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 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

Thing is, it is perfectly possible to play good looking (recently turned ) renegades by using the normal tactical squad box and perhaps adding a chaosstar or something.
Playing the "insane nutters marinated in the raw stuff of chaos for centuries" kind of spacemarines currently takes some extensive resculpting, which often still looks inferior to a miniature
which was designed to look that way from scratch. Add the low quality of most current csm boxes ( lack of detail, ugly poses, bad cast quality )and it imo
becomes quite apparent that a redesign was, or still is, in order.

Perhaps the best result would be a relatively plain, redesigned csm box ( the DV armourdesign and better quality and poses but without the extra teeth, eyes and daemonflesh ) and some kind of upgrade set like the Black Templars/ Dark Angels have.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

That is not the old dreadnought, of course you can still use your dreadnought though as the fluff does say that not all of them have converted down the path far enough yet to become corrupted and mutated yet.

My main issue is with those wanting pure renegade armies. Not a legion army that wants to look cohesive.

As for not playing the Chaos Codex, they split it into two. You know, since they used to be a cohesive thing, with daemons and daemon engines being right there with mutated marines and your standard chaos space marine, where you could take mutations on your lords and aspiring champions..Good times, glad they are bringing them back.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

The problem is that the options that they prefer show that they do not want chaos, they do not want chaos bits, they do not want newer chaos weapons but instead to simply add more spikes to everything from the marine dex.

It is not an insult.

It is not saying they are inferior.

If they say they prefer chaos without chaos, they would best be suited to using C:SM or another space marine codex with their proxy army.

So thousand sons rubric marines are not true chaos?????

They're not mutilated enough, the fluff would suggest it's not necessary.

Not everything needs to be mutated, which I never said once in my posts, though as noted by fluff before they became dust they were horrendously mutated.

However that does not mean that Sorcerers cannot be mutated, despite the Rubric of Ahriman.

But if you just want Corrupted Storm Talons, and Corrupted looking dreadnoughts that are the exact same as C:SM, why take chaos at all?

Because I like thousand sons maybe. But if you dislike non totally chaos armies, why not just play deamons.?

How do these new sculpts fit into a thousand sons army.? Where as the old dreads do
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_DREADNOUGHTS_AND_WALKERS/THOUSAND-SONS-DREADNOUGHT.html

That is not the old dreadnought,

Well being as the hellbrute is the new dreadnought. That is now the old dreadnought

loki old fart wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

There's always that option of putting spikes and skulls on your space marines, painting them a different color, and using the actual Space Marine Codex with your counts as renegade army. Because that's what it really sounds like you want.

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

Renegades are just "Marines gone BAAAAAD", there's really no difference for them. The poster above wants a corrupted dreadnought, a warped storm talon...okay? Just use the Space Marine codex then, because you can just use that stuff and use the power of "counts-as".

Ailaros wrote:

As for "spiky marines", I actually liked that motif. I mean, CSM ARE SM, that have just changed sides. In my mind, the two model ranges should actually look rather similar to each other, like how SW models are different, but still pretty similar to codex marines. The same basic thing with a little flare or a single theme to make them distinct is great.

No, Renegades are Space Marines that have just changed sides. Chaos Space Marines are marines that have pledged themselves to dark gods in return for power. They've given up their humanity for glory. Also again your line of thinking is why the 4th edition Gavdex sucked so hard. Now they're changing it, and for the better.

Which is much better than now. The new models seem to have little resemblance with their SM counterparts, and this is actually one of my chief complaints. It's hard to tell that they're wearing power armor, rather than just some generic heavy suit of plate mail. I look at the lord and I don't see a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I see a sword with a bunch of runes on it and some half-flesh, half-metal something that vaguely resembles a pistol. They're not chaos SPACE MARINES, they're CHAOS, with some vague overtones to a space marine army. Instead of crazy hellbrute, they should have had a corrupted dreadnought. Instead of some crazy dragon thing, they should have had a corrupted storm talon. Instead of a bunch of crazy demon warp engine things, well, you get the point.

Read Slaves to Darkness and you'll realize what true Chaos is. And yes they are still Space Marines, but only in origin. You're right, they've definitely evolved past then, and they are something entirely different. But breaking it down, they're still Space Marines. Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

And I do plan on playing a CHAOS Space Marine army with Chaos Daemons as allies, since that's true Chaos. You guys aren't really grasping the idea that if you worship a Chaos power, you become warped both mentally and physically. You don't just add a couple of spikes to your armor when you live in a completely alternate, insane dimension for thousands of years.

If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex while true Chaos players move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.

Having some things that are completely different than SM is fine (obliterators are tastefully done, for example), but CSM really doesn't make sense without the SM. The new models look just too different.

And then you return to the world of aesthetics. I think that spikey marines are way, way better than the bone-in-the-beard, tentacles everywhere, horny marines. It added content while muddling the content over all. It added detail while losing subtlety. I don't know what I'm looking at anymore, and not in a good way.

These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.
Well get this, Chaos is not "badass", it is disturbing. Watch some creepy/mindblowing movies like Eraserhead or Evil Dead 2, and you'll be in a better mindset of evil than you would if you watched Transformers 3.

If you want that, play counts-as Space Marines using the Blood Angels book since that's what you're looking for.

kb305 wrote:
because it doesnt look good and it's annoying to build and even more annoying to paint. that dark apostle is a good example... Just look at that thing.. i think i would rather jab a knife in my eye than build/paint that. I feel sorry for the pro painters they pay to paint their stuff.

Even worse look at the 360 of that new aspiring champion. he doesnt even have any range of motion on his left shoulder because his shoulder bling is locked into his backpack. GW is so dead set on stuffing all this crapy looking detail everywhere the models look like they cant even move anymore.

i think the only ones impressed are the 10-12 year olds. they see all the bling and go OMG SO COOL MOMMY BUY IT FOR ME. then they go home spend an hour dumping plastic glue all over everything before giving up and going back to playing video games.

They should leave it up to the modeler. if i feel something needs more details i can add free hand/decals or i can just glue on THE EXTRA BITS THEY INCLUDE IN THE KITS.

No, people who ONLY PAINT will enjoy painting these models, and plenty of people will like them, even if personally they're not my thing. That's my only point. They won't have to spend hours modelling on the extra details and pose, they just get it out of the box. Only the veteran modellers that have been used to one thing and can't adjust, or feel entitled that GW should cater only to them, will whine about it. And yes they want kids to buy it, it's a starter set after all.

and that hellbrute you posted... i hope you realize the guy who painted that probably spent 16-24 hours just painting that OSL and free hand on the upper plates. He also probably charged 1000 or more just for that paint job.

I don't think he charged that much, but yes I do in fact realize that. My intention was only to point out that the GW paintjobs make the models look worse than they should.

I SHUDDER TO THINK WHAT EVEN A BASIC TACTICAL MARINE WILL LOOK LIKE WHEN GW DECIDES TO REDO THEM. Im guessing 16-24 imperial eagles per model.

edit: oh and no less than 34 purity seals

These are miniatures. The fact is, a lot of extra little details are what make them look good on the tabletop. It creates an optical illusion that you are looking into a smaller world. That is the way GW has always operated, and how they will continue to operate.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 loki old fart wrote:

There are some posters on here, suggesting to other players. That if they're not happy with the new models, to use the spacemarine codex.
As if their vision of a chaos army is somehow inferior, I.E. just renegades.

I would suggest that if they require malformed models to feel chaotic, That they play chaos deamons and take some chaos marines as allies.

Now lets all be nice to each other.

I do play Chaos marines and take Daemons as allies, does that count?

I agree with Vladsimpaler on this point. The Original legions, and those who have truly given themselves over to chaos, are often warped and possessed by chaos, especially their champions and lords. The new models (in their rules at least) are in many cases, very close to what has been described in the Word Bearers books, The Graham Mcneill description of Iron Warriors, and plenty of other places. Word Bearers people should be happy. Iron Warriors people should be happy. As for the other legions, hopefully when the book comes out and gets played a bit they get a rules upgrade as well. I really don't think Thousand Sons are so bad now. As for kits, there is a whole world of aftermarket parts you can use for them, as well as forgeworld stuff, and all the sorcerer kits are decent.

Really now, do you understand how pissed the public would be if they came out with, oh lets say 'chaos land raider crusader with spikes' and 'stormtalon with spikes' and that was it? They already have 5 variants of space marine codexes out there and you want more? Honestly? The book will already have CSM troops, tanks, landraider and havocs with flakk missiles.

The BA and SW codices represent marines that are partly feral and bloodthirsty, you have death company, you have space wolves that are nasty, so both of these books can easily represent some renegade marines that have turned from the emperor and are doing their own thing or even doing something evil. It's a perfectly normal thing to use those books to represent renegades.

If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

Actually, GW fluff states only that some of the Nightlords are free of mutation. Others are happily following their daemonprince leaders.
There is also nothing wrong with wanting to play evil spacemarines. Sadly the lack of some much needed updates forces everyone, renegade player or legion player, to play ugly spacemarines instead.

The simple fact is the Gav-dex failed to represent renegades or legions properly. If this new codex and miniatures are guilty of anything it is for emphasizing the greater extremes of those exposed to the warp, over everything else with its new vehicles. I think generally that's a good thing because it emphasizes the unique character of "chaos" instead of making them Imperials with less. There is also a scalability in showing the progression into corruption for the more rank and file. I'm just happy that the chaos miniatures are moving towards looking like their art.

I'm not even talking about renegades, here, though. I also think the red corsair's ultramarines with X's painted over their aquillas is lame.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

But the current codex is what you're talking about. A khorne berzerker is a space marine with more interesting armor, better stats, and some really interesting fluff. They're the chocolate milk to regular milk.

The new CSM are more comparing chocolate milk to floor varnish. Yes, they're both brown-colored liquids, but that's about where the comparison ends. You can't see how chocolate milk succame to evil influences and became Minwax. There's just no continuity.

They went from something that was a corrupted and twisted version of something else to something that was a distant cousin to somethings before exploding in an orgy of unecessary horny outgrowths and chotchkeys.

kb305 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
If you like renegades, keep playing with your bland-ass 4th edition Gavdex "while true Chaos players"? move onto the 6th edition book and have a great time watching their champions gain chaotic attributes and mutations.



These posts always remind me of people who afraid to go outside the shell of what they currently know. This is of course a generalization, but these kinds of people want "badass" space marines, who have horns and spikes EVERYWHERE because that's COOOOOL.



REALLY ???

and what about nightlords? GWs own fluff states that they are free of mutation and shun allying with demons.

maybe some people just want to play evil space marines? and i cant say that i blame them since the new raptors and DV chosen are the best looking of the bunch.

GW made these options, they should atleast support them.

My point exactly, well said

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm not even talking about renegades, here, though. I also think the red corsair's ultramarines with X's painted over their aquillas is lame.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Kind of like adding chocolate to milk: It's an entirely different color and taste, but you still call it chocolate milk since you acknowledge what it originally was.

But the current codex is what you're talking about. A khorne berzerker is a space marine with more interesting armor, better stats, and some really interesting fluff. They're the chocolate milk to regular milk.

The new CSM are more comparing chocolate milk to floor varnish. Yes, they're both brown-colored liquids, but that's about where the comparison ends. You can't see how chocolate milk succame to evil influences and became Minwax. There's just no continuity.

They went from something that was a corrupted and twisted version of something else to something that was a distant cousin to somethings before exploding in an orgy of unecessary horny outgrowths and chotchkeys.

Now we're getting into the game as opposed to the art and that's not where I was going with this at all. In terms of art direction, the new Chaos marines (and from this point on, when I refer to Chaos marines I will be referring to the organic, disturbing Chosen, whereas when I refer to renegade I will be referring to the spikey "marines gone baaaad" Marines) are much more in line with the background. Granted, so are the miniatures.

Chaos Space Marines are corrupted, twisted parodies of their former selves, that's what makes them interesting. Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines? They barely hold a resemblance to their former selves, but they're still known as Marines.

Want to know why?

It's because they were originally Space Marines. So yes they may look different. Yes their armor has taken on a new appearance (this is called Chaos Power Armor. Read the new 6th edition codex and it will explain that a lot of the armor has been twisted by the warp which supports my point).


Though at the end of the day, you have no control over how I make my marines, nor do I have the same power over you. You play with your spiked marines, I'll play with my mutated ones. I just feel that mutated makes more sense in the terms of Chaos whereas your interpretation of spiked marines is not Chaotic, it is simply renegade and evil.

@Loki Old Fart, you'll notice that the post above yours by Kingdeath refutes the point about the Night Lords. Also Night Lords who don't give themselves over to a Chaos deity are simply Renegades, not Chaos Space Marines. You know what I mean?

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

 Ailaros wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger? An aspiring champion of khorne isn't going to complain if he suddenly sprouts stronger, hooved legs that enable him to get into battle faster and fight on harder.

Also they all had horns before with all the horned helmets, so actual horns aren't exactly new.

The only thing that would count as a writhing tentacle monster is a spawn, and of course they aren't Space marines anymore at that point. Your going a bit farther into hyperbole now.

You also have an obsession with tentacles, there's far more mutations out there.

Vladsimpaler
Though at the end of the day, you have no control over how I make my marines, nor do I have the same power over you. You play with your spiked marines, I'll play with my mutated ones. I just feel that mutated makes more sense in the terms of Chaos whereas your interpretation of spiked marines is not Chaotic, it is simply renegade and evil.
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Fair enough
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Vladsimpaler
@Loki Old Fart, you'll notice that the post above yours by Kingdeath refutes the point about the Night Lords. Also Night Lords who don't give themselves over to a Chaos deity are simply Renegades, not Chaos Space Marines. You know what I mean?
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D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F

@Vladsimpaler
The reason I posted in this thread, was because you put yourself on a pedestal, and started talking down to other posters. Whose point of view is as valid as yours.

You know what I mean? remember rule number 1 Be polite

 Ailaros wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Do you have a problem with Possessed Marines?

No, nor do I have problems with obliterators.

My problem is that now everybody is a horny mutant. They're ALL going posessed. You can't be an aspiring champion without at least three tentacles. You can't be chosen without a bajillion chotchkeys (and some tentacles or random horns). Writhing tentacle monsters barely contained in something that vaguely approximates power armor is only one facet of what it means to be a chaos space marine. You wouldn't know it by looking at the new models.

Haha well luckily the only horny mutants are those of the Slaaneshi variety so you should be fine with any of the other Big 3 plus any other random gods out there. ; )

Also, let's get down to business now that I understand that your problem is with the "basic" Chaos Marine. Again for the sake of argument I'm assuming that you are talking about a "Chaos" Space Marine, not a renegade Marine that is doing his own thing.

As a preface:
Ever since 1988 (Slaves to Darkness), Champions have served their Chaos deity of choice. They are given a Mark of their god, and their patron deity will bless them with Chaotic Attributes, or in this codex, let's call it Gift of Mutation, since that's basically the same thing. The end goal of a Champion (or an Aspiring Champion) is to become a Daemon Prince. That's the apotheosis, that's the ultimate acquisition of immortality since you are now a Daemon.
Daemons are mutated and twisted in their own way, so it makes sense that as a Champion accomplishes more, they slowly become more and more daemonic, disgusting, and disturbed.

Also the reason for the overabundance of horns and tentacles is because GW sculptors don't have a lot of variety. Again, I really do encourage you to read through Slaves to Darkness, it's pretty enlightening as there is a ton of different mutations, not just hurrr tentacles.

Chosen, as in the "chosen" of a particular god. This means that the god is keeping an eye on said warrior, and these guys could certainly become Daemon Princes.

The overarching idea is that as a Chaos warrior (not necessarily Fantasy, just a generic term) accomplishes more, their patron deity rewards them with more power. However these rewards are mutations most often.

This is why it makes sense for Chaos Space Marines to have mutations.

TL;DR:
Chaos Space Marines should be mutated since they worship a Chaos power and the ultimate goal is to become a Daemon Prince and of course power.
Renegades should not be mutated since they don't really worship Chaos, their ultimate goal is power, not necessarily Daemonhood.
Read the above.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how adding all that detail makes these models look more "chaosy". It just seems to clutter up the models. I think they could have done a lot more with less. you know, less is more and all that.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

You can argue all you want about how the models look more like "Chaos" but nobody should be forced to just take that much detail if they didn't want it. The way they've gone, there is literally no middle ground. You've either got regular marines, or SUPER CHAOS EXTREME MARINES. And of course, the people stuck in the middle are going to be mad.

What I'm trying to say is that they need to leave all the crazy chaos bitz and spikes as OPTIONAL, not molded onto the model where they're almost impossible to remove.

Also, what about a guy who wanted to do night lords or alpha legion? Aren't both of those forces supposed to be almost completely free of mutation? Other than just buying regular space marine kits (which wouldn't fit at all) how are they supposed to justify the guy with 3 legs and a 3rd hand growing out of his forehead? They should have left more mutation and other "extreme" bits loose, so that you can choose whether you want them or not.

Actually Alpha legion often do wear the armor of other factions in other to blend in and hide, and infact the one time there was a forgeworld option for them, it was recommended they come blended in with other "Loyalist" colors and marks.

 Fafnir wrote:
I had high hopes after seeing what was in Dark Vengeance (except for the dread thing... not a fan of that). But the new release is one hell of a disappointment.

Overall, it really reflects the much more 'toyetic' appearance that GW has been pushing. It's not really a sudden thing, GW's been doing this for years, but it's getting to the point where the fisher-priceyness is overcoming the original aesthetic.

I'm not a fan, personally.

I agree. After the horrible fantasy Necrons, the trend continues with CSM. I like both ideas for CSM, the renegades and warped but the new ones are neither, just cluttered and fantasish. Dragon is a simple proof that madness is not what GW is aiming for.

I don't care though, with metal plague marines, Typhus, pleague bearers, FW upgraded terminators, Nurgle bikers and 1,5 DV starters to convert, I'm happy to not buy anything Chaos from GW for a long time, that includes ofc 50$ 100 pages book that borders on insanely priced.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Well get this, Chaos is not "badass", it is disturbing. Watch some creepy/mindblowing movies like Eraserhead or Evil Dead 2, and you'll be in a better mindset of evil than you would if you watched Transformers 3.

If you want that, play counts-as Space Marines using the Blood Angels book since that's what you're looking for.

It deeply worries me that you would rather have a disturbing and disgusting army rather than an awesome one that looks badass.
The thing is, I agree with you on a lot of things, having mutants and crazies in an army is fun and its one of my reasons for liking chaos, but that should not be every troop, definitely not. I think that the norm for CSM should be the "spiky marines" that get so much unneccesary hate, with maybe a few crazy mutants, and a crazy, fun, and converted army should be these pseudo-demonic psychos that we all know and love. I think the main reason for my opinion on this is my loyalist base, I'm rather new to chaos, so completely disregard my thoughts if you so please.

Also I think Matt Hutson's Red Corsairs army and Skalk Bloodaxe's Chaos (I love any of his stuff) are the best Chaos armies evar.

I would love to field a sick, disgusting and disturbing army, that's not what GW is doing with 6th edition CSM though. It would require catering to adults and that's something long gone about 40k.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
I would love to field a sick, disgusting and disturbing army, that's not what GW is doing with 6th edition CSM though. It would require catering to adults and that's something long gone about 40k.

Not gone, they call it Forge World, and you have to spend your adult job money on it.

Otherwise you are right on target, the more sick and disgusting, the better

Oh yes I want that FW GUO since I first saw it, just like the Keeper of Secrets... no way though, maybe in 2040 assuming my kids will be living on their own then.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Oh yes I want that FW GUO since I first saw it, just like the Keeper of Secrets... no way though, maybe in 2040 assuming my kids will be living on their own then.

I hear they are also accepting payment in the form of child slaves, you might want to consider that.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

 Ailaros wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Possessed are Space Marines possessed by Daemons, everyone else is a mutant, big difference.

Considering an Aspiring Champion is trying to gain the attention of the dark gods and their gifts, Why wouldn't he be having a mutation showing off his loyalty and sacrifice to chaos with the gift that makes him stronger?

I agree that possession and mutation are different things. It's part of what is bothering me here. It's like GW is making the statement that selling one's soul or being possessed by demons automatically means that you're going to have horns sprouting out your armpits.

I mean, when the thousand suns went to tzeentch, did tzeentch bestow his demonic blessing by mutating them? No, he did it by destroying their mortal flesh. There was nothing LEFT to mutate. Likewise, I don't think I've ever seen a single GW mini that was devoted to khorne that has a mutation on it. The only thing close I've seen is forgeworld, and even then, that was a tiny set of demon horns on the khrone lord, and it was tastefully done.

Being chaos is not the same as being mutant. Some chaos is mutation, but there is a big, bold world out there that is not.

In the end, what we're seeing with the new minis is a subjugation of the demonic to the mutative. We're not seeing CHAOS space marines, we're seeing MUTANT space marines. If you're big on nurgle, then you'll obviously like this, but for everyone else, as Moustaffa says, it would be great if mutations were an option, not something you had to remove from the mini if you didn't want it.

The problem is for the longest time most of the models didn't even have any mutations for anything that wasn't specific to it (Possessed, DP, Oblits), one had to either very old models from 1st/very early second edition, or convert your own out of daemon parts and models to convert for your chaos marines.

Now we're finally getting models with mutations within it at least, hopefully someday we'll be able to get a mix and match between the two, but to say I'm disappointed in the current range would be a lie after all the spiked marines with nothing close to it.