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I think I've been getting something wrong with my ICs in assault. Here is a sample combat - 10 immortals with lord against 10 seraphim and St. Celest. Everyone is base to base contact.

First of all, am I correct that, when attacking, I use the seraphims weapon skill. It doesn't matter even for a model in base with just St Celest?

Second of all, am I correct that all the wounds inflicted by the immortals could be allocated to St Celest by St Celest's owner if wanted?

Third - and this is the one I'm not sure on - if the lord and celest are in a challenge, does the lord still use the unit's WS to attack? I didn't think so, but I don't see anything in the challenge rules to overturn the usual rule about mixed WS??

1. Yes, you would use the majority Weapon skill.

2. Assuming St C was one of the models in btb in the combat (should be given her init 7, but ya never know), then yes, the owning player gets to choose which of his btb models is 'closest and allocate the wounds to that model. Course, once you pick a model, you must continue with that model until it dies.

3. Lord would attack against St Cs WS 7, not the majority. Treat the challenge as a separate combat.

Course, if it's me, I'm going to accept your challenge with my sgt and let St C whack a bunch of necrons. And if you don't issue a challenge, my sgt is going to issue one.

For the challenge, I don't see any rules that say to treat it as a separate combat. And certainly not that it isn't part of the same unit.

It's not a separate combat and the character is still part of the unit. However, in the challenge, you're not attacking the unit as a whole, you're solely attacking the character.

p63, roll character attacks separately or us a different coloured dice. They do so at their own WS (p24).

The Challenge is resolved at the same time as the rest of the combat (ie, at Init 10, 9, 8, etc). This is certainly implied by the "Combatant Slain" section on p64 which says that the combat is still considered to be ongoing regardless of which Init step the opponent died on; if the Challenge and the rest of the combat were resolved as a separate Assault, this would probably be a redundant rule.

Killjoy00 wrote:
I think I've been getting something wrong with my ICs in assault. Here is a sample combat - 10 immortals with lord against 10 seraphim and St. Celest. Everyone is base to base contact.

First of all, am I correct that, when attacking, I use the seraphims weapon skill. It doesn't matter even for a model in base with just St Celest?

Second of all, am I correct that all the wounds inflicted by the immortals could be allocated to St Celest by St Celest's owner if wanted?

Third - and this is the one I'm not sure on - if the lord and celest are in a challenge, does the lord still use the unit's WS to attack? I didn't think so, but I don't see anything in the challenge rules to overturn the usual rule about mixed WS??

Assuming you are the necron player, yes you use the majority WS of the defender.

Allocating wounds is done exactly the same as shooting, the attacking player chooses a wound from his pool at that Init step for the defender to take/make a save against/make a LoS roll for. In the case of special weapons (power fists, power swords etc) the wounded defender must be in BTB with the model using the weapon or the next closest defending model.

No, only other characters and ICs can allocate if they roll a 6 to hit following the precision strike rule. You can also use this rule to allocate to non-character/IC models that you want dead (I.E power fist wielding grey hunters etc).

A challenge is treated in all respects as a separate combat but its result is added to the total combat resolution. So you use all stats of the models in the challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrian wrote:
It's not a separate combat and the character is still part of the unit. However, in the challenge, you're not attacking the unit as a whole, you're solely attacking the character.

*Re-reads pages 64 and 65*

Oh yeah, its only seperate for the purposes of wound allocation. Nice, so a Captain attacked to a Command squad could use FnP.

Killjoy00 wrote:
For the challenge, I don't see any rules that say to treat it as a separate combat. And certainly not that it isn't part of the same unit.

Key words here are "treat it as", not actually is. We also have the FAQ that spells out that they can only attack and wound each other and that the wounds can not carry over. Sounds like it is treated as a separate combat to me. And yes, while they can only fight and wound each other, once the combat is resolved, any wounds from the challenge are applied to the overall combat standings.

I think it's not a game changer or anything, but if you actually resolve the challenge separately, it can have an effect on things like Pile Ins (Init Pile Ins, and End Of Combat Pile Ins).

 don_mondo wrote:

Killjoy00 wrote:
For the challenge, I don't see any rules that say to treat it as a separate combat. And certainly not that it isn't part of the same unit.

Key words here are "treat it as", not actually is. We also have the FAQ that spells out that they can only attack and wound each other and that the wounds can not carry over. Sounds like it is treated as a separate combat to me. And yes, while they can only fight and wound each other, once the combat is resolved, any wounds from the challenge are applied to the overall combat standings.

It actually does not say 'treat as' and it only specifies that they are only considered to be in BTB with each other, they can only wound each other, LoS cannot be used and their respective units can't allocate wounds to them. Nothing stopping a medic treating his commanders wounds. Nothing stopping the captain from being inspired by a chaplains litanies.

And yet, they can only fight each other. Hence the 'treat as'. Not saying that other things from the unit they actually belong to do not apply. All I'm saying is that Character A is fighting Chacter B, and no one else. So why would you use majority WS?

 don_mondo wrote:
And yet, they can only fight each other. Hence the 'treat as'. Not saying that other things from the unit they actually belong to do not apply. All I'm saying is that Character A is fighting Chacter B, and no one else. So why would you use majority WS?

Its not treated as a different combat, allocation of hits and wounds are the only things mentioned in that respect. You wouldn't use a majority in a challenge or for the unit (if there was one person left aside from the character in the challenge) as they may only strike blows against each other.

So we're saying the same thing, you're just disagreeing with the phrase 'treat as'? Works for me.

 don_mondo wrote:
So we're saying the same thing, you're just disagreeing with the phrase 'treat as'? Works for me.

Just because of the connotations implied by the term. But yes I know we agree on the rule in question.

Let me ask it another way.

Let's say due to casualties, a necron lord is base to base with celest and all the immortals nearby him have been killed so no one is within 2 inches (and somehow.. maybe mss, no sisters are either). However, the immortals and sisters are still there, just not "engaged" with the lord and st celest isn't engaged with the immortals.

Wouldn't the necron lord need a 3 to hit when it is his turn to attack because of the rule of combined WS in a unit?

And if not, specifically what rules quotation would overrule that?

And specifically what rules quotation would overrule that in a challenge?

Killjoy00 wrote:
Let me ask it another way.

Let's say due to casualties, a necron lord is base to base with celest and all the immortals nearby him have been killed so no one is within 2 inches (and somehow.. maybe mss, no sisters are either). However, the immortals and sisters are still there, just not "engaged" with the lord and st celest isn't engaged with the immortals.

Wouldn't the necron lord need a 3 to hit when it is his turn to attack because of the rule of combined WS in a unit?

And if not, specifically what rules quotation would overrule that?

And specifically what rules quotation would overrule that in a challenge?

The lord would use his WS vs the only model he is engaged with. Assuming she is the only one that is engaged with him at his init step (who counts as engaged; page 23 and Majority WS; page 24 of the BRB).

In a challenge models are considered to be in base to base only with each other (page 64, last line in 'Fighting a challenge') and may only strike blows against one another (same page, bolded text of 'outside forces'). As they are only in Base to base with each other they are no longer engaged with the opposing force.

EDIT: Its also worth saying that no matter what, when he is attacking out side of a challenge he uses his WS. not the majority of his unit that is engaged. When he and his unit are defending out side of a challenge, then they use the majority of the unit that is engaged.

I've always gone with you hit with your WS, but defend with the majorities WS. Just means you need to roll with different coloured dice sometimes.

Sam918

 Bausk wrote:



The lord would use his WS vs the only model he is engaged with. Assuming she is the only one that is engaged with him at his init step (who counts as engaged; page 23 and Majority WS; page 24 of the BRB).

I think you are misreading pg. 24.

Pg. 24 states "A few units contain models with different Weapon Skills... Attacks made against such a unit are resolved using the Weapon Skill of the majority of the engaged enemy models."

You don't look at who is engaged with each individual model. So in my example, the Necron Lord is engaged with Saint Celest, but the remaining unit is also engaged. For that moment, you still have to use the majority weapon skill.

Similarly, in a challenge, Celest is still part of a unit with different weapon skills and as long as more of the Sisters are engaged, striking her will take the majority weapon skill.

Killjoy00 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:



The lord would use his WS vs the only model he is engaged with. Assuming she is the only one that is engaged with him at his init step (who counts as engaged; page 23 and Majority WS; page 24 of the BRB).

I think you are misreading pg. 24.

Pg. 24 states "A few units contain models with different Weapon Skills... Attacks made against such a unit are resolved using the Weapon Skill of the majority of the engaged enemy models."

You don't look at who is engaged with each individual model. So in my example, the Necron Lord is engaged with Saint Celest, but the remaining unit is also engaged. For that moment, you still have to use the majority weapon skill.

Similarly, in a challenge, Celest is still part of a unit with different weapon skills and as long as more of the Sisters are engaged, striking her will take the majority weapon skill.

In that very particular situation, the only engaged model was the celest as she was the only model in BTB, or withing 2" of a model that is in BTB, with any of the necrons. You don't use the majority of the whole unit, only those that are engaged at your init step. I read the situation and rules correctly. As the other models in the unit are there but not engaged when the lord is striking blows only the celests WS is considered as she is the only one engaged. Unless the immortals and the Battle sisters are engaged with each other still, then you would count them as they too are engaged.

In hindsight it might have helped your situation if you specified if they (the battle sisters and immortals) were engaged with each other as the way you phrased it initially it was not stated that they were engaged at all.

Fair enough. Here is what I mean.

A mixed combat...

due to casaulties, no one is near the lord or celest. But there are sisters and immortals who were part of the unit with the lord and celest at the beginning of the combat currently engaged with sisters. None of them happen to be within 2 inches of celest or lord right now.

You still would use the majority weapon skill. You don't get to use Celest's weapon skill because Celest is the only model the Lord is engaged with... you have to look at who the unit is engaged with.

And due to the challenge rules (only in btb with each other), the Lord and Celestine are engaged with each other and no other models are engaged with either of them. So each of them fights using the WS of the characters actually involved in the challenge. The ONLY contribution of squads they are attached to to their combat is if they get rerolls from the cheering section.

But as I just pointed out, the question isn't what THE MODEL is engaged with - the question is what the UNIT is engaged with.

So there are two situations.

1. There's a challenge and the rest of the unit is also engaged. In this case, the challengers have to use majority weapon skill.

2. There's a challenge and the rest of the unit isn't engaged. In this case, the models in the challenge represent the "majority weapon skill" of engaged models and therefore that is the weapon skill used.

We're just going to have to disagree.

Killjoy00 wrote:
But as I just pointed out, the question isn't what THE MODEL is engaged with - the question is what the UNIT is engaged with.

So there are two situations.

1. There's a challenge and the rest of the unit is also engaged. In this case, the challengers have to use majority weapon skill.

2. There's a challenge and the rest of the unit isn't engaged. In this case, the models in the challenge represent the "majority weapon skill" of engaged models and therefore that is the weapon skill used.

They can't strike blows against the characters, opposing unit engaged with them. The characters are only in BTB with each other and can't attack anything else, not engaged with the opposing unit. Rereading the rules for engaged (Page23) and multiple WS values (Page 24) its easy to interpret that you use only those engaged with the model that is attacking. Other wise a challenge would be affected by the skill of opponents not attacking or defending against the attacking model, which is wrong. Even if it isnt the case I'd still play it that way for challenges.

I guess this is relevant question to post here:
Different toughness values, the same question as above.

t6 character, t4 rest of squad.
Does a challenger use t6?

In a challenge it just mentions allocating wounds. That is you generate wounds as normal, that is by using joint WS and toughness of the defender.
Then the special part of the challenge just say the wounds generated can not be allocated to a different model. The point being a challenge is just a special way to allocate wounds not a special way to roll wounds.

Yes, the character's T6 is used for Wounds against him (which can only come from the challenger).

Snapshot wrote:
Yes, the character's T6 is used for Wounds against him (which can only come from the challenger).

OK so you are on that side of the fence then.

It doesn't say treat the characters as separate units. The rules in combat are clear that you use the 'enemy units toughness' and 'enemy units ws', when hitting and generating wounds.
How do you allocate wounds? Well now the challenge rules cover this nicely, which we can agree on.

Where does it say to roll separately as if they were separate units from their original squads? It doesn't mention rolling to wound, only allocating wounds.
If they were treated as separated units, why would it even mention allocating wounds?

I think the answer hinges on whether the challenge models are considered "engaged foe" per Multiple Toughness Values (p25). Since the non-challengers can't attack the challengers, and vice versa, I don't think they are engaged, so the Toughness value of the challengers is not relevant to wound determination.

Agreed. In a challenge, those models are only engaged with each other, and only their own stats are relevant. Outside the challenge, majority WS and T apply.

But once again, you don't test for engaged on a model by model basis for the purposes of majority WS and T. The rules for majority WS and T tell you to look at the unit.

A model in a challenge is still part of his unit. If that unit is engaged in combat, then you have to use the majority T and WS when he is attacked.

Killjoy00 wrote:
But once again, you don't test for engaged on a model by model basis for the purposes of majority WS and T. The rules for majority WS and T tell you to look at the unit.

A model in a challenge is still part of his unit. If that unit is engaged in combat, then you have to use the majority T and WS when he is attacked.

I think I have to agree with you that it is not clear, and the FAQ does not help.