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I spent the past 5 years getting an education degree with a license to teach HS English. It is VERY difficult to get students to attempt a solid sentence that contains little to no "txt speek". Most English teachers know that there are long hours ahead of them during their career. As a student teacher, I would spend 3 hours every night grading papers, tests, and quizzes. Then I would spend another hour or two preparing for the next day's assignments. Most students today don't care about grammar and spelling because we have things like spell check and grammar check. After graduating from university, I looked at the experience I had accumulated and started putting out resumes for both IT and teaching jobs.
I agree that technology is a major concern with the general lack of reading comprehension, but I also agree that the other issue is the mentality that everyone must go to college. There is no shame in working with your hands, let academia remain the hallowed halls of learning that it used to be.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
There is no shame in working with your hands, let academia remain the hallowed halls of learning that it used to be.
Why can't we do both?
Which is what I do for a living lol.
What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
In college, my first journalism writing instructor was a hard-a$$...definitely a break-you-down-and-build-you-back-up type. But that's the right way to teach it.
I remember in High School the teacher that taught remedial English was fairly hated because his English class was the hardest, and they were supposed to be the worst. The students who made it through though were better then all the others that were in standard, and quite a few of the AP English students when it was all said and done.
I breezed through every English or writing class I ever took in high school and college. I wasn't considered a great writer, I just didn't have to work that hard.
And then I got to law school, where they pay Legal Writing professors less than the rest of the profs simply to get them angry. I do legal writing for a living, and only got a C in that course.
The instructor I mentioned gave me 'C' grades on my first two assignments.
"What? Me? Preposterous!"
Then I finally decided to do it her way and not my way. Turned out my way was sloppy and long-winded. My next assignment ended up being an 'A-' that she shared with the class.
I should add that journalistic writing is a little like a golf swing, in that it doesn't come naturally for most people. Writing succinctly and in an inverted pyramid format runs counter to most people's education and natural instincts. Still, the point remains that there's good writing and bad writing, and the subject needs to be taught that way.
I had a lit prof who gave us weekly quizzes that required us to answer complex questions using no more than three well-written sentences. That might sound easy at first blush, but it was very challenging and truly tested your command of the material. What a great prof.
Then again, I had a communications prof in grad school that combined my short declarative sentences into long run-on sentences to make my papers read more like a scholar's. I ignored her on principle (and fortunately still got an 'A').
There is no shame in working with your hands, let academia remain the hallowed halls of learning that it used to be.
Why can't we do both?
Alfndrate wrote:
Which is what I do for a living lol.
What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
I was really just trying to Archer it, but I work as a carpenter when I can find work, I'm a drone pilot by training, and it seems likely at this point I'll end up in academia if my life path continues.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
If nothing else, they should remind kids every few months that there are three kinds of workers: those that work with their hands, those that work with numbers, and those that work with words.
And then there are those that do all three.
On topic: Yes, most people's language skills are shockingly bad. English isn't even my first language, and mine is better than most native speakers' I know...
Alfndrate wrote: What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
I have an advanced degree and my kids will probably end up going to college. But if they want to pursue another type of career, I'll back them 100%. I just want them to get educated *in their chosen field*, work hard, and be successful and happy.
I've read things recently that said the US has a shortage of skilled workers. There are plenty of factories and shops that want to add staff but can't find people qualified to do the work.
There's no extra credit in life for working at a white-collar job, especially considering how many involve mediocre pay and misery.
I don't think to point of the statement was that there are only jobs with absolute, clearly delineated skill sets i.e. that a person who works with their hands will never use numbers or words, and so on. It was/is a general guideline, not an absolute.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Alfndrate wrote: What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
I have an advanced degree and my kids will probably end up going to college. But if they want to pursue another type of career, I'll back them 100%. I just want them to get educated *in their chosen field*, work hard, and be successful and happy.
I've read things recently that said the US has a shortage of skilled workers. There are plenty of factories and shops that want to add staff but can't find people qualified to do the work.
There's no extra credit in life for working at a white-collar job, especially considering how many involve mediocre pay and misery.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/27 18:19:56
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Grey Templar wrote:I blame incompetent teachers that can't get fired because of the teachers unions.
kronk wrote:There's a HS student that my GF taught whose career goal is to marry a professional basketball player. She doesn't have a fallback plan. She's a senior this year. Her mother thinks her plan is solid and doesn't push her academically...
Well, I certainly hope your GF was fired for be so incompetent that she wasn't able to teach that student anything.
...Because the responsibility for the results lies entirely with the teachers, and never with the students, the parents, or any combination of the three.
Grey Templar wrote:I blame incompetent teachers that can't get fired because of the teachers unions.
kronk wrote:There's a HS student that my GF taught whose career goal is to marry a professional basketball player. She doesn't have a fallback plan. She's a senior this year. Her mother thinks her plan is solid and doesn't push her academically...
Well, I certainly hope your GF was fired for be so incompetent that she wasn't able to teach that student anything.
...Because the responsibility for the results lies entirely with the teachers, and never with the students, the parents, or any combination of the three.
They arn't the only people I blame. I just wrote out a quick answer.
The correct answer is of course everyone.
Teachers are incompetent, Text messaging and increased use of abbreviations, and the failure of parents to push their kids to succeed are all contributing to the problem. Some more then others.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Spellcheckers are helping turn people into lazy illiterates.
The Ancient Egyptians forsaw this problem, after a fashion.
Herodotus recounted an Egyptian folk tale in which Pharoah prayed to his father Ra calling out. "Father Ra, look I have invented irrigation in your honour."
And Ra replied, "well done my son, for now you will feed the land of Egypt and all its people when the Nile floods."
Later Pharoah pleased with himself and the inventiveness of himself and his people came up with some new ideas and called out to Ra.
"Father Ra, look I have invented the wheel in your honour."
And Ra replied, "well done my son, for now your chariots will subjugate the enemies of Egypt."
Pharoah bolstered by the encourafgement rushed off to invent more wonders to progress Egypt. when he had finished he returned to pray to Ra.
"Father Ra, look I have invented heiroglyphics in your honour."
And Ra replied, "my son, you are a fool, for now you teach men to forget."
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Grey Templar wrote:I blame incompetent teachers that can't get fired because of the teachers unions.
kronk wrote:There's a HS student that my GF taught whose career goal is to marry a professional basketball player. She doesn't have a fallback plan. She's a senior this year. Her mother thinks her plan is solid and doesn't push her academically...
Well, I certainly hope your GF was fired for be so incompetent that she wasn't able to teach that student anything.
...Because the responsibility for the results lies entirely with the teachers, and never with the students, the parents, or any combination of the three.
They arn't the only people I blame. I just wrote out a quick answer.
The correct answer is of course everyone.
Teachers are incompetent, Text messaging and increased use of abbreviations, and the failure of parents to push their kids to succeed are all contributing to the problem. Some more then others.
Please justify the incompetent teachers bit. It's a fun boondoggle, but there's little to support that they are more incompetent now than in the past. There's also little justification for the view that text messaging causes reduced English skill or the idea that parents don't push their kids anymore. SAT scores have been falling for almost half a century, if your answers are tied to the current political climate or unjustified and overtly simplistic judgments of an entire profession than that implies that you haven't really thought about this very hard.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Alfndrate wrote: What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
I have an advanced degree and my kids will probably end up going to college. But if they want to pursue another type of career, I'll back them 100%. I just want them to get educated *in their chosen field*, work hard, and be successful and happy.
I've read things recently that said the US has a shortage of skilled workers. There are plenty of factories and shops that want to add staff but can't find people qualified to do the work.
There's no extra credit in life for working at a white-collar job, especially considering how many involve mediocre pay and misery.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
The word "college" can have different definitions, but context makes my usage quite clear.
Replace "college" in that quote with "traditional 4-year academic college or university" if it makes you feel better.
Alfndrate wrote: What I meant by that statement is that we have this mentality in America that everyone must go to college, and so we're shunning other completely viable careers that do not require a college degree. Junior year in high school I was very interested in medicine and I signed up for a class that would give me the ability to be an Emergency Medical Technician. I didn't take the class because they could not find a valid instructor for the course. Had that class occurred, I probably would not have gone to college at that point.
I have an advanced degree and my kids will probably end up going to college. But if they want to pursue another type of career, I'll back them 100%. I just want them to get educated *in their chosen field*, work hard, and be successful and happy.
I've read things recently that said the US has a shortage of skilled workers. There are plenty of factories and shops that want to add staff but can't find people qualified to do the work.
There's no extra credit in life for working at a white-collar job, especially considering how many involve mediocre pay and misery.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
The word "college" can have different definitions, but context makes my usage quite clear.
Replace "college" in that quote with "traditional 4-year academic college or university" if it makes you feel better.
Two year associates granting institutions often still have required classes unrelated to the specific career being pursued. When you state that there are "plenty of factories and shops that want to add staff, but can't find people qualified" you're being disingenuous. The employment crises in American manufacturing is a crisis of higher education. They aren't missing Joe heating and air conditioning repair guy ms. nursing assistant, they're out of chemists and engineers. There are niche industries with a heavy emphasis on tradework learned through apprenticeship or other unique certification programs, but those aren't the source of Americas mismatched employment requirements and labor force. They are a dramatic minority.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/27 18:52:33
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Grey Templar wrote:I blame incompetent teachers that can't get fired because of the teachers unions.
kronk wrote:There's a HS student that my GF taught whose career goal is to marry a professional basketball player. She doesn't have a fallback plan. She's a senior this year. Her mother thinks her plan is solid and doesn't push her academically...
Well, I certainly hope your GF was fired for be so incompetent that she wasn't able to teach that student anything.
...Because the responsibility for the results lies entirely with the teachers, and never with the students, the parents, or any combination of the three.
They arn't the only people I blame. I just wrote out a quick answer.
The correct answer is of course everyone.
Teachers are incompetent, Text messaging and increased use of abbreviations, and the failure of parents to push their kids to succeed are all contributing to the problem. Some more then others.
Please justify the incompetent teachers bit. It's a fun boondoggle, but there's little to support that they are more incompetent now than in the past. There's also little justification for the view that text messaging causes reduced English skill or the idea that parents don't push their kids anymore. SAT scores have been falling for almost half a century, if your answers are tied to the current political climate or unjustified and overtly simplistic judgments of an entire profession than that implies that you haven't really thought about this very hard.
Ok, this is an example from my personal experience and from the experience of personal friends.
There are some teachers that are bad at their job. The reason they are bad can be for many reasons.
They may be a bad person that has no business being around children. As in the case of recent sexual assault cases where the Teachers have not been fired because of the Unions making it almost impossable to fire a teacher.
Then we have teachers that actually cannot teach the material efectively.
Personal example,
I had a Chem teacher. Very well qualified and he knew the material. He had his Doctorate and had worked alot in scientific circles. However, he simply was incompetent at teaching. This was because his speaking skills were utter s***, he would stammer and take long pauses between sentences. It was very difficult to learn the material the way he presented it. Its a darn good thing the textbook was very user friendly or I never would have learned the material and gotten a B in the class.
Now, the school would not be able to fire him as his difficulty could be considered a disability(not sure if he officially had one or not) but he was obviously a bad teacher for the position given his issues. In my world, inability to teach material for any reason should mean the teacher gets booted.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
Yeah, no. We have gotten to the point where certification gained by trade school regulates who is able to work in those fields but tha is not what skilled labor means. No cabinet shop will hire a guy with a piece of paper over a guy with a GED and 15 years of experience. Skilled labor is labor that requires knowledge and experience generally gained through working and validated by a certification process.
Or: I'm not buying what you are selling.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
ACT taker here. I ace'd it (the reading portion specifically, let's not talk about math). On the other hand I was the kid who was reading at a collegiate level in the fifth grade and walked out of my High School English classes because the idiots in there couldn't even chew through The Scarlet Letter in less then a bloody semester.
I fully admit my writing skills decline a bit when posting on a forum compared to when I'm sitting down to write a paper or something but one must be able to communicate clearly.
I concur with Polonius and Shuma on the broadening pool, etc but I'd also like to suggest that we as a culture don't read in the sense of gaining knowledge much any more. Tigerone said it at the very start of the thread, we have more sources of information then ever before. Jumping online to get specific information necessary for a project or task is very different then actually learning or reading to gain knowledge on a subject. So while you have conceivable access to ALL the information available. No exaggeration. You're (being a theoretical student) not actually acquiring that information as knowledge. You use it and then move on. Why learn it when you have instant access to it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shuma there is in fact a pretty sizable trade gap right now. Which is why getting welding certificates can be incredibly lucrative, they had to halt construction on a nuclear power plant in Florida simply because there aren't any qualified welders available.
Here's Mike Rowe speaking to Congree on that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/27 20:06:56
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
Yeah, no. We have gotten to the point where certification gained by trade school regulates who is able to work in those fields but tha is not what skilled labor means. No cabinet shop will hire a guy with a piece of paper over a guy with a GED and 15 years of experience. Skilled labor is labor that requires knowledge and experience generally gained through working and validated by a certification process. Or: I'm not buying what you are selling.
So, certifications gained by trade schools regulate who is able to work in those fields and businesses want skilled laborers but are unwilling to hire based on training certifications or degrees, instead opting to go for people with industry experience. People get that industry experience by being hired. People can not be hired to get experience without certifications or degrees, but the industries don't hire based on certifications or degrees.
I don't think you're even in my store, that made no fething sense.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/27 20:05:32
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Not surprised, half of the people I know are barely literate. Not me though, I had a reading age of 16+ at the age of 6...
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If 40K has Future Rifles, and Future Tanks, and Future Artillery, and Future Airplanes and Future Grenades and Future Bombs, then contextually Future Swords seem somewhat questionable to use, since it means crossing Future Open Space to get Future Shot At.
Polonius wrote:I categorically reject any statement that there is such a thing as too much boob.
Coolyo294 wrote:Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Shuma there is in fact a pretty sizable trade gap right now. Which is why getting welding certificates can be incredibly lucrative, they had to halt construction on a nuclear power plant in Florida simply because there aren't any qualified welders available.
And the portion of the skills gap that involves highly trained and degree requiring fields is over two thirds of the annual 8-12 million unfilled positions. Pretending that this is all community college faire is a bs boondoggle. The U.S. needs more engineers, chemists, and software engineers, not more welders. There are specific fringe industries that don't require a degree, but for every job requiring a welder with experience under an apprenticeship there are going to be one hundred requiring low level engineering or IT professionals.
Pretending otherwise is hoaxy woaxy soccer mom moose hunter hockey bs.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
Yeah, no. We have gotten to the point where certification gained by trade school regulates who is able to work in those fields but tha is not what skilled labor means. No cabinet shop will hire a guy with a piece of paper over a guy with a GED and 15 years of experience. Skilled labor is labor that requires knowledge and experience generally gained through working and validated by a certification process.
Or: I'm not buying what you are selling.
So, certifications gained by trade schools regulate who is able to work in those fields and businesses want skilled laborers but are unwilling to hire based on training certifications or degrees, instead opting to go for people with industry experience. People get that industry experience by being hired. People can not be hired to get experience without certifications or degrees, but the industries don't hire based on certifications or degrees.
I don't think you're even in my store, that made no fething sense.
Language,
And yeah, it makes no sense, but its what happens.
If you have no experiences you can't get the job, but the only way to get the experience is to get the job.
Its a vicious cycle. Your only real option is to wait for the hiring standards to decrease or try and get an internship.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Skilled labor implies training, a degree, or a certification program. Those are generally attained through college.
Yeah, no. We have gotten to the point where certification gained by trade school regulates who is able to work in those fields but tha is not what skilled labor means. No cabinet shop will hire a guy with a piece of paper over a guy with a GED and 15 years of experience. Skilled labor is labor that requires knowledge and experience generally gained through working and validated by a certification process.
Or: I'm not buying what you are selling.
So, certifications gained by trade schools regulate who is able to work in those fields and businesses want skilled laborers but are unwilling to hire based on training certifications or degrees, instead opting to go for people with industry experience. People get that industry experience by being hired. People can not be hired to get experience without certifications or degrees, but the industries don't hire based on certifications or degrees.
I don't think you're even in my store, that made no fething sense.
Language,
And yeah, it makes no sense, but its what happens.
If you have no experiences you can't get the job, but the only way to get the experience is to get the job.
Its a vicious cycle. Your only real option is to wait for the hiring standards to decrease or try and get an internship.
I'm actually in that cycle right now, but that's not an artifact of the skill gap. It probably exacerbates it to an extent, but that's more an artifact of the hirers market in the current economic climate combined with a general disinterest in investing in a transient workforces training.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
True, the current economic situation does make this issue much larger then it is normally.
In a booming market, workers are in demand and hiring standards are lower.
When the economy is in the tank, companies can't afford to waste money on a substandard employee.
And after a depression where even highly qualified people lost their jobs the pool of workers is highly competitive. You can't even compete against the guy thats had 20 years experience working for a major firm. Your only advantage might be that you won't ask for as high a salery.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Much, much more of it is the broadening pool of people taking the SAT. There are huge chunks of the SAT taking population that probably wouldn't have graduated high school 40 years ago.
Additionally there are large parts of the country in which the SAT was the "smart kid" test in that you only took it if you expected to be selective with respect to acceptance letters. This has changed in recent years as the ACT has declined in prestige (for good reason), leading more people to take the SAT.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/27 21:12:14
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Education seems to have become so focused on test taking then actually teaching people what they need to know.
Like here in California. We have the Star test, which is how the state determines funding for schools.
So schools spend tons of time getting their students prepared for the Star exam so the school can keep its funding instead of teaching them what they need to know.
The Star test needs to either be scrapped or should be given at a random intervel so the school doesn't pull this crap.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
No it isn't. Its laziness. My writing has measurably improved since I decided to use message boards as a means of quick self-assessment.
And its not just "kids these days", there are plenty of people of advanced age who are barely literate by any standard that does not turn on being a native speaker.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: ACT taker here. I ace'd it (the reading portion specifically, let's not talk about math). On the other hand I was the kid who was reading at a collegiate level in the fifth grade and walked out of my High School English classes because the idiots in there couldn't even chew through The Scarlet Letter in less then a bloody semester.
I never did much walking out, but I did do a lot of teacher endorsed napping. It made her job easier, and made sure the other kids knew someone could sleep through and get an A.
Also took the ACT, because in Illinois you had to, and the SAT. I don't remember my scores though.
You use it and then move on. Why learn it when you have instant access to it?
This actually gets at a fundamental problem in the way people are educated. We generally teach information, when we should be teaching methodology. Information is available all the time and everywhere, but what varies is the manner in which we engage with that information.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/27 21:51:09
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
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