only one of the two guys do.

This. From memory even a crouching guardsman is tall enough to have its head over the lower potions of the ADL which is enough for it to shoot and be shot at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheexsta wrote:
This is one of the problems with HWTs: they're all kneeling so it's very hard to get LOS with them. I've modelled a few of mine so that the gunner/loader is standing, but if you do it to too much of an extent you will be accused of MFA. It is a bit odd that the army that is supposed to get the most benefit from the ADL can't even use it for its heavy weapons...

Another way around it could be to try and place some low hills behind the ADL, if you have any. Fortifications are placed before other terrain, so unless you roll badly for terrain density, you may be able to get something behind there that will give your HWTs a bit of a boost without losing the cover save. Just a thought.

LoL what? How is modeling a heavy weapon team standing up MFA? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read tonight

 Cheexsta wrote:
This is one of the problems with HWTs: they're all kneeling so it's very hard to get LOS with them. I've modelled a few of mine so that the gunner/loader is standing, but if you do it to too much of an extent you will be accused of MFA. It is a bit odd that the army that is supposed to get the most benefit from the ADL can't even use it for its heavy weapons..

So does the fact that a HWS box only contains kneeling models mean it is against the rules to model them any other way (ie, standing or lying down).? I'd honestly never considered that before - certainly nobody has ever challenged my standing spotters.

Being tall enough to have a wound allocated to you = MFA.

Yep I hate people.

Hey, modeling the spotter as standing seems a proper conversion to me. Explains why back in the day he was the first to die...

Homer

So ignoring the issue of MFA (standing spotters) for a minute, I always thought that it would make sense if you had a piece of terrain designated as a wall or barricade (orADL), and a model was in base contact with said wall, then you could see and be seen. If you aren't in base contact, normal LOS applies. This would "fix" kneeling models, ratlings, etc; if you want them out of LOS, move them out of base contact. Yes I know this isn't the way it is, but I can dream.

Modeling the spotter as standing would have been a brilliant idea, it's just that I'd already modeled, painted and based all 15 of my HWT before buying the ADL... I never thought this would be a problem. :/ guess I'll have to ask my tournament opponents every game, and then use whatever other terrain I can find on the table if it's not okay. Thanks for all the input, guys. Much appreciated. (EDIT: Lol. This smily ork makes that last sentence look sarcastic.. Not intended.)

 Bausk wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
This is one of the problems with HWTs: they're all kneeling so it's very hard to get LOS with them. I've modelled a few of mine so that the gunner/loader is standing, but if you do it to too much of an extent you will be accused of MFA. It is a bit odd that the army that is supposed to get the most benefit from the ADL can't even use it for its heavy weapons...

Another way around it could be to try and place some low hills behind the ADL, if you have any. Fortifications are placed before other terrain, so unless you roll badly for terrain density, you may be able to get something behind there that will give your HWTs a bit of a boost without losing the cover save. Just a thought.

LoL what? How is modeling a heavy weapon team standing up MFA? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read tonight

If some people believe that modelling a power weapon to get the type you want is MFA, then they'll believe that modelling your HWTs to be standing is also MFA. It's really no different.

That said, my comment was more in reference to the earlier suggestions of putting them on top of stuff to make them taller. I should have made that connection clearer, but the point still stands. Somewhere, someone will complain...

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Modeling the spotter as standing would have been a brilliant idea, it's just that I'd already modeled, painted and based all 15 of my HWT before buying the ADL... I never thought this would be a problem. :/ guess I'll have to ask my tournament opponents every game, and then use whatever other terrain I can find on the table if it's not okay. Thanks for all the input, guys. Much appreciated. (EDIT: Lol. This smily ork makes that last sentence look sarcastic.. Not intended.)

Sounds like someone needs to remodel a few HWTs

You can also try and use some cork board on your bases to simulate the models being on top of rubble etc.

Its slightly thicker then the bases themselves so should give you that last little bit of height you need.

On top of that, its cheap so it won't hurt your wallet at all to re base your army on it.

Here are some links to a few pics I just snapped to show you an example.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/40k%20stuff/photo_1.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/40k%20stuff/photo_2.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/40k%20stuff/photo_3.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m2/Marius_Xerxes/40k%20stuff/photo_4.jpg

EDIT TO ADD: If you are interested in this method, let me know and I can PM you the full details of how to make these. The cork board is just the main piece but there is more to it.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Modeling the spotter as standing would have been a brilliant idea, it's just that I'd already modeled, painted and based all 15 of my HWT before buying the ADL... I never thought this would be a problem. :/ guess I'll have to ask my tournament opponents every game, and then use whatever other terrain I can find on the table if it's not okay. Thanks for all the input, guys. Much appreciated. (EDIT: Lol. This smily ork makes that last sentence look sarcastic.. Not intended.)

Just ask the TO; then every game you just tell the new opponent that the TO is allowing Full visibility to and from the HWTs behind the ADL.

I really doubt the TO would deny the to and from allowance, and having the TO's decision before any of the games will cut back on game prep/remove the surprise should you get an opponent that wants to deny it.

Can I model my Necron Scythes so that the Tesla Destructors are on turrets like the fluff in my Necron codex says...It's not MFA if it says so in my fluff, right? Are how about when I play Eldar? Can I model my War Walkers and Wraithlords to a kneeling position so I can get a cover save from the ADL? They have legs...they can kneel, right?

Aycee

Night Scythe I would say no to, if the model was intended to have it's weapon turret mounted GW would of modeled it that way, that's one of the things they are pretty good with. As for the War Walkers and Wraithlords kneeling, yeah sure, they have legs, theoretically they could kneel. Just remember their own LoS will suffer a little in order to deny your enemy less LoS against them.

I think most people will be fine with playing as if it can see/be seen. As long as you are not seeing then claiming no LOS the way back...

If you claim I have no LOS, then I will claim you can't see me.

This is just gentlemen agreements to make stuff easier as HWT have been released in so many different ways even back to the metal folding chair with the crotch cannon and his 'buddy' being a valid model.

I do wish they would have made a rule for ADL saying any model in BtB can see or something. That is what those little visor holes are. I don't want to get into fights about if my model can see through a 1mm eye slit designed for seeing.

This is all RAI... RAW you are screwed, smash your models with a hammer and start over.

You just need to make sure your spotter is close enough to the wall.

From a kneeling position he should be able to look over the wall fine, if he's fairly close to it.

If nothing else he can see through the slit in the wall, right?

nkelsch wrote:
metal folding chair with the crotch cannon

An extremely succinct description.

Anytime you Model something For an in-game Advantage, that is kind of the definition of
Modeling For Advantage.

Not saying it shouldn't be allowed in some situations, but it is what it is.

Modelling something standing up instead of kneeling comes with its fair share of disadvantages as well as advantages (being able to see over obstacles works both ways)... and ultimately, nobody is going to seriously call foul over it, any more than they will complain if one guy out of 5 in your Space Marine Command Squad isn't kneeling down.

 Cheexsta wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
This is one of the problems with HWTs: they're all kneeling so it's very hard to get LOS with them. I've modelled a few of mine so that the gunner/loader is standing, but if you do it to too much of an extent you will be accused of MFA. It is a bit odd that the army that is supposed to get the most benefit from the ADL can't even use it for its heavy weapons...

Another way around it could be to try and place some low hills behind the ADL, if you have any. Fortifications are placed before other terrain, so unless you roll badly for terrain density, you may be able to get something behind there that will give your HWTs a bit of a boost without losing the cover save. Just a thought.

LoL what? How is modeling a heavy weapon team standing up MFA? That's the most ridiculous thing I've read tonight

If some people believe that modelling a power weapon to get the type you want is MFA, then they'll believe that modelling your HWTs to be standing is also MFA. It's really no different.

That said, my comment was more in reference to the earlier suggestions of putting them on top of stuff to make them taller. I should have made that connection clearer, but the point still stands. Somewhere, someone will complain...

Modeled climbing on more than half an inch of rubble or debris and I'd call that a bit silly. Actually short of modeling things too small (that 28mm model is a MC? really?) or extending barrels on vehicles I generally wouldn't consider MFA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HULK wrote:

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
Modeling the spotter as standing would have been a brilliant idea, it's just that I'd already modeled, painted and based all 15 of my HWT before buying the ADL... I never thought this would be a problem. :/ guess I'll have to ask my tournament opponents every game, and then use whatever other terrain I can find on the table if it's not okay. Thanks for all the input, guys. Much appreciated. (EDIT: Lol. This smily ork makes that last sentence look sarcastic.. Not intended.)

Sounds like someone needs to remodel a few HWTs

Alternativly if you have a set way you use your ADL you could model it on a base that has a firing step.

Lots of good suggestions again. The only one that's viable, however, is making a firing step on the ADL. Not sure if that'd be MFA, and if the TO would accept it. I'll just use it as is for now, and ask the TO if it's acceptable. If it isn't, I'm a bit screwed, but it's not the end of the world. Of course I'd allow my opponents to shoot at the HWTs if it turns out I'm allowed to use the ADL as I intend. Fair is fair.

Thanks again for the plethora of suggestions. Next time I make an army, I'll make sure I limit these mistakes...

Strict RAW - I have been having trouble with this. I play IG as well as against IG.

I have seen others place their 60mm HWT bases leaning on the wall.

I mostly accept that if I place my HWT behind the ADL, I am going to get reduced visibility.

RAI - My opponents and I are forgiving of the kneeling point of view. We play as though they were at standing height.

My biggest headache is people claiming 4+ cover saves from my HWTs that are behind the ADL. I wish they would faq it to be like the old 2" into the area terrain rule.

I've always played this that when in base contact with a low wall, your model can see and be seen, despite how it is modeled.

This accounts for units that would take cover and peep over to shoot. Not all hobby walls are designed specifically with 40k in mind, so they tend to be too big sometimes.

I just model mine with at least one standing figure, well I'm yet to model one with a crouching figure. All my crouching figures are being used as counts as ratlings, figured I better model them of an approprate hieght after all. I don't see why A firing step would be illegal. if you model the ADL with each part touching at least one other piece you are following the RAW for the ADL. Further more Fortifications are placed first so you won't have an issue with trying to fit its base in between other terrain pieces.

I can't believe this is even an issue. The ADL is a defense line, you must assume that the individual model would be taking full advantage of the cover and still shoot over when safe. My HWTs do not have issue with seeing over the low parts or through the vision slits. Any jackass who tells me I can't shoot the HWT over the ADL I would tell to GTFO. I mean really!?

I modeled most of my hWT with a spotter with the binoculars or with some rubble.

My suggestion, don't play people who want to argue stupid points like this.

Another thing to think about. What if I owned some catachan snipers in the prone position, you going to tell me they can't shoot over the ADL. Or are they permanent stuck in gtg mode. If I modeled my snipers prone people scream MFA. But it's ok if GW models it like that?