Effective Mind War?

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**PalmerC**

Hi there

New player here. I looked at old threads but couldnt find something to answer my question in recent threads.

I was listenting to someone on youtube talk about Eldar Mind War and how it can be effective for the slay the warlord victory point. I haven tused mind war yet but when reading the rules it looks like a d6 roll off plus leadership. I am thinking to myself that against some captains or mid level characters this could be a good attack for a farseer but some codex's have leadership 9 and 10 across the board and certainly most warlords will. Is there something about a farseer that gives them some advantage when using mindwar besides their 10 leadership? It looks like the runes only affect psychic tests (not leadership tests as in the mind war role off?)

appreciate your insight

**Jihallah**

because on a decent roll off you can take off 2-3 wounds easy.
because you can pick the model you wish to mind war.

Can you see how these two little things make a big difference?

**PalmerC**

Okay I think I get it. I assumed it worked both ways whoever won dealt the damage. Big assumption. The only risk is to the target so basically against a model with leadership 10 a farseer has a 50/50 chance of wounding roughly.

**jbunny**

Well, you have to pass your LD, They get DTW, then roll off on a D6, and then I believe they get to LoS the wounds. And if that fails they get Inv saves or cover saves.

In the pass, Mind War was best used to remove special weapons from squads. (Meltas, flamers and others)

**WhiteZombie**

It's quite effective at sniping characters when you run Eldrad and an additional Farseer.

You can mind war them three times which will hopefully take a couple of wounds, and makes it easier to kill them when your Avatar or Wraithlord slap them around a little.

**jbunny**

2 times. Mind War is a shooting attack, so Eldrad can only do it once.

**BlueDagger**

Warning, bad advice alert. Mindwar is a terrible terrible tool to take for warlord sniping. JBunny pointed out the vast majority of it.

1) Get within 18" with your caster, outside of a vehicle
2) Pass your Ldr test and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.
3) Hope your opponent fails their Deny the Witch
4) Hope you roll a lot better then they do on their
5) Hope they fail their typically 2+ Look out sir
6) Hope they fail any invul or cover save

Now, the even worse part... most warlords will be Ldr 10 so now you are looking at these odds.

58% chance you lose or tie the D6 roll off
14% you cause 1 wound
11% you cause 2
8% you cause 3
6% you cause 4
3% you cause 5

So 72% of the time you are looking at doing nothing or causing a single wound... while being 18" away and giving up doom/fortune. That's very very bad.

Take a barrage weapon, put a blast on his head and his buddies sharing the love, and you'll get much better results.

**Hanith**

BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase. If you have soulstones or Eldrad you can do any combination of Fortune--Guide--Doom/MindWar/Eldritch Storm.

Here is the Mathhammer for pulling Mind War off on 2 "naked" commanders (aka no upgrades but with enough squad to attempt a "Look out Sir" on each wound inflicted).

Pass Ld test: 33/36 (91%) (running chance: 91%)
Fail "Deny the Wytch": 5/6 (83.3%) (running chance: 75.8%)
Roll higher than opponent by at Least 1: 15/6/6 = 15/36 (41.6%) (running chance: 31.5%)
Fail "Look out Sir": 3/6 (50%) (running chance: 15.8%)
Fail Cover/Invul of 5+ : 4/6 (66%) (running chance: 10.5%)

Chances of rolling against opponent and getting these EXACT results:
5 higher (1/36) = 2.8%
4 higher (2/36) = 5.5%
3 higher (3/36) = 8.3%
2 higher (4/36) = 11.1%
1 higher (5/36) = 13.8%

Your chances of causing a single wound, assuming the average chance of rolling at least 1 higher than your opponent, are 10.5%. Your chances of killing a 3 wound IC are lower. They are around 2.18% without rounding.

This looks very small but the chances of killing a 3 wound IC with a barrage weapon in a single round are much worse.

Assume the barrage weapon is without without LOS, with S = IC's T + 2 and that the IC has 3+ armor/cover (as is typical).

Roll a "Hit": 1/3 (33.3%) (running chance: 33.3%)
Roll a Wound: 5/6 (83.3%) (running chance: 27.7%)
Fail "Look out Sir": 3/6 (50%) (running chance: 13.9%)
Fail Armor/Cover/Invul 3+: 2/6 (33.3%) (running chance: 4.63%)

This makes about a 4.63% chance of causing a single wound on an IC with a single shot. Your chances of killing an IC in a single round with this are .001% (assuming you get only 3 shots as most Barrage weapons rarely shoot more than this).

Final Summary:
Chance of killing with mind War is 2.18%
Chance of killing with 3 shot barrage weapon with S of IC's T + 2 is .001%

This may seem definitive but mind war will only ever hurt a single model but only has to hit once to cause multiple wounds. Those blasts could potentially wipe out the squad and have longer range but require multiple to-hit rolls and don't ignore armor.

EDIT: Math was off a bit

**Rampage**

Hanith wrote:
BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase.

The point still stands, if you decide that you want to use Mind War in the shooting phase you are therefore electing not to use Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of the turn.

**Presto**

Rampage wrote:
Hanith wrote:
BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase.

The point still stands, if you decide that you want to use Mind War in the shooting phase you are therefore electing not to use Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of the turn.

You dont know how farseers/eldrad work do you??

Farseers can cast two spells per turn(you have to take the stones but you ALWAYS take the stones) so you can cast Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of your turn, then during your shooting phase do mind war....Eldrad gets to cast three spells, perhaps you should know something about how Eldar works before you make comments.

**jbunny**

Hanith wrote:
BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase. If you have soulstones or Eldrad you can do any combination of Fortune--Guide--Doom/MindWar/Eldritch Storm.

Here is the Mathhammer for pulling Mind War off on 2 "naked" commanders (aka no upgrades but with enough squad to attempt a "Look out Sir" on each wound inflicted).

Pass Ld test: 33/36 (91%) (running chance: 91%)
Fail "Deny the Wytch": 5/6 (83.3%) (running chance: 75.8%)
Roll higher than opponent by at Least 1: 15/6/6 = 15/36 (41.6%) (running chance: 31.5%)
Fail "Look out Sir": 3/6 (50%) (running chance: 15.8%)
Fail Cover/Invul of 5+ : 4/6 (66%) (running chance: 10.5%)

Chances of rolling against opponent and getting these EXACT results:
5 higher (1/36) = 2.8%
4 higher (2/36) = 5.5%
3 higher (3/36) = 8.3%
2 higher (4/36) = 11.1%
1 higher (5/36) = 13.8%

Your chances of causing a single wound, assuming the average chance of rolling at least 1 higher than your opponent, are 10.5%. Your chances of killing a 3 wound IC are lower. They are around 2.18% without rounding.

This looks very small but the chances of killing a 3 wound IC with a barrage weapon in a single round are much worse.

Assume the barrage weapon is without without LOS, with S = IC's T + 2 and that the IC has 3+ armor/cover (as is typical).

Roll a "Hit": 1/3 (33.3%) (running chance: 33.3%)
Roll a Wound: 5/6 (83.3%) (running chance: 27.7%)
Fail "Look out Sir": 3/6 (50%) (running chance: 13.9%)
Fail Armor/Cover/Invul 3+: 2/6 (33.3%) (running chance: 4.63%)

This makes about a 4.63% chance of causing a single wound on an IC with a single shot. Your chances of killing an IC in a single round with this are .001% (assuming you get only 3 shots as most Barrage weapons rarely shoot more than this).

Final Summary:
Chance of killing with mind War is 2.18%
Chance of killing with 3 shot barrage weapon with S of IC's T + 2 is .001%

This may seem definitive but mind war will only ever hurt a single model but only has to hit once to cause multiple wounds. Those blasts could potentially wipe out the squad and have longer range but require multiple to-hit rolls and don't ignore armor.

EDIT: Math was off a bit

Your assumption is wrong. IC's (which this thread is about) LoS on a 2+, not a 4+. That along changes your numbers from 10% to about 4% which is a 60% decease in effectiveness. Consider a naked Farseer has a 2.8% chance of taking a wound from Perils means you have about a 50% chance of wounding yourself as you do an IC.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Presto wrote:
Rampage wrote:
Hanith wrote:
BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase.

The point still stands, if you decide that you want to use Mind War in the shooting phase you are therefore electing not to use Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of the turn.

You dont know how farseers/eldrad work do you??

Farseers can cast two spells per turn(you have to take the stones but you ALWAYS take the stones) so you can cast Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of your turn, then during your shooting phase do mind war....Eldrad gets to cast three spells, perhaps you should know something about how Eldar works before you make comments.

Yes, but to do Mind War, you cannot Doom and Guide, Guide and Fortune, Fortune and Doom. And one of those combinations is better that a simple 4% chance of doing one wound to an IC. You have a better chance of wounding the IC, by Dooming his unit and Guiding a unit firing at them.

**Iranna**

Mind War, in my opinion, is a waste of 20pts.

This is especially so in 6th edition, where I find Eldar have to rely on Fortune/Guide and Doom more than ever to make up for the outrageous over-pricing.

Simply put, Force Multiplication will always be far more valuable for Eldar than sheer psychic offence,

Iranna.

**Rampage**

Presto wrote:
Rampage wrote:
Hanith wrote:
BlueDagger wrote:
... and give up your chance to use other powers like Fortune, Guide, Doom.

Fortune and Guide are used at the beginning of the turn, not during the shooting phase.

The point still stands, if you decide that you want to use Mind War in the shooting phase you are therefore electing not to use Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of the turn.

You dont know how farseers/eldrad work do you??

Farseers can cast two spells per turn(you have to take the stones but you ALWAYS take the stones) so you can cast Doom/Guide/Fortune at the beginning of your turn, then during your shooting phase do mind war....Eldrad gets to cast three spells, perhaps you should know something about how Eldar works before you make comments.

Ok, let me rephrase that, seeing as you completely misunderstood my previous statement and treated me like an idiot. I know full well how Eldar work.

Let's say that I have Eldrad, not an unreasonable assumption for an Eldar player. As you rightly say, he can use 3 psychic powers per turn. Now, I can either choose to use all 3 of my warp charge points at the beginning of the turn, using Guide/Doom/Fortune. That would mean that I cannot use Mind War in the shooting phase, as I've already cast 3 psychic powers. If I DID want to use Mind War in the shooting phase, I would have to reduce the number of psychic powers that I use at the start of the turn, so I am using 2 psychic powers at the start of the turn, and 1 in the shooting phase. Therefore, I have had to elect to use one less psychic power at the start of the turn, in order to use Mind War, and so am not using another Doom/Guide/Fortune.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Jbunny. Thanks for backing me up.

**BlueDagger**

Holy skewed math batman.

First, Um, we mean you deciding you aren't using 3 doom/fortune/guide, which you should be. Mindwar isn't worth not casting a mix of those 3 powers.

Mindwar never states it can't effect more ten just that model and the power predates LoS! And thus there is nothing stopping him from doing a LoS! Due to the wording. See the topic in YMDC. Toss a 2+ lookout sir and the odds plummet.

Now for the barrage math, gah. Assuming right iff the bat you have No LoS is rather rediculous when you are comparing it to an 18" power that requires LoS. Even at that you can at the least assuming the player is using guide on the barrage weapon. You are also assume A) more targets aren't hit B) it's not a rending large blast C) it's not a D-Cannon with instant death, etc etc.

Saying a blanket statement like:
- mindwar 2.18% death
- all barrage .001 death

Is just asking to get flammed lol.

Edit: haha ninjaed 3 times.. Damn slow typing on phone.

**Jihallah**

jbunny wrote:
Well, you have to pass your LD, They get DTW, then roll off on a D6, and then I believe they get to LoS the wounds. And if that fails they get Inv saves or cover saves.

In the pass, Mind War was best used to remove special weapons from squads. (Meltas, flamers and others)

omfg I forgot about LoS

and that somehow having your foot behind a rock means you get a save from the psyker crushing your brains. A total

moment for 40k I feel

Presto wrote:

You dont know how farseers/eldrad work do you??

You don't know how to read and comprehend do you

Oh wait, 'Merican. Shouldn't be surprised...

**PalmerC**

Thanks for the info everyone. Mind War certainly seems like a bit of a stretch to pull off.

The conversation bring up a couple more thoughts though. One may be obvious. The codex specifically says no armour saves but I noticed some refering to armor saves?

Look our sir and cover saves? I realize this is used in the shooting phase but is it really interpreted as a ballistic attack? I find it perplexing that you could take a look out sir against mind war or that you could get a cover save. Since I am new to the game I do not doubt that is the literal rule if you all say it is but it seems in deperate need of a make over.

**BlueDagger**

The Eldar faq grants the use of cover saves and the wording of look out sireans ot's not block from use wothout FAQ

**Razgriz22**

Why would you ever take mind war when you could psychic shriek? Sure its not a "sniping" ability but as shown above, mind war isnt either.

And why take psychic shriek when that makes you give up fortune/ doom/ guide ?!

Maybe I rely too heavily on fortune (i really do in all honesty). But it is almost needed in some cases to run eldar competitively.

**PalmerC**

Razgriz22 wrote:
Why would you ever take mind war when you could psychic shriek? Sure its not a "sniping" ability but as shown above, mind war isnt either.

And why take psychic shriek when that makes you give up fortune/ doom/ guide ?!

Maybe I rely too heavily on fortune (i really do in all honesty). But it is almost needed in some cases to run eldar competitively.

I havent used MW yet. I have only had two games and took Doom and Fortune both times. Like I mentioned above I was watching a youtube vid of someone talking about mw and how it is better in 6th with kill the WL victory point. Not so sure now lol...

**Razgriz22**

Haha as much as i wish it was what you heard it was.... some solid math has shown otherwise. :-(

**PalmerC**

Razgriz22 wrote:
Haha as much as i wish it was what you heard it was.... some solid math has shown otherwise. :-(

Yes I dont disagree. The context of the argument was with multiple farseers and to take out front line brick minitures that soak up initial fire and another option to slay the warlord. Here's the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42VAFv_WTJo&feature=plcp

**Razgriz22**

I assume he is under the impression that mindwar could not be look-our-sir'd

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have seen many of his videos and havent often seen him not know the rules. So idk.... odd

Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT**************

After going back and reading some rules.... Im starting to lean on the fact that Mind war doesnt allow look out sir. Look out sir is done upon allocating wounds where as Mind war has already allocated its "possible" wounds as you pick a model not a unit. It also reads that the target just loses a wound no armour saves allowed. So there doesnt seem to be any allocation of wounds, just loss of them. Idk. Hopefully someone can clear this up some for me.

**Nologik**

I don't see how it could be look out sird.. actually because you are testing at the models leadership not the lacky that got LOS. If the model automatically took a wound then I would say yes, LOS can be taken, however since you specifically target his leadership, I don't see how LOS can allocate a wound in the same way.
Just my 2 cents

And if you could LOS a wound from Mindwar, you would be killing many more models than just one if LOS worked. So then you would call it Mind war"s" lols.

**AnomanderRake**

I think we're all missing the point of Mind War, really. It's not for killing enemy 3-Wound Independent Characters, it's for defanging enemy squads. Ork Painboyz have Ld 7, pulling them makes the rest of the squad that much more vulnerable to fire. Regular Space Marines toting heavy weapons are Ld 8, Space Marine power-fist armed Sergeants are Ld 9, Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors are all Ld 7 and their officers are Ld 8-9, most Dark Eldar are Ld 8-9 but a Beastmaster's flock consists of Ld 5 units, Carnifexes and Hive Guard are Ld 7...

Mind War does suffer by comparison to Guide and Doom, but it's far from useless. Optimally you'll use it if you're planning on facing down any army built to rely on upgrade weapons/squad leaders or low-Ld 'Nid critters when the fight is likely going to result in close quarters.

**jbunny**

AnomanderRake wrote:
I think we're all missing the point of Mind War, really. It's not for killing enemy 3-Wound Independent Characters, it's for defanging enemy squads. Ork Painboyz have Ld 7, pulling them makes the rest of the squad that much more vulnerable to fire. Regular Space Marines toting heavy weapons are Ld 8, Space Marine power-fist armed Sergeants are Ld 9, Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors are all Ld 7 and their officers are Ld 8-9, most Dark Eldar are Ld 8-9 but a Beastmaster's flock consists of Ld 5 units, Carnifexes and Hive Guard are Ld 7...

Mind War does suffer by comparison to Guide and Doom, but it's far from useless. Optimally you'll use it if you're planning on facing down any army built to rely on upgrade weapons/squad leaders or low-Ld 'Nid critters when the fight is likely going to result in close quarters.

I don't think I ever said Mind war is useless. But against IC's it is. I do agree that against certain units it can be effective. It is great at removing special weapons (Remember the Pain Boy is a Character I believe so LoS applies, and if in a Mob he should be Ld 10) Not great against Squad leaders, but works wonders for basic joes. And it works on low LD MC's as well.

**Hanith**

BlueDagger wrote:
Holy skewed math batman.
Now for the barrage math, gah. Assuming right iff the bat you have No LoS is rather rediculous when you are comparing it to an 18" power that requires LoS. Even at that you can at the least assuming the player is using guide on the barrage weapon. You are also assume A) more targets aren't hit B) it's not a rending large blast C) it's not a D-Cannon with instant death, etc etc.

I've yet to play a game against a player who actually had LofS with a multi-barrage unit that had any sensible range. They always get tucked away behind something preventing LofS so they can't be shot up but can still shoot. As for not applying upgrades like Guide or auto-wound on 2+, this was intentional as this was designed to be math without upgrades. If upgrades were applied, "Embolden" and "Runes of Witnessing" would have also been applied to the Mind War attack. You're statements of

BlueDagger wrote:

. . . A)more targets aren't hit . . .

- all barrage . . .

is inaccurate. If you had read the header to that bit, you would know it was a total of 3 shots, without LOS, at Strength equal to the IC toughness +2, and it does not break armor. In case your drawing question marks right now, this roughly represents a full squad of Shadow Weavers (which are one of the few barrage weapons available to the Eldar) against the terribly common 4 toughness. Your assumption of "all barrage" is without merit.

Lastly,

BlueDagger wrote:

First, Um, we mean you deciding you aren't using 3 doom/fortune/guide, which you should be.

This was nothing more than a comparison of Mind War vs. Barrage Weapons as both are commonly used to "snipe" out characters from squads. If you want to throw together some math which accounts for the possibility of killing 25% of a completely variable squad size and the average chances of it fleeing, killing the squad completely, the opponent killing off the IC instead of the squad, rerolls with barrage weapons which have LofS, rerolls on Ld tests, Runes of Witnessing and rerolls to wound, feel free.

**BlueDagger**

I concide the fact that your math of 3 shadow weavers that are only hitting that one IC, is out of LoS, target isn't doomed, and aren't guided is worse the midwar for sniping. That being said, that us the absolute worst case scenario for Eldar barrage and a terrible example. So at that point you are comparing the best case scenario of mind war vs the worse case scenario of barrage... in which case I'd say skewed math. However the two type of sniping have various factors beyond just hit/wound/save that makes them rather uncomparable.

Take a shadowweaver pack with Eldrad hanging out in cover vs Eldrad, Farseer, and any of your choice. With the way barrage works it won't be uncommon to force 6-7+ look out sirs on an IC turn one.

On mindwar and LoS! the issue is you have to follow the steps of a shooting attack. It's not clear if "the model loses a wound" bypasses the model having a wound pool and the wounds get allocated to him. They both are the same thing and from a fuff standpoint if a tree can block the mind attack I'm sure a dude jumping in the way could... and subsiquently get him dead.