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I am new to 40K. As in I started playing about 3 months before 6th. I chose one of the hardest armies to start with the Tau. I liked their style and strategies but have run into some major problems with actually properly using the Tau.

I have looked up strategies online but pretty much I have found 2 stratagems:
-Heavy support Rail guns
-Crisis Suits

Various ways to make them effective but I feel as if many of the options in the Tau codex are ignored because of how hard they are to use. Mainly the following units:
-Sniper Drone Team
-Vespid Stingwings
-Kroot (As more than just a wall)
-Sky Ray
-Piranha
-Ethereal

While I admit the Rail guns power is VITAL. I want to design a more varied Tau army list. I see a lot of mid-range weaponry that is not used a lot by Tau players in my area and have not found many online strategies for them. Maybe I am not looking in the right places but I have not found them. Also with the new 1.1 Tau Errata bringing back Target Lock ( YAY! ). And altering Disruption Pods giving vehicles Shrouded. I think a lot of options are now available to allow the use of these under used units. Not to mention the effects 6th edition rule changes have on fleet and jump units.

For example:

Vespid Stingwings

Movement Phase: Vespids can now choose to move 12" here to get closer or farther away more quickly from threats with the run in the shooting phase which can be rerolled thanks to Fleet. Or they can just move 6" so they can use the jump ability in the assault phase (Assaulting in a Tau strategy may seem like a huge rookie mistake but stay with me for a second)

Shooting phase:
Their weapons have a range of 12" which seems silly in a Tau army but with a STR 5 AP 3 weapon with assault 1, it is not as silly as you think. So BS 3 means about half the shots are not going to make it.

So 11 shots will have an avg of 5-6 hits. A bad scenario I get 3 hits, Good case I get 5.

Now my main opponent is a Blood Angel player that uses a rather devastating assault marine setup where they all have Feel No Pain and 5+ Cover Saves and since its AP 3 his 3+ armor is null. So bad case I get 1. Good I get 3.

So Shooting phase I kill 1-3 Assault Marine out of 10.

Assault Phase:
Now I will NEVER say ANY Tau unit can dominate in assault. I will say the Vespid can at least hold their own. As Jump units they get two things that are nice. Reroll of charge distance and Hammer of Wrath. They also have fleet. So if you did not use the Jump to charge you can still reroll a die on the charge. (I am unsure if Jump and Fleet means you can use fleet's reroll on the reroll you take with Jump)

Anyway lets say they use the Jump ability. So they charge with jump. Having shot in the shooting phase means they are at MAX 12" away. So they are within charge distance. With the rerolls and how you can set it up we will say a success on charging.

With Hammer of Wrath they get 11 INIT 10 STR 3 auto hits. Using the assault marines from before with toughness 4, means probably 2-4 possible wounds. Bad scenario 2. Good 4.

3+ Armor save and 5+ Feel no Pain. Bad scenario No wounds. Good case I get 2.

Now since they charged they get 22 Initiative 5 STR 3 hits. Which means they hit BEFORE the Marines with INIT 4. So with a 4+ needed to hit Half should fail. 11 hits.

5+ to wound means most should fail so 3-4 wounds. Bad case 2. Good case 4.

Then the armor and feel no pain. Bad case 1. Good case 3 wounds.

So at the end of the assault Phase I have 1-5 Dead Marines.

Summary:
So in one turn the Vespid against a Blood Angel Assault squad with Feel No Pain and 5+ Cover Saves. 2-8 Assault Marines Dead. (I averaged closer to 2-4 in test rolls but my dice hate me) Now lets be honest the Vespid get Annihilated by the remaining forces. Allowing the remaining Marines to get mopped up by gun line.

Did they do great? NO. But they weakened and STOPPED an assaulting squad before it got to the gun line and that squad is now in front of the gun line. And in a GREAT scenario may even kill a squad and live to get another one. Of course in the Worst Case scenario they got nothing and are now off the board. But that is just luck of the dice.

So one full squad of 11 gets 11 STR 5 AP 3 shots, 11 INIT 10 STR 3 hits, followed by 22 INIT 5 STR 3 hits. For a total of 44 attacks in one turn with an 11 man squad all of which will most likely go BEFORE whatever unit they charge into. The only major downside to fielding Vespid is the cost. A squad of 11 costs 182 points. That is a lot to be putting into lower point games. I need to test the strategy but I think it could be rather useful if utilized right.

Grade: B- (Not field tested, so grade may raise later. But test rolls against a superior force are favorable)

Do you all agree with my assessment of the Vespid? Do the new rule sets make them a viable option for a Tau army instead of just a "fun" unit? I will place more strategies with lesser used units later.

mikequake wrote:
Do you all agree with my assessment of the Vespid? Do the new rule sets make them a viable option for a Tau army instead of just a "fun" unit? I will place more strategies with lesser used units later.

No, because they still have no armor save and therefore get shot up before getting into assault range, then shot up again by overwatch as they try to charge. And then once you get there with the few survivors you swing once and kill a couple marines and then lose the squad. And that's assuming you don't have to go through terrain and strike at I 1 since you have no grenades, which results in the squad dying horribly before getting to swing.

Meanwhile, for the same price, you can get twice as many Kroot meatshields to put in front of your shooting units. And just to make it worse, the Vespids occupy a fast attack slot, where you can get a variety of far superior units (Pathfinders, Tetras, Barracudas, Piranhas, XV9s).

Vespids have a 5+ Armor Save. While many weapons have AP 5 and that makes the armor useless. I do not say 5+ is nothing when the most the Kroot can get is 6+ which they PAY for. On top of that. While I admit to the problem of them being shot up is an issue. A few points against this issue is the fact that I would not launch my Vespid willy nilly at opponents like Assault Marines, Orks, or Tyranid players would. They would need better strategy in maneuvering into place for the assault. Also against a force that is mainly assault based the issue becomes less credible as I stated my main opponent is a Blood Angel player that focuses mainly on Assault. As for the Terrain issue after looking it up I realized I made a bad assumption. I assumed Jump Units are not effected by that rule since they can fly OVER the terrain and are not going THROUGH it but I cannot find any wording SPECIFICALLY stating this. Which I find odd. I did find in the Main Rulebook on p47 starting on the third line under Skyborne that Jump units:

...can move over all other models and all terrain freely.

Honestly the people I play with all play with Jump units unnaffected by Terrain as long as they use their Jump Packs. As for the grenade issue. Tau have only two types of grenades. Photon which function like anticharging. And EMP which are antivehicle so NO Grenades being mentioned as a negative in most Tau strategies is a non issue. And in defense of my assessment I stated the problem of PRICE of the unit being a detractor for Smaller Army Sizes. But in a bigger army I think they would make a fine addition. Also I am trying to come up with OTHER strategies than the Kroot Meat Wall. So if you have another suggestion as a replacement for the Kroot wall please state that. Finally while many players and even Games Workshop accept Forgeworld specific units into army lists I am going off just the units in the Tau Codex for now. Since as a new player I need to not get too overwhelmed by extra things.

mikequake wrote:
While many weapons have AP 5 and that makes the armor useless.

Almost every weapon in the game has AP 5 or better. Pretty much the only thing that doesn't ignore Vespid armor is lasguns, so in terms of actually keeping them alive before they charge it's effectively the same as having no save at all. Even basic tactical squads with bolters are going to wipe entire Vespid squads off the table.

They would need better strategy in maneuvering into place for the assault.

IOW, they're bad. If you have to use complicated strategy to get a unit to do its job it's a bad unit.

I assumed Jump Units are not effected by that rule since they can fly OVER the terrain and are not going THROUGH it but I cannot find any wording SPECIFICALLY stating this.

Main rulebook FAQ: if you moved through terrain you are I1 even if you ignore difficult terrain. If you save your jump pack for the assault phase you can go over terrain between you and your target, but you still get the initiative penalty if you land in area terrain occupied by your target.

so NO Grenades being mentioned as a negative in most Tau strategies is a non issue.

Of course it's an issue. Who cares if some other unit in the codex doesn't have assault grenades, you're not trying to assault with them. And the simple fact is that an assault unit that depends on superior initiative but doesn't have assault grenades is a bad assault unit.

And in defense of my assessment I stated the problem of PRICE of the unit being a detractor for Smaller Army Sizes. But in a bigger army I think they would make a fine addition.

Army size has nothing to do with it. No matter what size army it is an equal point value of Kroot will be better.

Also I am trying to come up with OTHER strategies than the Kroot Meat Wall. So if you have another suggestion as a replacement for the Kroot wall please state that.

Why would you want to replace it? It's like saying you want to come up with alternatives to winning the game. Sure, you can do it, but why?

Though if you want to replace it, the solution is simple: IG allies, infantry platoon, throw in a Vendetta or two while you're at it.

Finally while many players and even Games Workshop accept Forgeworld specific units into army lists I am going off just the units in the Tau Codex for now. Since as a new player I need to not get too overwhelmed by extra things.

Perhaps then as a new player you should focus on learning the game instead of writing articles advising other people on how to play it?

I am simply wishing to see if I can get more options than Kroot wall Fire line while staying within the Tau army. I will concede that the shooting of the unit is a major weakness. However most of the Tau units needs close attention paid to movement and placement in the attack whether shooting or assaulting or the effectiveness is greatly reduced. I placed a broadside team badly once and that basically lost me the game because for most of it I could not use one of my best killing units. Every unit in the game needs careful thought in how it is used. Also the Vespid with an INIT 5 will USUALLY have a superior INIT than their target. A unit of 11 with 11-33 attacks in assault depending on how you attack in an army where melee is the biggest weakness is not a bad unit. Compared to other armies yes. But in the Tau army no. My friend that uses Blood Angel Assault Marines usually does not use Assault Grenades and instead usually maneuvers around terrain. Finally the point on Jump units and difficult terrain seems debatable. So lets drop that specific argument and leave it to each of our own house rules. (Also please take no offense to my opinions or thoughts I am simply asking about strategies I have thought up and whether my thinking is correct I am very appreciative of the input you have given so far)

mikequake wrote:
I am simply wishing to see if I can get more options than Kroot wall Fire line while staying within the Tau army.

Why? If it's clearly the best strategy what's the point in trying to find other things just for the sake of being different?

A unit of 11 with 11-33 attacks in assault depending on how you attack in an army where melee is the biggest weakness is not a bad unit.

Except that you won't have a unit of 11 by the time you get into assault range. Even a basic tactical squad will kill 1-2 from overwatch alone, and that's in addition to all of the other shooting they're going to take. If you're lucky enough to get into assault at all it's more likely to be with a unit of 2-3 than 11.

Oh, remember those Kroot? A unit of 26 Kroot (same price as your 11 Vespids) gets 78 attacks on the charge (IOW, even if half the squad is cut down before they swing they still do more than the Vespids), and if you give up shooting to take hounds you can get 30 of those at I5. So the Kroot are better at killing MEQs at higher initiative, and they're better at killing MEQs at low initiative.

Compared to other armies yes. But in the Tau army no.

Lesson here: don't assault with a Tau army. You don't have to have an assault unit, you can just kill everything with guns.

My friend that uses Blood Angel Assault Marines usually does not use Assault Grenades and instead usually maneuvers around terrain.

Err, what? BA assault marines have assault grenades by default. If your friend is moving around terrain to avoid the initiative penalty your friend just isn't taking advantage of all of his rules.

Edit: you may just be confused here. Your friend is probably avoiding terrain to avoid the dangerous terrain test which could kill his troops but not do anything to their initiative. This has nothing to do with grenades, of course.

Finally the point on Jump units and difficult terrain seems debatable. So lets drop that specific argument and leave it to each of our own house rules.

It's not debatable at all. GW explicitly answered it with the FAQ. If you land in difficult terrain to assault you are I1 unless you have assault grenades.

IF you LAND in difficult terrain. You made it sound like just going over the terrain reduces the INIT. Also its not just about being different I just don't think it is the BEST strategy. Also I did not know that about BA Assault Marines and you maybe correct on that edit. Max Kroot in a Kroot squad is 20. On the charge they get 30 attacks, 1 normal 1 from dual weapons and 1 from charge INIT 3. Hounds 12 max, 26 attacks on the charge attack 2 normal 1 from charge INIT 5. Add a shaper for 14 more points 2 more attacks

19 Kroot 1 Shaper 12 Hounds
62 INIT 3 STR 4
26 INIT 5 STR 4
Armor Sv: 6+
Point cost: 257
Total Models: 32

10 Kroot 1 Shaper
35 INIT 3 STR 4
Armor Sv: 6+
Point Cost: 101
Total Models: 11

10 Stingwings 1 Strain Leader
11 INIT 10 STR 3
22 INIT 5 STR 3
Armor Sv: 5+
Point cost: 182
Total models: 11

I am not trying to get an assault unit. I am just trying to get a decent hit with an assaulting unit before the enemy hits the gun line. At 257 a total kroot force maybe too expensive but at 11 units may not be enough to harm it. Even if most of the unit will get taken out by shooting. In assault most basic units will go after the Stingwings. Also I am not trying to stop the slower moving Tactical squad. My worry is the faster Jump Assault squads that get into my gun line either turn 1 or 2 depending on whether my opponent went first or not.

Actually you have helped me realize a few more problems with them.
In The Scouring mission they would basically be a free VP for the enemy although they also now count as scoring.

mikequake wrote:
IF you LAND in difficult terrain. You made it sound like just going over the terrain reduces the INIT.

Then read more carefully. I explicitly said that you move over terrain without penalty, and the lack of grenades is a problem when you're landing in area terrain occupied by your target.

On the charge they get 30 attacks, 1 normal 1 from dual weapons and 1 from charge INIT 3.

Err, what? You do realize that 20 Kroot with three attacks each is 60 attacks, not 30, right? Basic math.

Hounds 12 max, 26 attacks on the charge attack 2 normal 1 from charge INIT 5.

Really, if you're going to post strategy advice you need to learn to do math better. 12 hounds with 3 attacks each is 36 attacks.

19 Kroot 1 Shaper 12 Hounds
62 INIT 3 STR 4
26 INIT 5 STR 4
Armor Sv: 6+
Point cost: 257
Total Models: 32

No. You never buy an armor save with Kroot, and you never buy a shaper. You're just inflating the point cost for no benefit.

I am not trying to get an assault unit. I am just trying to get a decent hit with an assaulting unit before the enemy hits the gun line.

Then bring more guns and shoot the enemy.

Even if most of the unit will get taken out by shooting. In assault most basic units will go after the Stingwings.

Except when most of the unit gets taken out by shooting you don't have enough to inflict enough casualties.

Let's say you get three Vespid into assault. Overwatch kills one, the remaining two swing four times, hit twice, inflict 0.666 wounds and get 0.222 past the armor save. After the Vespids kill less than one MEQ the marines swing back and wipe out the Vespids. Your opponent laughs at you and consolidates D6" closer to the next target.

Also I am not trying to stop the slower moving Tactical squad.

It doesn't matter if you're trying to stop it, the tactical squad can still shoot at them during your opponent's turn and even bolters are going to wipe entire Vespid units off the table.

Sorry about my bad math it is like 3 am here and I am hitting buttons badly and I may need to go to sleep. I keep having the auto correct correct all the things I misspell. Also I do not use fractions since dice do not use them I may get one or none but if I get one that means my gun line has one less to worry about. Also the shaper actually is not a bad choice since for 14 more points you get 2 more attacks so its like getting two more kroot. Also you can use your Shaper to tie up the opposing unit leader with a challenge for at least a single turn. Causing the enemy unit to be tied up longer. I used that strategy to great effect in one game. It meant five less attacks on my kroot for a turn. D6" closer to my gunline is usually not a good thing for my opponent. Especially with 15" rapid fire of my Fire Warriors. Anyway I am losing my coherent thought I will continue tomorrow as I am sure I sound like I am just ranting now. I thank you very much for your input and hope to continue this discussion as well as discuss other ideas I have had.

mikequake wrote:
Also I do not use fractions since dice do not use them I may get one or none but if I get one that means my gun line has one less to worry about.

That's not the point of fractions, it's to keep rounding errors from accumulating through multiple steps of math. If you round at every step you end up with final results covering a huge range instead of a nice useful single number. As we can tell from the fact that your conclusion is 2-8 marines dead, which is way too broad a range to be useful.

Also, since the point is to talk about mathematical averages and compare two units, not to predict a particular result of rolling in a game, you should just keep the fractions. Even if you can only roll in whole numbers a unit that does 2.4 kills on average will do better than a unit that does 2.1 kills and you lose information by rounding both to 2.

Also the shaper actually is not a bad choice since for 14 more points you get 2 more attacks so its like getting two more kroot.

Except a shaper costs +21 points to upgrade, not a fixed 21 points. The total price is 28 points, so you get fewer base attacks than the four Kroot you could buy instead, fewer bonus attacks from two weapons, and fewer bonus attacks from charging.

Also you can use your Shaper to tie up the opposing unit leader with a challenge for at least a single turn.

So? Since it's a T3/no save model with 3 wounds killing it will inflict just as many wounds as hitting the rest of the squad, and in fact protects the enemy sergeant from getting blobbed by your Kroot.

Don't forget that your opponent can accept with ANY character, so the sergeant can smash the shaper while the combat character goes after your squad.

D6" closer to my gunline is usually not a good thing for my opponent.

Except it's D6" during your turn. Then on their own turn they move normally and assault you earlier.

Vespid just plain dont work, they dont do nearly enough damage for the cost.

They need either a serious price reduction, the gun turned to assualt 2 or the S and WS both increased in order to be viable, otherwise they are just a bad assualt unit in an army that avoids assualts like fire anyway.

I have heard that originally the Vespid were to be equipped with a template like weapon, the idea being not to assault but to jump into cover and shoot the heck out of the guys there then be just good enough at a fight to survive the counter charge that follows.

If only they had kept the template.

Yeah, sorry to say it but Vespid are just priced way too high for what you get, and while their speed makes them seem to be built for combat they really suck at it.
Don't get me wrong, they can be a lot of fun in the right situation and I love using them in friendly games, but they are not competitive, and using them as a counter-assault unit is just a waste.

If you are worried about assault marines then make your army more mobile use stealth suits, hammerheads, and devilfish, or just load up on firepower.

Added: In direct response to your last question, 6th edition may have made vespids shinier, but it didn't make them more useful.

Vespid aren't horrible, they just compare unfavorably to Crisis Suits in most situations (they can deal almost as much damage as a plasma rifle/fusion blaster Crisis Suit team against MEQ models, but they're less versatile, more expensive, and can't take a punch quite as well), so nobody uses them since they're saving points for the Crisis Suits.

Most of the units nobody uses in the Tau Codex aren't used because they have to compete with much, much better units in most situations, not because they're 'bad' per se. Sniper Drones and Sky Rays could be all right, but they're never going to see play because Broadsides and Hammerheads are fundamentally better (though I expect that to change once people notice that Seeker Missiles are Skyfire now); Piranhas are cool and all, but their role is fundamentally that of a faster, less versatile Crisis Suit; Kroot are pretty lame because the rules that made them cool are relics of the 4e cover rules; and the Ethereal's morale-boosting rules are only relevant in close combat, which the Tau should be avoiding like the plague anyway.

It depends on what you consider Midrange.

IMO, what I consider midrange (12-18) Tau do just fine. 15 inch RF Pulse rifles and 18 inch Burst Cannons.


Tau, while they are an old book and other armies can outgun us, are no slouches when it comes to shooting.

To my mind midrange is 18"-36", which is where Tau are weakest; it's too close, because most assault armies can cover that distance really quickly, but also too far for most of our firepower, as you're out of rapid fire range (in fact out of range for a lot of weapons in the Tau armoury, a design choice I always found bizarre for a shooting army...)

This is why you'll find most Tau armies using either extreme long range firepower (Broadsides, Hammerheads), and/or high mobility units that can get in close, hit hard and then move out again. Now Pirahanas and mounted Firewarriors can do the second, but Crisis suits, with their heavy firepower and assault move capability are the king of this.

Vespid generally just don't have enough firepower and assault capability to hit hard enough; although the comment about armour saves versus lasguns is making me want to try them against my IG playing friend...

Has anyone tried the Kroot Knarloc riders? As cavalry they might be a good midrange assault unit, if They can do enough damage.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(though I expect that to change once people notice that Seeker Missiles are Skyfire now)

Um..... are they??

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
(though I expect that to change once people notice that Seeker Missiles are Skyfire now)

Um..... are they??

The FAQs have ruled that they still hit on a 2+ even when firing snap shots. Of course the markerlight you require to fire the seeker missile still needs a 6 to hit (unless you somehow give it skyfire), so this really doesn't help very much.

I'd also be interested in the source of any Skyfire ruling, although admittedly I have been playing it as such since the inception of 6th, as other BS modifiers don't apply to the Seeker.

The FAQ has thus far not been updated to reflect Seekers explicitly as Skyfire.

Ignore the hate for different Tau builds. It's most all you will find on Dakka. A big part of it is the experience from 5th and 4th (like Vespids). Now in 6th, Vespids aren't horrible, but like anything else in the Tau codex, you can't simply drop them on the table and win. try to find synergy between units you want to use and others.

Personally, I LOVE my sniper drones. They deny an area of 36", kill marines good, and have a 2+ save in cover. Also, it's 1-3 (always 3 for me) independently targeting markerlight on the table. Use a tetra or Pathfinders to light something up, raise the bs, reduce leadership, and you can auto pin most things. Also, because they can kill marines so easy they are large targets. The enemy will usually waste a lot of fire power on them.

I would suggest you read through ATT. They have a lot of good articles for the Tau that aren't just "RAIL GUNZ AND CISIS SOOTS OMGZZ!".

Also, for skyfire markerlights -> Remora Drone Fighters.

Vespid are not despite what the weapon says or the init looks like an assault unit. Use them this way and you are just going to waste points. The Vespid are a high speed terrain loving harrassment unit. Think about the one stand out special rule they have "Skilled Flyers", this gives Jump Infantry unit the option of re-rolling failed Dangerous terrain test, and with 6e they also get an armor save.

To wit, Vespids can Deep Strike in to cover, have a gun that can pop light transports(not really recommended) or ignore most power armor and are a fleet Jump troop. You want to slow down an attacking assault unit? Jump in behind them in to cover within range of your gun, take up to 11 shots, and then wait in cover so you can survive either the counter assault or return shooting. On your turn do it again. Problem here is that Suits just do that better.

maceria wrote:

Personally, I LOVE my sniper drones. They deny an area of 36", kill marines good, and have a 2+ save in cover. Also, it's 1-3 (always 3 for me) independently targeting markerlight on the table. Use a tetra or Pathfinders to light something up, raise the bs, reduce leadership, and you can auto pin most things. Also, because they can kill marines so easy they are large targets. The enemy will usually waste a lot of fire power on them.

Its THAT much more amusing to see the SM player decide the best thing to do with the sniper drones is to have his units hide behind a LoS blocker in his own deployment because there is no way him guys will survive the walk toward them, effectivly surrendering that flank.

I heard so much trash about both the sniper drones and the stealth suits, and I just don't get it. both units are AMAZING.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its THAT much more amusing to see the SM player decide the best thing to do with the sniper drones is to have his units hide behind a LoS blocker in his own deployment because there is no way him guys will survive the walk toward them, effectivly surrendering that flank.

Sorry, but beating a bad player (and yes, hiding your units out of LOS where they can't contribute anything instead of taking the risk is stupid) doesn't mean the unit is good. A sniper drone unit will average less than one dead marine per turn if they have a cover save, so as long as you keep the meatshield bolter carriers out in front the drones aren't going to be a major threat. You just take the casualties, get into range, and win.

I heard so much trash about both the sniper drones and the stealth suits, and I just don't get it. both units are AMAZING.

Sniper drones are bad because they occupy a Broadside slot and don't do very much, while Broadsides are one of the best units in your codex.

Stealth suits are bad because they occupy a crisis suit slot and all they have is burst cannons. Sure, they have an improved cover save but they also only have T3 and one wound compared to the T4/2 crisis suits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

maceria wrote:
Personally, I LOVE my sniper drones. They deny an area of 36", kill marines good, and have a 2+ save in cover. Also, it's 1-3 (always 3 for me) independently targeting markerlight on the table. Use a tetra or Pathfinders to light something up, raise the bs, reduce leadership, and you can auto pin most things. Also, because they can kill marines so easy they are large targets. The enemy will usually waste a lot of fire power on them.

First of all they don't kill marines very well at all. The AP 3 gun is offset by BS3 and small unit size, so you average a little less than one dead MEQ per turn if they have cover (which they will). That's not even close to area denial, it's just a few meatshield casualties to remove as you advance to your objective. To put this into context, equal points in basic guardsmen will kill more marines using only their flashlights. And that's at 24", at rapid fire range the flashlights dominate your snipers at MEQ killing.

Second, pinning is a waste. Once you've bought all of those markerlights to "auto pin" you've spent so many points that you could have just brought more guns and killed the unit entirely. Stop wasting your time with gimmick units and bring units that win games.

I would suggest you read through ATT. They have a lot of good articles for the Tau that aren't just "RAIL GUNZ AND CISIS SOOTS OMGZZ!".

Which is exactly the problem with ATT: their unwritten policy is "every unit has a use", which just isn't true. Their strategy articles about weaker units are just laughably bad, but it is kind of amusing to see the desperate rationalizations and mediocre "tactics" they invent for a bad unit to try to avoid saying "this unit is just useless".

Also, for skyfire markerlights -> Remora Drone Fighters.

No. Remoras are garbage. Don't bother screwing around with seeker missiles when you can just bring a Barracuda and kill things more effectively with your own guns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its THAT much more amusing to see the SM player decide the best thing to do with the sniper drones is to have his units hide behind a LoS blocker in his own deployment because there is no way him guys will survive the walk toward them, effectivly surrendering that flank.

Sorry, but beating a bad player (and yes, hiding your units out of LOS where they can't contribute anything instead of taking the risk is stupid) doesn't mean the unit is good. A sniper drone unit will average less than one dead marine per turn if they have a cover save, so as long as you keep the meatshield bolter carriers out in front the drones aren't going to be a major threat. You just take the casualties, get into range, and win.

I said it was amusing, not that it was a genious-level match. and due to a team of stealth suits in a position that dominates the barren wasteland path to the snipers-they would not get close alive, just too much guns having too much free shots. (and to be quite honest, their hiding spot was not too far from a 2 point objective, but the stealth wiped them down later on anyway.)

 Peregrine wrote:

Sniper drones are bad because they occupy a Broadside slot and don't do very much, while Broadsides are one of the best units in your codex.

Stealth suits are bad because they occupy a crisis suit slot and all they have is burst cannons. Sure, they have an improved cover save but they also only have T3 and one wound compared to the T4/2 crisis suits.

Yes, because we see SO much armor lately, and there is an actual need for all these broadsides these days? 1-2 squads of broadsides is plenty these days, leaving enough rooms for sniper teams to fit into some lists.

"only" BS3 is unfortunatly the tau standard, and its better to have a proper gun at that BS then an improper gun. besides you have a markerlight attached so its more like "BS3.5".
(and marines won't have cover most times, marine players just dont think about it and are often not dexmobile enough to have cover for EVERYONE, some of them will be out in the open, and they will be your targets. heard of "focus fire" rules? and if they do-you can markerlight it away!)

Also, you use the auto-pin only when the situation is such that you NEED to pin one spesific unit. all these "gimmik" unit can be diveret to other rules when that is no needed-and increasing the BS of your broadsides, FW and crisis teams will never be a waste.

Besides, as for "don't do very much", they are only 80 points per team. that's cheaper then a bare-bones 5-man devistator squad, and these bring FAR less then 3 anti-marine guns and a markerlight on a squad that is actually EASIER to gun down.


As for the stealth teams- you dont see the board control power granted by an infiltrating jet pack unit that packs not-too-shabby guns? its not the killy power, its the tactical power.

Naturally it cannot match the firepower of a crisis, it don't have the same battlefield roles from the firstplace! a crisis team is a mobile weapon platform, a stealth team is a zone control unit, smaller, sleeker, and easier to hide away and JSJ with, and virtually unshootable in proper cover. (or a gun drone blob, or a stealth marker team, or a backdoor harrasment, etc, etc...)

And pretty hard to have "not enough" crisis suit slots, after all you got 2 HQ slots dedicated for it unless you take the shadowsun-etheral combo. (and math will tell you that both the ever-so-popular "fireknife" and "helios" setups are better point-per-kill as a BS5 'el and BS4 bodyguard team then a basic crisis team against any desireable target.)



Actually, have you even tried one of these units in 6th edition? they prove to be much more useful then their pure stat line suggests, because they work well with anything else you have there, they are verstile, unpredictable, and damn hard to kill for their cost.
There is one thing that you need to keep in mind when thinking of these units: OPTIONS. you can easily make them switch battlefield roles as you deploy, while most units in any codex have their role decided before even leaving your house.
No, they are not units that fits into every list whatsoever and should always be taken, but in the right list they will be the bane of your enemy. especially in lists that saturate cover-abusing units as only Tau can (and most people are unprepared for)

Won't mention the remora as I didnt test them out myself, but they seem to be very much alike to me from a reading, weak on paper but great when used in the right list and with the right tactics.


As for ATT: I agree that they are mostly out-of-date, and they insist that "anything has some use" slightly further then they should, but these "medicore" tactics WIN games, quickly, efficintly, and repedetivly. not because they are the epitome of math power, but because they are verstile enough and diverse enough so you can always CHOOSE what to do, rather then be forced to a single doctorine even before the game started as the "crisis and broadside" lists does in thier blind copy of marines.

Some tacticas are "get the most out what you have", but many of them is "use units beyond thier stat lines" and "adapt to many situations with the same units", and that is where stratagy and tactics truely shine.

You may be playing Tau, but you think like a Space-Marine. raw power is not everything, subtle power and verstility makes units that are weak on paper to have a massive impact of the tabletop.

http://mlitkt.info/new-look-less-content/

The two viable tactics is main reason I gave them up

 BoomWolf wrote:
I said it was amusing, not that it was a genious-level match. and due to a team of stealth suits in a position that dominates the barren wasteland path to the snipers-they would not get close alive, just too much guns having too much free shots. (and to be quite honest, their hiding spot was not too far from a 2 point objective, but the stealth wiped them down later on anyway.)

Except the point is that hiding out of LOS because you're afraid of casualties is something that only bad players do. Good players recognize that keeping a unit alive does nothing if it is just hiding out of the fight, so you advance to a useful position even if it means taking losses. All you're really saying is that sniper drones are capable of forcing newbies into "MUST NOT LOSE A MODEL" mode, and that isn't something that happens once you get over the shock of pulling models off the table.

And if they were in position to claim an objective your sniper drones were worthless, since they didn't stop the marines from accomplishing their goal.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes, because we see SO much armor lately, and there is an actual need for all these broadsides these days? 1-2 squads of broadsides is plenty these days, leaving enough rooms for sniper teams to fit into some lists.

I don't know what 40k you're playing, but in the 6th edition that everyone else is playing vehicles are still awesome. And Broadsides are still awesome, since they're way better at anti-tank and with plasma they can still hurt MEQs. Oh, and unlike sniper drones, they are just as effective against terminators, which I hear are kind of popular these days.

"only" BS3 is unfortunatly the tau standard, and its better to have a proper gun at that BS then an improper gun. besides you have a markerlight attached so its more like "BS3.5".

The point is that rail rifles seem awesome, until you realize how few shots you have and how frequently they miss. The end result is that even though you have AP 3 you have a gun that's less effective than IG flashlights.

(and marines won't have cover most times, marine players just dont think about it and are often not dexmobile enough to have cover for EVERYONE, some of them will be out in the open, and they will be your targets. heard of "focus fire" rules? and if they do-you can markerlight it away!)

So pretty much your defense is "bad marine players don't seek cover against AP 3 weapons"?

And yes, cover is harder to get, but not at more than 24" which is where sniper drones have to be to survive. When you're forced to take cross-table shots, especially out of your own cover, it's pretty hard to avoid giving up a cover save.

Also, you use the auto-pin only when the situation is such that you NEED to pin one spesific unit. all these "gimmik" unit can be diveret to other rules when that is no needed-and increasing the BS of your broadsides, FW and crisis teams will never be a waste.

And my point is that planning for it is just stupid. Sure, you keep in mind that you can drop LD with markerlights but it's going to be extremely rare that you'd want to do so, and you should never design your list with the intent of making sure you can use the gimmick.

Besides, as for "don't do very much", they are only 80 points per team. that's cheaper then a bare-bones 5-man devistator squad, and these bring FAR less then 3 anti-marine guns and a markerlight on a squad that is actually EASIER to gun down.

That's a stupid comparison. Why would you ever compare anything to a devastator squad with no heavy weapons? How about instead you give the devastators a full load of heavy weapons and compare the two at points-per-kill, including the fact that missiles are legitimate anti-tank but sniper drones aren't. And then remember that C:SM devastators are generally considered a weak and overpriced unit.

As for the stealth teams- you dont see the board control power granted by an infiltrating jet pack unit that packs not-too-shabby guns? its not the killy power, its the tactical power.

Except tactical power depends on killy power. If a unit isn't a major threat I can just ignore it, so its ability at area denial or whatever is zero.

There is one thing that you need to keep in mind when thinking of these units: OPTIONS. you can easily make them switch battlefield roles as you deploy, while most units in any codex have their role decided before even leaving your house.

So what? I'd rather have a single-role unit that is amazing at its single role than a mutli-role unit that's mediocre at several different things.

Won't mention the remora as I didnt test them out myself, but they seem to be very much alike to me from a reading, weak on paper but great when used in the right list and with the right tactics.

You're wrong. Remoras were way too expensive when Barracudas were a 220 point heavy support unit, now that Barracudas are fast attack and only 20 points more than a Remora the Remora is absolute garbage. There is no combination of list and tactics that can change the simple fact that the Barracuda is a superior unit in every way.

You may be playing Tau, but you think like a Space-Marine. raw power is not everything, subtle power and verstility makes units that are weak on paper to have a massive impact of the tabletop.

Or I could just take all that complex and subtle strategy that makes a weak unit decent and spend it on making my awesome units even more awesome. Tau are no different than any other codex, the way to win games most efficiently is to find the best units in the book and bring as many of them as you can.

(And yes, I play Tau.)

Too much of a bother to qoute every point so I will just say this:

1-its hard to stop an enemy squad from reaching to an objective withing 6' of his own deployment when they start the game in a transport, not even a trio of russes could never stop them from GETTING there, the question is what happens afterwards-and these guys were stuck in place. they did stop them from doing anything else, including shooting at anything more valuable then stealth gun drones. (they took out an amazing 1 the entire game) it was not "must not lose a model" mode, it was "these guys move and they are freaking DEAD" mode.

2-I never said broadsides are BAD, just that you dont NEED so many any more, and it opens new options. and I dont know what 40K YOU are playing, but less tanks are driving around these days. (not tank-free, and as such I still take my fair share if braodsides, but no longer a tank for every 300 points) broadsides are GREAY units, but NOT the effective answer to anything, plus they are freaking EXPENSIVE, with a single broadside usually costing as much or more then a sniper team.

3-few shots, and not great on accuracy (decent though, BS3 with a S4 markerlight is not BAD by any means), but the few shots do the job properly. and unlike the IG flashlights they dont die from a sneeze.

4-sure they seek cover, but you cant cover everything in an army not desigend to do so! (and marines don't design thier lists for cover, because they dont need it as much as xenos.)
they will have to be out in the open SOMETIMES if they want to move, just position yourself properly to take advantage of "terrain holes"

5-I dont "plan of pinning" I keep that as an option, the main use is the markerlight and ap3 shots, how hard is that to realise?

6-yes, it rather is a dumb comparison, I just took a random infantry squad at a similar cost, want another comparison? take the glorified fireknife suit and it gets about the same killing power per point, but from 12' rather then 36'.

7-tactical power depends on things other then just killy power, such as mobility, deployment options and how hard is a unit to kill. its an objective game not an elimination match.

8-So you want a single-role unit? fine, get a single role units. but verstile units are there to fix gaps made by the fact you dont know for sure what you will face until its too late to choose. a good army need both specialists and all-purpose units. besides, what would you call the ever-so-popular fireknife if not an all-purpose gun platform? he specialises in nothing and there is a better suit to any possible sitation, the fireknife is considered so good because he always HELPS, unlike others that at time will be worthless, while at other times dominate.

9-again on remora, never tested them out, not the barracuda, I have no clue on them and only wild thoughts as I dont have any forgeworld access in the god-forsaken land and as such never bother at learning how to use them and what is good or not, I am not even sure how much each costs and how is it equipped (the ones in the "forgeworld update" pdf I do know however, as they are so acessable to read and learn about.)

10-or maybe you CANT you the same stratagies to "making my awesome units even more awesome" because said "awesome units" lack some combination of features or akward ruling that allow the complex and subtle stratageys to work from the firstplace?


I have no idea whats going on at your local gaming shop, but around here-spamming does not work unless the unit you spam is OP from the firstplace (see wraiths, necron air, and gk for comparison)
I did not win games by being a predictable spammer, but by crushing the very same "correct" playstyles by using all the "worng" units in all the "wrong" ways, and they usually never see it coming.

I wont go as far as fielding vespids or skyrays, because they fail at their own niche, but abusing niche units that the crowd is probably going to be unequipped to face is proper list building, not copying the same washed out spam list that works so perfectly on paper that it utterly fails the tabletop, because everyone see it coming and already have a plan to handle it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
1-its hard to stop an enemy squad from reaching to an objective withing 6' of his own deployment when they start the game in a transport, not even a trio of russes could never stop them from GETTING there, the question is what happens afterwards-and these guys were stuck in place. they did stop them from doing anything else, including shooting at anything more valuable then stealth gun drones. (they took out an amazing 1 the entire game)

The point is you claimed that the sniper drones were awesome because they kept an enemy unit hidden behind terrain, but in reality your opponent wanted them hidden behind that terrain to secure the objective. The sniper drones accomplished absolutely nothing, they didn't kill anything, and they didn't keep anything from getting to where it wanted to be.

it was not "must not lose a model" mode, it was "these guys move and they are freaking DEAD" mode.

Err, no. A sniper drone squad kills about one marine per turn even without cover. That's not "wipe the squad" level of firepower, it's "oh well, pull off another meatshield". Newbies will easily be scared by that possibility, but veteran players will just accept the casualties and get the job done.

2-I never said broadsides are BAD, just that you dont NEED so many any more, and it opens new options. and I dont know what 40K YOU are playing, but less tanks are driving around these days. (not tank-free, and as such I still take my fair share if braodsides, but no longer a tank for every 300 points) broadsides are GREAY units, but NOT the effective answer to anything, plus they are freaking EXPENSIVE, with a single broadside usually costing as much or more then a sniper team.

Of course they cost more, because they're more effective. Consider the snipers vs. a plasma Broadside of equal cost: the Broadside kills just as many marines at up to 24", more marines under 12", and has anti-vehicle railguns to fill the vital anti-tank role. Even at the niche role of killing cover-less marines the snipers are worse, and the Broadside is actually the multi-role unit

3-few shots, and not great on accuracy (decent though, BS3 with a S4 markerlight is not BAD by any means), but the few shots do the job properly. and unlike the IG flashlights they dont die from a sneeze.

The point is that they DON'T do the job properly. Even lasguns, the worst infantry weapon in the game, are more point-efficient than sniper drones. And that's ignoring the heavy weapons the squad will have. If you consider an actual IG squad at 80 points the sniper drones are just laughably bad.

4-sure they seek cover, but you cant cover everything in an army not desigend to do so! (and marines don't design thier lists for cover, because they dont need it as much as xenos.)
they will have to be out in the open SOMETIMES if they want to move, just position yourself properly to take advantage of "terrain holes"

Except most of the time "take advantage of terrain holes" means "put YOUR unit out in the open". I don't think I need to explain why it's a bad idea to put sniper drones out in the open, do I?

7-tactical power depends on things other then just killy power, such as mobility, deployment options and how hard is a unit to kill. its an objective game not an elimination match.

It doesn't just depend on killy power, but a unit with no killy power is not a good one. It doesn't matter if a unit is hard to kill if it can't claim objectives and can't offer enough firepower that anyone would ever bother shooting at it, for example.

9-again on remora, never tested them out, not the barracuda, I have no clue on them and only wild thoughts as I dont have any forgeworld access in the god-forsaken land and as such never bother at learning how to use them and what is good or not, I am not even sure how much each costs and how is it equipped (the ones in the "forgeworld update" pdf I do know however, as they are so acessable to read and learn about.)

So why the hell are you offering an opinion on the unit if you don't have any clue what its rules are?

I have no idea whats going on at your local gaming shop, but around here-spamming does not work unless the unit you spam is OP from the firstplace (see wraiths, necron air, and gk for comparison)
I did not win games by being a predictable spammer, but by crushing the very same "correct" playstyles by using all the "worng" units in all the "wrong" ways, and they usually never see it coming.

IOW, if you ignore the spam lists that spam good units and only consider the ones that spam bad units, spam lists are bad. Congratulations on stating the obvious?

 Peregrine wrote:

Or I could just take all that complex and subtle strategy that makes a weak unit decent and spend it on making my awesome units even more awesome. Tau are no different than any other codex, the way to win games most efficiently is to find the best units in the book and bring as many of them as you can.

(And yes, I play Tau.)

Best at what?

GT lists consistently DON'T have three ofs in heavy support, elites, fast attack (and they frequently don't take all the same troops either). How do you explain that? They should just fill all three slots with the best unit, right?

Here's an example of why that is. A regular ork battlewagon (being the same points value of a 5 man tac squad) can sit on an objective in a Big Guns Never Tire mission, while being hard to destroy (4 hp, front av 14). You can use that to a tactical advantage, forcing you enemy to attack it even though, as you said, it wouldn't normally shoot at it because it doesn't have any "killyness." Then, spend those points that you could have spent on upgrading the battlewagon (that is going to die eventually anyway, if your opponent wants to win) on taking more units, giving your opponent more targets to shoot at.

Because I know you'll say that winning GT lists contain three-ofs all the time, I'll preempt you by attaching what Best General took in the most recent GT:

HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker
Elites1: Wolf Guard x4, 4x Terminator Armor, 4x Powerfist
Elites2: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Elites3: Lone Wolf, Terminator Armor, Stormshield, Chainfist
Troops1: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Wolf Standard
Troops2: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Wolf Standard
Troops3: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Plasma, Wolf Standard
Troops4: Grey Hunters x10, 2x Melta, Wolf Standard
Troops5: Grey Hunters x5, Flamer
Troops(Guard):
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad

You'll notice a few of these units are considered "bad" on a power scale. Also, because he took guard he had the option taking some great killy units (including the best fliers), but chose not to.

GT lists consistently DON'T have three ofs in heavy support, elites, fast attack (and they frequently don't take all the same troops either). How do you explain that? They should just fill all three slots with the best unit, right?

Because sometimes there isn't a singular "best unit" that you automatically take three of in a particular slot. Sometimes there are multiple top-tier units of equal power, and a 2/1 split gives a better result. However, that doesn't address my general point that you always find your best unitS and build your list around them, you don't pick weaker units and try to come up with a strategy to make them less weak.

You'll notice a few of these units are considered "bad" on a power scale. Also, because he took guard he had the option taking some great killy units (including the best fliers), but chose not to.

Sigh. That list again. How about before you post it as an example of a good list you try to understand how the house rules NOVA uses completely change the game and how that list is designed to take advantage of those house rules?