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But... what? Sure there's some similarities... but isn't this more naivety than concerted effort to mislead?
...snippet:
Watergate caught numerous public officials lying, including the president of the United States, but Benghazigate has all that and more.
It involves the terrorist murder (not an electorally irrelevant burglary) of government officials, their reckless endangerment, the undermining of the Bill of Rights and free speech by our own administration in response to Islamist threats, and, ultimately, the complicity of that same administration, consciously or unconsciously, in the downfall of Western civilization.
Meanwhile, the mainstream media function as their more-than-willing accomplices in this downfall, in essence as Obama’s court eunuchs.
For over forty years now, the Watergate scandal — the June 1972 break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters and the subsequent cover-up by the Nixon administration — has been the sine qua non of American political malfeasance. It has been followed by myriad other “gates” affecting both parties but has never been superseded.
Until now.
Benghazi or Benghazigate, as some call it, is worse. Far worse. Incomparably worse.
Watergate caught numerous public officials lying, including the president of the United States, but Benghazigate has all that and more.
It involves the terrorist murder (not an electorally irrelevant burglary) of government officials, their reckless endangerment, the undermining of the Bill of Rights and free speech by our own administration in response to Islamist threats, and, ultimately, the complicity of that same administration, consciously or unconsciously, in the downfall of Western civilization.
Meanwhile, the mainstream media function as their more-than-willing accomplices in this downfall, in essence as Obama’s court eunuchs.
Sound excessive?
Hear me out.
But first a word from Democratic pollster Pat Caddell, who evidently feels the same way:
First of all, we’ve had 9 days of lies.…If a president of either party…had had a terrorist incident and gotten on an airplane [after remarks] and flown off to a fundraiser in Las Vegas, they would have been crucified…it should have been, should have been, the equivalent, for Barack Obama, of George Bush’s “flying over Katrina” moment. But nothing was said at all. Nothing will be said. [...] It is [unacceptable] to specifically decide that you will not tell the American people information they have a right to know. [The MSM] has made themselves the enemy of the American people. It is a threat to the very future of the country; we’ve crossed a new and frightening line on the slippery slope, and it needs to be talked about. (h/t: The Anchoress)
Not to mention Democratic pundit Kirsten Powers:
There are so many unanswered questions, not just about Libya, but also about Cairo. Who is it that Rice thinks “widely disseminated” this “movie?” Surely she can’t believe that the Egyptian Coptic Christian who made the video had the capacity or even desire to put it in the hands of the people who did the inciting. Also, has the administration noticed that the mob in Cairo, so spontaneously upset about the video, just happened to be carrying an Islamist flag to hoist over our embassy? On 9/11. What a massive coincidence…. They say curiosity killed the cat. In this case, lack of curiosity on the part of the American media very well may kill more Americans. (h/t: Hot Air)
And so on. There’s more at both of these links. Watergate is child’s play by comparison.
What really is going on here? Terrorism and rioting broke out all over the Muslim world on 9/11. What caused it? We thought Osama bin Laden was supposed to be dead. But apparently the assassination of bin Laden meant little. Actually, only an idiot would think otherwise.
(“Obama, Obama, we are all Osama!” Evidently.)
Obviously, an ideology is at play — a gigantic, uncompromising ideology — that our government refuses to confront or even recognize. And our media, with a few exceptions, barely looks at it either. Nevertheless, a direct line exists from the denial of Islamic influence in the Ft. Hood massacre (even though Major Hasan yelled “Allahu Akbar” in the process of killing or maiming forty-two of his fellow soldiers) and what occurred in Benghazi, Cairo, and elsewhere.
Our government, more than ever under Obama, has never named our enemy, making it all the more likely that enemy will engulf us. Indeed, as has been described here at PJ Media, government directives exist to avoid imputation of Islamic or even Islamist terror motivation by the State Department, Defense Department, or the FBI.
You could say that is appeasement. Unfortunately, I am beginning to think it is more than that. It is, on the part of some, intentional.
We can trace that back, among other places, to Obama’s famous Cairo speech. That speech was naïve, yes, but even more it was subversive in its intentions. Obama wanted to make outreach to and common cause with an Islamic culture that is misogynistic, homophobic, and in favor of the ascendancy of religious Sharia law over state law across a globe ruled by an Islamic caliphate — in other words, against the very fabric of everything on which this country was founded, not to mention Western civilization, the Enlightenment, etc.
Think of that, my fellow Americans. That is what Barack Obama did on our behalf — and the media lapped up unquestioningly.
Liberals, most of all, you would think would abhor this. But they don’t. They have been brainwashed out of their ideology — that is, assuming they ever had one.
And that, of course, is the work our media. They say Islam is a “shame culture,” but we have become one too. Our media is too ashamed to admit they made a mistake about Barack Obama, so ashamed they are willing to look the other way at every occasion.
So what do we do if, as Pat Caddell says, channeling Ibsen, the MSM is the new “enemy of the people”? How do we respond? Well, we yell and scream as loud as we can, for one thing. That’s what I’m attempting to do now.
In his 1978 book The Fate of Empires and the Search for Survival, Sir John Glubb describes the life cycle of empires in seven stages. Part 7 is “The age of decline and collapse.” I don’t want to think we’ve reached that point. I’m going all in — at least for a few more weeks — to try and disrupt the message.
So say it loud and say it proud: Benghazi worse than Watergate! (Maybe our countrymen will hear us.)
Facts are still coming out and the sequence of events is still being analyzed. One thing is for sure: comparing Benghazi to Watergate is a stupid, stupid thing to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 17:38:49
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Facts are still coming out and the sequence of events is still being analyzed. One thing is for sure: comparing Benghazi to Watergate is a stupid, stupid thing to do.
.
True... the Watergate comparison is a head scratcher...
I think at worst, it's incompentence and naivety than anything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 17:43:30
Facts are still coming out and the sequence of events is still being analyzed. One thing is for sure: comparing Benghazi to Watergate is a stupid, stupid thing to do.
.
True... the Watergate comparison is a head scratcher...
I think at worst, it's incompentence and naivety than anything.
Shouldnt need to scratch heads too long over this one. If Obama can be made to look really bad over Benghazi then he may look worse than Romney in November.
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The killing of the US ambassador to Libya is rapidly becoming election fodder, as Republicans seize on confusion over the circumstances of Chris Stevens' death in Benghazi three weeks ago and accuse the Obama administration of covering up an al-Qaeda connection.
US officials reiterated on on Friday that they regard the killing of Stevens and three other Americans working for the state department at the US consulate in Benghazi as an assault by terrorists who planned the attack. But a dearth of real information about the exact circumstances of the assault has left open the question of whether such planning was merely the work of a few hours, to take advantage of a spontaneous anti-US protest over a short internet video that prompted demonstrations across the Middle East by offended Muslims, or weeks and months, to mark the 11th anniversary of al-Qaeda's 9/11 attacks on the US.
Disagreement over that question is dividing along political lines.
Earlier this week, Republican senators wrote to the US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, demanding that she explain her statement, five days after the killings, that they were part of a spontaneous anti-US protest. Four senators signed the letter, including John McCain, which said Rice made "several troubling statements that are inconsistent with the facts and require explanation".
The former New York mayor Rudolf Giuliani, who sought the Republican nomination for the presidency in 2008, went further, accusing the White House of a cover-up.
Speaking to Fox News, Giuliani said: "This is a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth, from an administration that claimed it wanted to be the most transparent in history. And it's the worst kind of cover-up: the kind of cover-up that involves our national security. This is a cover-up that involves the slaughter of four Americans."
Rice's explanation of a spontaneous assault by a well-armed Libyan militia was maintained by the administration until 10 days ago when Matthew Olsen, director of the National Counterterrorism Centre, called the killings a terrorist attack.
Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, and the defence secretary, Leon Panetta, this week shifted away from the initial line. Clinton on Wednesday hinted that the al-Qaeda offshoot in North Africa may be tied up with the Benghazi assault.
"Now with a larger safe haven and increased freedom to manoeuvre, terrorists are seeking to extend their reach and their networks in multiple directions," Clinton told a meeting of international leaders at the UN which discussed the crisis in North Africa, including the seizure of northern Mali by armed Islamist forces. "And they are working with other violent extremists to undermine the democratic transitions under way in North Africa, as we tragically saw in Benghazi."
Administration officials were careful to say afterwards that Clinton was not claiming firm evidence of a link. Olsen was similarly cautious in speaking to senators this week.
"The picture that is emerging is one where a number of different individuals were involved, so it's not necessarily an either/or proposition," he said.
Officials say that while there is some evidence that individual members of the local militia responsible for the attack, Ansar al-Shariah, may have been in touch with extremist elements in other countries, no hard information has so far emerged of a direct foreign or al-Qaeda link to the attack in Benghazi.
The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Martin Dempsey, on Thursday said there "was a thread of intelligence reporting that groups in the environment in eastern Libya were seeking to coalesce but there wasn't anything specific". He added that there was no intelligence indicating a looming attack.
Officials say US intelligence picked up a call by a member of al-Qaeda in North Africa celebrating the attack, but that is not hard evidence of a link.
Panetta said on Thursday that there was some preplanning involved in the assault.
"As we determined the details of what took place [in Benghazi], and how that attack took place it became clear that there were terrorists who had planned that attack," he said.
But whether that was over the proceeding hours, when the militia realised it could take advantage of the existing protest outside the consulate, or over the previous days and weeks remains a question investigators are struggling to answer. At present, the Americans are unable even to establish how large the protest was and how long it went on.
Administration officials continue to maintain that if there was preplanning, it was not long term. But some Republicans argue that there is already evidence, circumstantial and otherwise, of a plot. For a start, they say it is no coincidence that the assault on the Benghazi consulate was on 11 September...
Anyway, that article has a good overview. The guy you started with is a gak-thrower and his time would be better employed doing highway and bridge reconstruction work.
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The reason IMO, that Watergate is way worse than this so-called "scandal" is that trying to screw over the democratic process and then lying about it is an actual danger to a democratic society, as opposed to explaining that the US does not agree with the views of a gakky movie, which is the proper thing to do in such a situation.
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dogma wrote: I like how "Al-Qaeda" is still being used as a buzz word.
?? what do you mean by that?
Are you referring to the "Al Qaeda-linked" group? Things like that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The reason IMO, that Watergate is way worse than this so-called "scandal" is that trying to screw over the democratic process and then lying about it is an actual danger to a democratic society, as opposed to explaining that the US does not agree with the views of a gakky movie, which is the proper thing to do in such a situation.
So... you think subverting a democratic process is worst than a potential coverup for the reason the lead to the death of 4 American?
Remember, they're still investigating this...
So, if it comes out that all these administration responses where due to "lets not do this that'll make Obama look bad because of the upcoming election"... then, there's a problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 18:20:05
dogma wrote: I like how "Al-Qaeda" is still being used as a buzz word.
Al Qaeda is still a rather large, but disorganized group today. It has many factions spread throughout the middle-east/africa/central asia. It's hardly a "buzz word".
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The reason IMO, that Watergate is way worse than this so-called "scandal" is that trying to screw over the democratic process and then lying about it is an actual danger to a democratic society, as opposed to explaining that the US does not agree with the views of a gakky movie, which is the proper thing to do in such a situation.
Whether or not the US agrees with the views of a gakky movie has nothing at all to do with why the piece Whembly linked to compares this to Watergate.
The concern is that the administration seems to have clearly known this was not a protest gone wrong, but instead a planned act of terrorism, within twenty-four hours of the event occurring, yet continued to insist, publicly, that it was the former. There are also allegations that the ambassador was concerned/dissatisfied with the security available at the consulate, and a growing consensus that we were far too cavalier with security in Libya in general. All of which, it is alleged, the administration is trying to sweep under the rug, because foreign policy is currently Obama's biggest selling point.
dogma wrote: I like how "Al-Qaeda" is still being used as a buzz word.
?? what do you mean by that?
Are you referring to the "Al Qaeda-linked" group? Things like that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The reason IMO, that Watergate is way worse than this so-called "scandal" is that trying to screw over the democratic process and then lying about it is an actual danger to a democratic society, as opposed to explaining that the US does not agree with the views of a gakky movie, which is the proper thing to do in such a situation.
So... you think subverting a democratic process is worst than a potential coverup for the reason the lead to the death of 4 American?
Remember, they're still investigating this...
So, if it comes out that all these administration responses where due to "lets not do this that'll make Obama look bad because of the upcoming election"... then, there's a problem.
Bingo. Whether or not the administration could have taken steps to prevent the attack still has to be resolved, but all indications were that the administration knew a lot about what happened, and were yet still touting the line that this was not a preplanned attack for several days after that. They were spreading misinformation. I won't use the term lies yet, because it may be plausible to the intel director was trying to cover his own ass as well, not giving the rest of the admin the story.
I for one though do not have a hard time believing that a President who has made a career out of campaigning would think of what was best for his campaign first.
What? The information we have says that within the intelligence community, some folks were discussing it as a terrorist attack and/or labeling it as such, at least to unlock specific resources which are reserved for use in investigating terrorism.
The administration recognized that there was a lack of information about exactly what happened, and their repeated and (mostly) consistent comments, were that they didn't want to commit to summarizing it as one specific label until they had more information. It does look like at a couple of points (like Rice's comments) one person or another was slightly inconsistent with their phrasing. But that doesn't make this a cover up. It looks to me like there was a protest, and a terrorist attack which used that protest as cover for their strike. Initially that was one of the theories, which some of the intelligence personnel were investigating, alongside the possibility that the violence had grown from the protest and was not a pre-planned terrorist action. Remember that Libya just had a revolution, and a lot of their militia personnel may have access to military weapons like RPGs.
whembly wrote: K... Ragnar... did you watch the Brett Beier piece?
What about it? It doesn't contain any particularly different information than the article I linked, although the video includes comments from at least one or two unidentified people.
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whembly wrote: K... Ragnar... did you watch the Brett Beier piece?
What about it? It doesn't contain any particularly different information than the article I linked, although the video includes comments from at least one or two unidentified people.
I just thought it was a nice summary... that's all. It really shows that there's a lot more unanswered questions here...
Mannahnin wrote: What? The information we have says that within the intelligence community, some folks were discussing it as a terrorist attack and/or labeling it as such, at least to unlock specific resources which are reserved for use in investigating terrorism.
The administration recognized that there was a lack of information about exactly what happened, and their repeated and (mostly) consistent comments, were that they didn't want to commit to summarizing it as one specific label until they had more information. It does look like at a couple of points (like Rice's comments) one person or another was slightly inconsistent with their phrasing. But that doesn't make this a cover up. It looks to me like there was a protest, and a terrorist attack which used that protest as cover for their strike. Initially that was one of the theories, which some of the intelligence personnel were investigating, alongside the possibility that the violence had grown from the protest and was not a pre-planned terrorist action. Remember that Libya just had a revolution, and a lot of their militia personnel may have access to military weapons like RPGs.
Nope.
They knew it was a terrorist attack immediately afterwards. They'd tracked the culprits immediately afterwards. Rice's comments weren't "inconsistent," they were outright false based on information had at the time they were made. Either someone didn't tell her, or...
Also, quit with the protest bit. There wasn't one. Libya's said it, our intel guys have said it.
Al Qaeda is still a rather large, but disorganized group today. It has many factions spread throughout the middle-east/africa/central asia. It's hardly a "buzz word".
Indeed, it is large and disorganized. So large and disorganized that it is no longer a group. Many terrorist groups just call themselves "Al-Qaeda" because it means the West will give them credence. Of course Al-Qaeda is fine with this because it cuts both ways*.
What is generally being discussed when we discuss "Al-Qaeda" are general terrorists. The name is a buzz word because it draws attention, and that is why it is used.
*Media presence means more money from donors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/29 19:21:47
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Mannahnin wrote: What? The information we have says that within the intelligence community, some folks were discussing it as a terrorist attack and/or labeling it as such, at least to unlock specific resources which are reserved for use in investigating terrorism.
The administration recognized that there was a lack of information about exactly what happened, and their repeated and (mostly) consistent comments, were that they didn't want to commit to summarizing it as one specific label until they had more information. It does look like at a couple of points (like Rice's comments) one person or another was slightly inconsistent with their phrasing. But that doesn't make this a cover up. It looks to me like there was a protest, and a terrorist attack which used that protest as cover for their strike. Initially that was one of the theories, which some of the intelligence personnel were investigating, alongside the possibility that the violence had grown from the protest and was not a pre-planned terrorist action. Remember that Libya just had a revolution, and a lot of their militia personnel may have access to military weapons like RPGs.
Nope.
They knew it was a terrorist attack immediately afterwards. They'd tracked the culprits immediately afterwards. Rice's comments weren't "inconsistent," they were outright false based on information had at the time they were made. Either someone didn't tell her, or...
You have the facts backward. Rice was inconsistent in that at one point she said it WAS a terrorist attack, when the day after that Obama was still saying they weren't sure. Edit: I apologize. I misremembered. She did say it was a spontaneous attack. That does look bad. I don't think it's indicative of a deliberate cover-up, though. It was still four days after the attack, and early in the investigation.
By "tracking the culprits" do you mean people involved in the protest, people who entered the compound, people who fired RPGs, people who specifically and directly killed Chris Stevens or the other Americans there? I have no doubt that intelligence services were tracking at least some of these people very quickly after the incident. Whether they knew exactly who did what and who was part of a terrorist organization immediately seems unlikely.
Seaward wrote: Also, quit with the protest bit. There wasn't one. Libya's said it, our intel guys have said it.
Please provide a good source for this claim. Even the Fox video Whembly posted says there was a protest going on first.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/29 19:36:54
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Seaward wrote: Edit: I apologize. I misremembered. She did say it was a spontaneous attack. That does look bad. I don't think it's indicative of a deliberate cover-up, though. It was still four days after the attack, and early in the investigation.
By "tracking the culprits" do you mean people involved in the protest, people who entered the compound, people who fired RPGs, people who specifically and directly killed Chris Stevens or the other Americans there? I have no doubt that intelligence services were tracking at least some of these people very quickly after the incident. Whether they knew exactly who did what and who was part of a terrorist organization immediately seems unlikely.
By "tracking the culprits" I mean the group responsible for the attack - according to intelligence sources, they had a good idea of who was responsible for it within the first twenty-four hours. They were not tracking protesters, because it's extremely doubtful that there was a protest.
]Please provide a good source for this claim. Even the Fox video Whembly posted says there was a protest going on first.
Its a bit more complicated than that. The Libyan President is claiming that there were no protesters prior to the attack, and the guard is claiming the same. The narrative being disputed is that the attack grew out of the protest, but what appears to be the case is that the protest was organized in order to screen the attack.
There's also an issue regarding commentary on the event because people frequently the Libyan case with the Egyptian one.
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dogma wrote: Its a bit more complicated than that. The Libyan President is claiming that there were no protesters prior to the attack, and the guard is claiming the same. The narrative being disputed is that the attack grew out of the protest, but what appears to be the case is that the protest was organized in order to screen the attack.
There's also an issue regarding commentary on the event because people frequently the Libyan case with the Egyptian one.
That doesn't seem to be the case, no.
The guard is saying there was no protest, period - that everyone who came to the compound was an attacker. The other sources do not dispute that, saying it was purely an attack, and that there was no protest.
The guard is saying there was no protest, period...
No he isn't, come off it:
“....there wasn’t a single ant outside,” he said – until about 9:35 p.m., when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions.
That doesn't mean there was no protest, it means that any protest which occurred was based on the attack. There weren't 125 armed men unless "armed" means holding rocks. 125 men with assault weapons and/or RPG7s means that a building ceases to exist. I also wonder why he picked "125" given that he had to estimate a time.
He doesn't know what happened and is giving answers because he's being pressed and doesn't know what else to do.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
The guard is saying there was no protest, period...
No he isn't, come off it:
“....there wasn’t a single ant outside,” he said – until about 9:35 p.m., when as many as 125 armed men descended on the compound from all directions.
That doesn't mean there was no protest, it means that any protest which occurred was based on the attack. There weren't 125 armed men unless "armed" means holding rocks. 125 men with assault weapons and/or RPG7s means that a building ceases to exist. I also wonder why he picked "125" given that he had to estimate a time.
He doesn't know what happened and is giving answers because he's being pressed and doesn't know what else to do.
Just so we're clear, there's not a single eye witness account of a protest taking place at any point at or near the consulate, before, during, or after the attack. There are multiple eye witness accounts directly stating that there was no protest.
Is it possible there was a protest and no one noticed? Yes. It is also possible there is a protest going on outside my house right now and I just haven't noticed it yet. Anything is possible. "Likely" is a whole other story.
dogma wrote: I like how "Al-Qaeda" is still being used as a buzz word.
Its become almost synonymous with terrorist. Not just in the media either some pretty legit analysts in the .mil have used AQ or AQI to bring attention to reports about groups that clearly have no ties whatsoever to Al Qaeda.
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Worst case this was a deliberate and coordinated attack by anti-American elements in Libya, and an official in the State Department may have knowingly framed it as something else?
Yeah, who cares?
This goes with Fast and Furious in "scandals" that don't really have any there there once you actually know all the facts.
Here's my quick take: The State Department probably didn't want to come out and say "TERRORIST ATTACK" without all the evidence to back it up since there was literally nothing to gain from doing so, outside of legitimizing the attack and potentially alienating potential friends of the United States in Libya.
But, yeah, I hope the Right keeps bringing this up and gets upset by it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 22:24:58
Fast and Furious was a legit scandal. This looks iffy, at least. There's legitimate grounds for people being suspicious and wanting more answers and more openness from the administration. I don't think there's necessarily enough info to justify screams of "cover up", but I can definitely understand why alarm bells are sounding for some folks, more than just partisan politics.
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DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++ A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Kind of you to say, but I do certainly make mistakes; one of which Seaward pointed out.
I do try to look honestly at the data in front of me, though, and I don't have a problem calling something a Dem or a Dem administration does as shameful or shady if it appears so to me. There are reasons why I'm Independent and not a Dem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 22:19:04
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++ A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
