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I like to refer to the primarchs of the Alpha Legion and the entire legion collectively as 'Hydra'


Hydra sided with Horus simply to destroy chaos. Horus would have had a massive guilt trip had he won, and attacked his new chaos followers, then they would dissolve into infighting, destroy all of humanity and chaos would cease to exist without the emotions to fuel it.

 ineptus astartes wrote:
I like to refer to the primarchs of the Alpha Legion and the entire legion collectively as 'Hydra'


Hydra sided with Horus simply to destroy chaos. Horus would have had a massive guilt trip had he won, and attacked his new chaos followers, then they would dissolve into infighting, destroy all of humanity and chaos would cease to exist without the emotions to fuel it.

I assume this is all fanon, since it seems completely speculative, and there's no telling what the Alpha Legion's goals were by siding with Horus during the Heresy.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 ineptus astartes wrote:
I like to refer to the primarchs of the Alpha Legion and the entire legion collectively as 'Hydra'


Hydra sided with Horus simply to destroy chaos. Horus would have had a massive guilt trip had he won, and attacked his new chaos followers, then they would dissolve into infighting, destroy all of humanity and chaos would cease to exist without the emotions to fuel it.

I assume this is all fanon, since it seems completely speculative, and there's no telling what the Alpha Legion's goals were by siding with Horus during the Heresy.

Read Legion

Things I remember from Alpha Legion were from a White Dwarf article. Back when White Dwarf was good, they had a string of months where they selected a Legion and did background stuff about the Primarch and Legion.

Homeworld is unknown. Alpharius was "found" when Imperial ships were attacked by a fleet of small ships in an asteroid belt. I can't remember why the battle was called off, but the Imperium realized it was the last primarch Alpharius. (no mention of twin)

They were the last Legion so always felt they had to prove themselves.

Alpharius refers to the Alpha Legion as a Hydra (even uses symbol) because he wanted his marines to be self sufficient. So that if Leadership was destroyed during a battle each marine unit could still operate. Alpharius was known to "disappear" during important battles to force Marines into this way of thinking. He wanted multiple heads to his Legion.

When the Ultra Marine landed and attempted to battle the Alpha Legion after the Horus Heresy, Alpha Legion painted themselves like Ultra Marines and ambushed Gulliman. Causing his fatal injury.

Hydra Dominatus!"

I am Alpharus

I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 ineptus astartes wrote:
I like to refer to the primarchs of the Alpha Legion and the entire legion collectively as 'Hydra'


Hydra sided with Horus simply to destroy chaos. Horus would have had a massive guilt trip had he won, and attacked his new chaos followers, then they would dissolve into infighting, destroy all of humanity and chaos would cease to exist without the emotions to fuel it.

I assume this is all fanon, since it seems completely speculative, and there's no telling what the Alpha Legion's goals were by siding with Horus during the Heresy.

Read Legion

I did read Legion, thanks. Though it was a quite while ago (in 2008, I think?) and I could probably do with a reread, since I don't remember them ever saying "Sure Cabal, we'll destroy Chaos." From what I do recall with their meeting with the Cabal, I always thought that their "first outcome" was speculative and somewhat false. It's unlikely that the destruction of the human race would have destroyed Chaos. After all, it was the Eldar that birthed Slaanesh, not humanity, and there's plenty of reason to believe that Chaos would exist without the presence of humanity. I think the Cabal's plan was to get rid of the humans, not Chaos. After all, with the Great Crusade, more and more Xenos populations were falling to the Imperium. The Eldar and other Xenos races of the Cabal had every reason to want humanity out of the picture. I think Alpharius Omegon may have picked up on this deceit, joining Horus for a whole other reason, not the reasoning of a Xenos Cabal. What reason would Alpharius have to side with the words of any Xenos, much less an Eldar? They're experts in secrets and lies, and to claim knowledge of their true motivations is a stretch.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 ineptus astartes wrote:
I like to refer to the primarchs of the Alpha Legion and the entire legion collectively as 'Hydra'


Hydra sided with Horus simply to destroy chaos. Horus would have had a massive guilt trip had he won, and attacked his new chaos followers, then they would dissolve into infighting, destroy all of humanity and chaos would cease to exist without the emotions to fuel it.

I assume this is all fanon, since it seems completely speculative, and there's no telling what the Alpha Legion's goals were by siding with Horus during the Heresy.

Read Legion

That's what the Cabal told Alpharius. Since we do not know ( and thankfully Abnett kept it ambiguous ) what the Cabal's motives were and if Alpharius followed their advice, there is no way to determine the Alpha Legion's motivation for joining the Warmaster and later, waging the long war. Of course, the idea that the dark gods would be destroyed by wiping out humanity is by itself highly speculative given the nature of the warp and it's denizens as well as the mere fact that even the great crusade neither discovered all human cultures in the galaxy nor did it manage to wipe out all sentient alien life.

 LoneLictor wrote:
I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

Harriticus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

No, it's not just out of CSM. It's out of all the Legions, both loyalist and traitor. In their earlier fluff, it talked about how the Ultramarines hated the Alpha Legion because... they used unorthodox tactics. That's it. The Ultramarines hated them for not being predictable. So poorly written.

And if you take away the Alpha Legion's only theme (not being stupid), then they have nothing. They're just a really bland group of dudes who like Hydras, and despite being hyped up as super intelligent, never do anything. At least the Black Legion has the Black Crusades, which are tearing down the Imperium one raid at a time.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

No, it's not just out of CSM. It's out of all the Legions, both loyalist and traitor. In their earlier fluff, it talked about how the Ultramarines hated the Alpha Legion because... they used unorthodox tactics. That's it. The Ultramarines hated them for not being predictable. So poorly written.

And if you take away the Alpha Legion's only theme (not being stupid), then they have nothing. They're just a really bland group of dudes who like Hydras, and despite being hyped up as super intelligent, never do anything. At least the Black Legion has the Black Crusades, which are tearing down the Imperium one raid at a time.

Super intelligent for 40k standards maybe, but really they're just like every black ops group out there. U.S. special forces in Afghanistan in 2001 basically pulled what Alpha Legion does...

Thankfully, I think GW is giving them new niches lately with the release of Legion and further built in Treacheries of the Space Marines. Namely, the whole "shared identity" aspect rather then just special forces infiltrator marines.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

No, it's not just out of CSM. It's out of all the Legions, both loyalist and traitor. In their earlier fluff, it talked about how the Ultramarines hated the Alpha Legion because... they used unorthodox tactics. That's it. The Ultramarines hated them for not being predictable. So poorly written.

And if you take away the Alpha Legion's only theme (not being stupid), then they have nothing. They're just a really bland group of dudes who like Hydras, and despite being hyped up as super intelligent, never do anything. At least the Black Legion has the Black Crusades, which are tearing down the Imperium one raid at a time.

The Ultramarines didn't dislike them for not being predictable. They disliked them because they felt their ways of infiltration, secrecy, sabotage, and subterfuge were dishonorable. If you really think that all there is to the Alpha Legion is "being smart" you clearly haven't read much about the Alpha Legion. They're infiltrators that destroy the enemy from within. They infiltrate the highest echelons of the Imperium in order to tear down the very foundations of the Imperium from the inside. They stir up some of the largest cult uprisings in the Imperium and have even caused rebellions on entire Forge Worlds. The Inquisition regards them as one of the biggest thorns-in-their-side; they've plagued the Imperium for thousands of years with most attempts to eliminate them failing miserably. The Alpha Legion are a lot of things, but "bland" is not one of them. And the Hydra is only symbolic. A reference to the whole "cut off one head and two more shall take its place" thing. It is symbolic of the fact that each individual Legionnaire is a member of one large body set on one goal like the many heads of a Hydra. In all honesty, the Alpha Legion has probably caused more damage to the Imperial infrastructure than 90% of what the Black Crusades have done.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

No, it's not just out of CSM. It's out of all the Legions, both loyalist and traitor. In their earlier fluff, it talked about how the Ultramarines hated the Alpha Legion because... they used unorthodox tactics. That's it. The Ultramarines hated them for not being predictable. So poorly written.

And if you take away the Alpha Legion's only theme (not being stupid), then they have nothing. They're just a really bland group of dudes who like Hydras, and despite being hyped up as super intelligent, never do anything. At least the Black Legion has the Black Crusades, which are tearing down the Imperium one raid at a time.

The Ultramarines didn't dislike them for not being predictable. They disliked them because they felt their ways of infiltration, secrecy, sabotage, and subterfuge were dishonorable. If you really think that all there is to the Alpha Legion is "being smart" you clearly haven't read much about the Alpha Legion. They're infiltrators that destroy the enemy from within. They infiltrate the highest echelons of the Imperium in order to tear down the very foundations of the Imperium from the inside. They stir up some of the largest cult uprisings in the Imperium and have even caused rebellions on entire Forge Worlds. The Inquisition regards them as one of the biggest thorns-in-their-side; they've plagued the Imperium for thousands of years with most attempts to eliminate them failing miserably. The Alpha Legion are a lot of things, but "bland" is not one of them. And the Hydra is only symbolic. A reference to the whole "cut off one head and two more shall take its place" thing. It is symbolic of the fact that each individual Legionnaire is a member of one large body set on one goal like the many heads of a Hydra. In all honesty, the Alpha Legion has probably caused more damage to the Imperial infrastructure than 90% of what the Black Crusades have done.

Why would a force of Space Marines, eight foot tall creatures that are barely human, specialize in infiltration?

"Hey, Tech Adept Bob, why are you an eight foot tall bald dude who's missing all his old robotic limbs? I seem to recall you looking differently yesterday."

"Well uhhh, you see..... HEY LOOK OVER THERE!"

Also, give a specific account of the Alpha Legion doing damage. We know the Black Crusades have done damage, and they've been established as the 'Greatest Threat' to the Imperium. What has the Alpha Legion done? Lemme think...

They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Why would a force of Space Marines, eight foot tall creatures that are barely human, specialize in infiltration?

"Hey, Tech Adept Bob, why are you an eight foot tall bald dude who's missing all his old robotic limbs? I seem to recall you looking differently yesterday."

"Well uhhh, you see..... HEY LOOK OVER THERE!"

Also, give a specific account of the Alpha Legion doing damage. We know the Black Crusades have done damage, and they've been established as the 'Greatest Threat' to the Imperium. What has the Alpha Legion done? Lemme think...

They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

They use psychic mind-clouding to disguise themselves as normal humans. Only psychic-sensitives would be able to detect them being non-human. As far as the Battle of Terra goes, not much went according to plan for any of the traitor forces regarding the Space Wolves. This also could have been part of Alpharius' plans, since we aren't really sure what was going through his head during the Heresy. It's also reasonable to assume that that fluff is subject to change as it was written before a lot of the more recent Alpha Legion fluff. There's a lot of people (myself and the Ultramarines themselves included), that believe Alpharius wasn't actually killed. It's been theorized that it was a proxy used to deceive Guilliman into thinking it was Alpharius. Alpharius has a history of doing that. The events on Quintus and Zoran were both in a single (rather poorly written, in my opinion) book. Since the entire concept of the book is them chasing after an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince (which is a bit contradictory to a lot of precedent Alpha Legion fluff), I don't really regard these as very significant. To me, it's like arguing someone could destroy a Falcon with rocks and sticks because C.S. Goto made it happen. This was a case of bad writing, in my opinion, but fair enough. The Alphas on Vraks were a splinter war band called "The Faithless". Since Arkos was an avid Chaos worshiper that let himself get possessed by demons, his campaign on Vraks was hardly a good reflection of the Legion. The Tartarus campaign was a product of C.S. Goto. That's my argument for that one.


To me, there's a bit of an Oldcron/Newcron thing going on with the Alpha Legion. A lot of the stuff written about Alpha Legion before Dan Abnett's awesome book is contradictory to what Dan Abnett established. The "Oldcron" Alpha's were kind of derp, and I will agree, didn't do much. However, the "Newcron" way Dan Abnett has written them is much more interesting, and if you haven't read Legion, I definitely recommend you pick it up. It puts a whole new light on the Legion. They're not really "Chaos" Marines like they used to be. Their motivations and machinations are relatively unknown but for hints and pokes.

As far as stuff the Alpha Legion has done, here you go:
- Destroying the Crimson Consuls
- Destroying the Emperor's Swords
- Proceeded to destroy most of the Ultramarines after Guilliman "killed" Alpharius.


A lot of the theme of the Alpha Legion is that we don't really know what they're doing. There could be a cult uprising somewhere that's directly caused by the Alpha Legion, and we don't know about it; and that's just how they want it. The Alpha Legion are not glory hogs, and therefore try to keep their efforts low-profile. They're a mysterious bunch. They're not about the all-out-warfare like Abaddon and his Black Crusades. They prefer a more subtle approach. Claiming that they aren't "successful" because they don't do all-out-bloodletting-warfare is unfair, I think. After all, they're successful enough that the Inquisition is constantly making concerted efforts to get rid of them (and failing) and the High Lords of Terra seem particularly loathing of them. For all we know, one of the High Lords could be a Legionnaire. Who knows how deep the corruption spawned by the Alpha Legion runs? Not I. That's what's appealing about them. They embody "The Threat Within".



I Am Alpharius.

Legion sucked and it made the Alpha Legion look really bland, imo. Yeah, the Alpharius/Omegon dynamic is really cool, but what hurt the book is that the Alpha Legion never actually did anything.

It's probably the most disappointing HH book I've read thus far.

- - - - -

Anyway, I like the concept of the Alpha Legion, but they're similar to the Emperor's Children in that they never ever seem to do gak in the fluff.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Also, give a specific account of the Alpha Legion doing damage. We know the Black Crusades have done damage, and they've been established as the 'Greatest Threat' to the Imperium. What has the Alpha Legion done? Lemme think...

They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

My.... God.... Props to what Darth Bob has to say, but putting that aside, your list there lone lictor looks just like http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines#History_of_the_Ultramarines

So from your perspective, they're just the traitor Ultramarines? Ouch!

And yeah, there's a Continuity-Crunch here. However, I would be happy to say that in general, if the Alpha Legion is caught in open battle and defeated, they're probably hella outnumbered, and have tied down significantly more resources than they've spent. I can understand Special Forces insurgency tactics not being cool or appealing - hey, they aren't to everyone - but generally being sensible and playing the long game is not all that exciting. Props to Ben Counter for pointing out in the Soul Drinkers series that Astartes are not soldiers. They're child psychopaths and barbarians, elevated to demigod status and unleashed on the enemy as a weapon of terror. The Alpha Legion are pragmatic and strategic; of course that's pretty boring in a setting where the majority of forces have at least a tiny hint of Khornate thinking colouring their entire strategy.

I suppose they're a sensible force in a galaxy of crazy bitches. Which is a problem, since the majority of 40k tactics and warfare goes against common sense, against practicality and hard sci-fi. I mean, the majority of battles should be BFG; if you win, you take the high orbitals, you vaporise the enemy from space and try not to induce a nuclear winter, game over... Not so cool as DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:I dislike the Alpha Legion's fluff. They're one of my least favorite Legions. You know why? Their theme is being smart. The thing is, all of the Legions should be smart, because they're all led by super-genius Primarchs. So how come AlphariusOmegon are the only guys to ever use an decent tactics?

It actually is pretty funny that what distinguishes Alpha Legion from the other CSM (or SM chapters for that matter) is that they're "smart". Really they're the only ones who could have chance of succeeding. Though the new CSM codex pretty much hypes Black Legion to be unstoppable...

No, it's not just out of CSM. It's out of all the Legions, both loyalist and traitor. In their earlier fluff, it talked about how the Ultramarines hated the Alpha Legion because... they used unorthodox tactics. That's it. The Ultramarines hated them for not being predictable. So poorly written.

And if you take away the Alpha Legion's only theme (not being stupid), then they have nothing. They're just a really bland group of dudes who like Hydras, and despite being hyped up as super intelligent, never do anything. At least the Black Legion has the Black Crusades, which are tearing down the Imperium one raid at a time.

The Ultramarines didn't dislike them for not being predictable. They disliked them because they felt their ways of infiltration, secrecy, sabotage, and subterfuge were dishonorable. If you really think that all there is to the Alpha Legion is "being smart" you clearly haven't read much about the Alpha Legion. They're infiltrators that destroy the enemy from within. They infiltrate the highest echelons of the Imperium in order to tear down the very foundations of the Imperium from the inside. They stir up some of the largest cult uprisings in the Imperium and have even caused rebellions on entire Forge Worlds. The Inquisition regards them as one of the biggest thorns-in-their-side; they've plagued the Imperium for thousands of years with most attempts to eliminate them failing miserably. The Alpha Legion are a lot of things, but "bland" is not one of them. And the Hydra is only symbolic. A reference to the whole "cut off one head and two more shall take its place" thing. It is symbolic of the fact that each individual Legionnaire is a member of one large body set on one goal like the many heads of a Hydra. In all honesty, the Alpha Legion has probably caused more damage to the Imperial infrastructure than 90% of what the Black Crusades have done.

Why would a force of Space Marines, eight foot tall creatures that are barely human, specialize in infiltration?

"Hey, Tech Adept Bob, why are you an eight foot tall bald dude who's missing all his old robotic limbs? I seem to recall you looking differently yesterday."

"Well uhhh, you see..... HEY LOOK OVER THERE!"

Also, give a specific account of the Alpha Legion doing damage. We know the Black Crusades have done damage, and they've been established as the 'Greatest Threat' to the Imperium. What has the Alpha Legion done? Lemme think...

They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

The Alpha Legion has been reported destroyed, wiped out and extinct no less that three times, for one, they all have no 'true names' that they speak of, and most of all, imperial citizens have no knowledge that traitor marines even exist, if a space marine comes, even clad in skulls and doused in blood they're going to throw a party for him until he hauls off and chainaxes somebody. The Alpha legion likely goes further, disguising themselves as loyalists and just marching up to the governors palace, cheered on by imperial citizens, walking in having tea with the governor and planting the seeds of heresy in his mind.

I never saw the Alpha Legion's size as a problem when it came to infiltration. There's quite a number of large individuals in the 40k-verse that they could disguise themselves as. Hooded ogryn, large servitors, loyalist astartes. Especially going sans-armor they might even pass for some local brand of steroid-pumping gang member. In fact, all they really need to do is dress up a human cultist as an important looking diplomat and play "mysterious bodyguard".

As to the whole cabal thing, while I understand people's suspicion and belief that the cabal is just trying to wipe out humanity, to me it still seems plausible. Under Lorgar's world view,which he certainly would've pushed if Horus had won, humans and chaos would grow closer and closer together, as he explains in Aurelian. This type of symbiosis is never really seen among the Eldar and is why the fall of the Eldar civilization didn't weaken chaos. I feel Lorgar's symbiosis and "harmony" is very different from just feeding chaos through emotions the way the Eldar did and given time, chaos may have become entirely dependent upon humanity for this connection to the real world. If all of humanity was quickly wiped out by Horus, I don't feel chaos would be able to break its link to humanity to save itself. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

jareddm wrote:
I never saw the Alpha Legion's size as a problem when it came to infiltration. There's quite a number of large individuals in the 40k-verse that they could disguise themselves as. Hooded ogryn, large servitors, loyalist astartes. Especially going sans-armor they might even pass for some local brand of steroid-pumping gang member. In fact, all they really need to do is dress up a human cultist as an important looking diplomat and play "mysterious bodyguard".

They physically modify themselves to take on new aliases, I can see some sort of genetic manipulation that makes them look like a normal human. Similar to that shapeshifting drug Callidus' use.

 Harriticus wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I never saw the Alpha Legion's size as a problem when it came to infiltration. There's quite a number of large individuals in the 40k-verse that they could disguise themselves as. Hooded ogryn, large servitors, loyalist astartes. Especially going sans-armor they might even pass for some local brand of steroid-pumping gang member. In fact, all they really need to do is dress up a human cultist as an important looking diplomat and play "mysterious bodyguard".

They physically modify themselves to take on new aliases, I can see some sort of genetic manipulation that makes them look like a normal human. Similar to that shapeshifting drug Callidus' use.

They are also able to use renegade psykers to cloud the minds of others. Similar to how the Emperor is able to make himself appear to be a giant dude in Golden Armor.

I would also like to point out.

The Alpha legion marines can teleport, not just termies. That is a hughe advantage in being able to deploy infiltrators.

They also use human operatives to achieve their ends.

Which is more likely,
8ft astartes preteding to be a brigadier general of the opposing army.
Or
Scribe A14 slightly doctoring an order to lead a unit out of position into a trap, or a weakness in the defneces to exploit.

Too much emphasis is placed on the AL in their infiltrator role. Whereas the IA had their doctrine as attacking from every direction in every concievable way.

Cultists, Spys Informants, all have their place so that the result is greater than the sum of its parts.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I never saw the Alpha Legion's size as a problem when it came to infiltration. There's quite a number of large individuals in the 40k-verse that they could disguise themselves as. Hooded ogryn, large servitors, loyalist astartes. Especially going sans-armor they might even pass for some local brand of steroid-pumping gang member. In fact, all they really need to do is dress up a human cultist as an important looking diplomat and play "mysterious bodyguard".

They physically modify themselves to take on new aliases, I can see some sort of genetic manipulation that makes them look like a normal human. Similar to that shapeshifting drug Callidus' use.

They are also able to use renegade psykers to cloud the minds of others. Similar to how the Emperor is able to make himself appear to be a giant dude in Golden Armor.

WAAAAAIIIIT,SO Emp wasn't a golden giant dude ???

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I never saw the Alpha Legion's size as a problem when it came to infiltration. There's quite a number of large individuals in the 40k-verse that they could disguise themselves as. Hooded ogryn, large servitors, loyalist astartes. Especially going sans-armor they might even pass for some local brand of steroid-pumping gang member. In fact, all they really need to do is dress up a human cultist as an important looking diplomat and play "mysterious bodyguard".

They physically modify themselves to take on new aliases, I can see some sort of genetic manipulation that makes them look like a normal human. Similar to that shapeshifting drug Callidus' use.

They are also able to use renegade psykers to cloud the minds of others. Similar to how the Emperor is able to make himself appear to be a giant dude in Golden Armor.

WAAAAAIIIIT,SO Emp wasn't a golden giant dude ???

I'm sure there were other examples of it, but the one I remember was in Deliverance Lost. Corax speaks with the Emperor and is able to see through the veil that the Emperor puts up. He's much plainer, not as massive, and wearing all white.

 Captain Roderick wrote:

Interestingly, from the latest Games Day in the UK, the Forgeworld team are really uncertain how to bring the Alpha Legion Primarch(s) to the Heresy tabletop, both in modelling and gaming terms. How do you create rules for a concealed Primarch?

I was actually thinking about this as I can't wait for the rules and I suspect they'll be last.

1.I was thinking that you'd have 2 models for the primarchs with a slightly lesser profile than current primarchs (still mostly 6s maybe WS7 I7) but they'd have a shared number of attacks and wounds.

E.g. The two models can be set up separately but once they've taken a total of ....8-10 wounds between them they both "disappear" (die) and they have maybe 6-8 attacks which they can split between the models each turn.

2. Alternatively I thought maybe they could have less wounds than you'd expect each (4 each?) but for each wound they suffer on a 2+ you can remove another model within a set distance (and possibly switch places with it?) This would represent the secret identity aspect of them

E.g. Alpharius is on 1 wound and takes a plasma to the face. He loses his last wound but you roll a 4 and pick a legion marine 8 inches away to remove as the casualty and move Alpharius to where he was.

3. Another option could be to have Alpharius as a standard primarch with some special rules and Omegon as a bodyguard/commander (albeit a good one) who can only use Primarch-like stats and abilities in the event of Alpharius being killed.



Modelling wise I'd say have 2 models in dynamic poses and ornate armour, smaller than angron but still larger than a normal marine. Use painting to distinguish them (Omegon being in black)



on another note, does anyone know where there are 30k forums for army lists, painting, discussion and such? I've come up with my first 3000pt Death Guard list and I'd like to air it!



I am Omegon

 LoneLictor wrote:
They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

Note that since their actual objective is still unknown, they could have let the Space Wolves through for their own purposes. The Cabal had told Alpharius that the only way to destroy Chaos was for Horus to kill the Emperor, but since the battle had turned into a deadlock on Terra, they could have felt the need to let the SW through to force Horus into fighting the Emperor instead of letting him escape somehow.

Also, since the only source on their primarch being killed was an Inquisitor later accused of being a member of the Alpha Legion himself, it's not entirely a reliable source, especially considering that the legion all claimed to be Alpharius anyway. And of course, since the Alpha Legion play the long game, they're at their most dangerous when they appear defeated. Their obvious battles are likely distractions so that people don't notice when they accomplish their true goals.

Alpharius and Omegon may never have been found by the Emperor. You never know with Alpha Legion. All of their "failures" could be successes.

There is a critical component of Alpha Legion history that everyone is forgetting here:



This has interesting implications for the future. Did Guillman actually kill a fake version of Alpharius? Is Omegon working against his brother? Why did Omegon kick the Cabal out into space? Is Omegon going to double cross his brother and turn against the Emperor? Or are they working for the Emperor in the first place?

There are far too many questions and not enough answers WRT to the Alpha Legion for people to make any solid conclusions. And thats the way it should be...

FOR THE EMPEROR!

Dunno if anyone's interested but I've got the rules for the Primarch from the Tempus Fugitives website when they had the HH thingy going on. Alpharius' 'thing' was that you could hide him anywhere in your army and when the player chose him to appear, he could pick any Marine whatsoever and he would instantly become the Primarch with the juicy stats and rules that came with him. And he also had the same weaponry as the guy he replaced. Pretty nasty..for 450 points he should have been.

Durza wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

Note that since their actual objective is still unknown, they could have let the Space Wolves through for their own purposes. The Cabal had told Alpharius that the only way to destroy Chaos was for Horus to kill the Emperor, but since the battle had turned into a deadlock on Terra, they could have felt the need to let the SW through to force Horus into fighting the Emperor instead of letting him escape somehow.

Also, since the only source on their primarch being killed was an Inquisitor later accused of being a member of the Alpha Legion himself, it's not entirely a reliable source, especially considering that the legion all claimed to be Alpharius anyway. And of course, since the Alpha Legion play the long game, they're at their most dangerous when they appear defeated. Their obvious battles are likely distractions so that people don't notice when they accomplish their true goals.

The Alpha Legion is losing on purpose?

Okay.

Not at all fan-spank.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Durza wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:They failed to keep the Space Wolves from reaching Terra during the Horus Heresy
They got their Primarch killed when they fought the Ultramarines
They were pwned by Shrike and Kor'sarro Khan at Quintus
They were then pwned by Kor'sarro Khan again at Zoran
They got their asses handed to them by the Novamarines at Luxor
They accomplished nothing at Vraks
They also accomplished nothing at Tartarus

Seems to me that the Alpha Legion isn't quite as successful as you'd like to think it is.

Note that since their actual objective is still unknown, they could have let the Space Wolves through for their own purposes. The Cabal had told Alpharius that the only way to destroy Chaos was for Horus to kill the Emperor, but since the battle had turned into a deadlock on Terra, they could have felt the need to let the SW through to force Horus into fighting the Emperor instead of letting him escape somehow.

Also, since the only source on their primarch being killed was an Inquisitor later accused of being a member of the Alpha Legion himself, it's not entirely a reliable source, especially considering that the legion all claimed to be Alpharius anyway. And of course, since the Alpha Legion play the long game, they're at their most dangerous when they appear defeated. Their obvious battles are likely distractions so that people don't notice when they accomplish their true goals.

The Alpha Legion is losing on purpose?

Okay.

Not at all fan-spank.

Are they losing, though? If the way events turn are in their favor and are falling into the machinations they have created, that's not losing.

+1

Eldar lose on purpose all the time. Tzeench same thing. As long as things go "according to plan".

Example, Siege of Vrakks. It was supposed to take 8 years to take the planet. Alpha Legion shows up and suddenly it takes an extra 5 years added to that, millions more men, material and the planet was ravaged by chaos daemons. Sure they lost the planet (it was never theirs in the first place) in the end but the Alpha Legion probably got what they wanted. How many other warzones could have used that material, men, focus in those extra 5 years? What about the souls sacrificed to chaos? Etc.... it essentially cost the Alpha Legion nothing to destroy the entire planet because they used pawns and daemons... I think the Alpha Legion would have looked at Vrakks as a success. Not a resounding one but a sucess nevertheless.

Alpha Legion always, always have another angle, and it's not always obvious.