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Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Guess that "Instead of from the firing model" part has you confused. Ever hear of the term "override". You should look it up. Heck I'll do it for you;

Override - to take precedence over; preempt or supersede: to override any other considerations.

So when the shot comes from the center of the marker instead of the firing unit you "override" the distance from the firing unit and use the distance from the center of the blast marker instead.

The barrage rules are quite clear that the centre of the blast is used to determin cover saves and allocation only.
That was the important part missing from your quote earlier.
In this case we're not determining cover saves, but if the unit gains stealth/shrouded. So the distance from the firing unit is used, not the from the blast.

Correct. The blast is considered to originate from the center of the marker. In this instance the physical location of the model that fired it is irrelevant.

Look at it this way then. I have a single Basilisk. It is a unit of one model. It fires and using the rules for Barrage and even your interpretation added in, for resolution of the shot you assume the location of the model was where the center of the blast ended up.

@ Grendel. If that is the case why does the rule for Barrage state you work out cover from the center. The last time I looked at the rules stealth and shrouded are cover saves.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Correct. The blast is considered to originate from the center of the marker. In this instance the physical location of the model that fired it is irrelevant.

Look at it this way then. I have a single Basilisk. It is a unit of one model. It fires and using the rules for Barrage and even your interpretation added in, for resolution of the shot you assume the location of the model was where the center of the blast ended up.

For TWO specific instances only

Two instances that do not intersect with the Night Fighting rules in any way shape or form.

A fact you completely ignore

You are still ignoring unit to unit. Barrage says nothing about the firing unit, only the firing model. If you have a unit of 1 model, you still determine Night Fighting cover based on where the unit is not where the model is assumed to be shooting from.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Correct. The blast is considered to originate from the center of the marker.

For cover saves and wound allocation only.

In this instance the physical location of the model that fired it is irrelevant.

For cover saves and wound allocation only.

Look at it this way then. I have a single Basilisk. It is a unit of one model. It fires and using the rules for Barrage and even your interpretation added in, for resolution of the shot you assume the location of the model was where the center of the blast ended up.

Again your missing the part of the barrage rules that tells you what the centre of the blast is used for. It isn't used for everything, just the points listed.

A barrage weapon is fired from it's owning unit, so in this case a basilisk fires at a piranha that is 25 inches away during night fighting.

Currently, the piranha has disruption pods, this giving it shrouding.

However, it has stealth and another source of shrouding.

Shrouding doesn't stack, so we ignore the second source, since the vehicle will keep shrouding due to the weapon that is being fired at the vehicle is further than 12 inches.

The center of the blast isn't the weapon, the basilisk main gun is the weapon.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
. @ Grendel. If that is the case why does the rule for Barrage state you work out cover from the center. The last time I looked at the rules stealth and shrouded are cover saves.

You're not determining a cover save. You're determining if the unit gains a special rule.
That rule does effect cover saves, and is later used to determine your cover save. Big difference.

Look up the word override if you don't believe the definition.

Since you determine cover saves, which oddly enough the rulebook tells you that stealth and shrouding confer, from the center of the marker (a fact YOU completely ignore) the firing unit can be 3-36 inches away. It doesn't matter.

Ninjad - so you say you get a cover save if the target unit is far enough away for shrouding to work then negate that very same save when you determine the distance from the center of the blast to see if a cover save is warranted. OK and extra step but the same outcome.

We understand the definition just fine, however, when determining if a unit has the Stealth or Shrouded special rule from Night Fighting, you don't use the position of the firing model. The firing model could be right on top of the enemy (literally) but you use the distance from firing unit to target unit.

Additionally, Stealth and Shrouded don't confer a Cover Save, they improve Cover Save, so a model with a cover save of - would have it improved to 6+, 5+ etc.
This is the exactly the same way Markerlights remove cover saves (except in reverse).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
A barrage weapon is fired from it's owning unit, so in this case a basilisk fires at a piranha that is 25 inches away during night fighting.

Currently, the piranha has disruption pods, this giving it shrouding.

However, it has stealth and another source of shrouding.

Shrouding doesn't stack, so we ignore the second source, since the vehicle will keep shrouding due to the weapon that is being fired at the vehicle is further than 12 inches.

The center of the blast isn't the weapon, the basilisk main gun is the weapon.

Units at 24"+ only have Shrouded, not Stealth and Shrouded.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Look up the word override if you don't believe the definition.

Your trying to override the wrong thing.

Since you determine cover saves, which oddly enough the rulebook tells you that stealth and shrouding confer, from the center of the marker (a fact YOU completely ignore) the firing unit can be 3-36 inches away. It doesn't matter.

Stealth. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 1 point better than normal. Note that this means that a model with the Stealth special rule always has a cover save of at least 6+, even if it is in the open.

Shrouded. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule counts its cover saves as being 2 points better than normal. Note that this means a model with the Shrouded special rule always has a cover save of at least 5+, even if it's in the open.

Show me where in those two rules you see any kind of measurement to determine what a unit has?

Night Fighting. While the Night Fighting rules are in effect, the distance to a target unit becomes very important - the darkness makes it very difficult to acquire distant targets. The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between:'24" and 35" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule.

The Distance from the Target unit to the Firing Unit gives the Target unit the special rules.

Ninjad - so you say you get a cover save if the target unit is far enough away for shrouding to work then negate that very same save when you determine the distance from the center of the blast to see if a cover save is warranted. OK and extra step but the same outcome.

Again, once the unit has shrouded, show me in the Shrouded rule where it says to measure distance.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Look up the word override if you don't believe the definition.

Since you determine cover saves, which oddly enough the rulebook tells you that stealth and shrouding confer, from the center of the marker (a fact YOU completely ignore) the firing unit can be 3-36 inches away. It doesn't matter.

Ninjad - so you say you get a cover save if the target unit is far enough away for shrouding to work then negate that very same save when you determine the distance from the center of the blast to see if a cover save is warranted. OK and extra step but the same outcome.

SIgh.

Youre ignoring the rules for night fighting. Try again.

Sigh.....

You are ignoring the rules for barrage templates. Try again.

if the shot is assumed to come from the center of the blast marker you measure distance to the targetted unit from the center of the blast marker. The rules tell you to override distance from the firing unit and replace it with the distance from the center of the marker.

always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.

This can not get any clearer unless English is not your native language. If not I can speak German and Spanish and will translate to one of those languages if needed. You do not consider the firing model when determining distance. The rules clearly tell you to ignore the firing model. If you want to houserule to measure from the firing unit more power to you.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Sigh.....

You are ignoring the rules for barrage templates. Try again.

if the shot is assumed to come from the center of the blast marker you measure distance to the targetted unit from the center of the blast marker. The rules tell you to override distance from the firing unit and replace it with the distance from the center of the marker.

always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.

This can not get any clearer unless English is not your native language. If not I can speak German and Spanish and will translate to one of those languages if needed. You do not consider the firing model when determining distance. The rules clearly tell you to ignore the firing model. If you want to houserule to measure from the firing unit more power to you.

Would you mind quoting the beginning of that rule as well? It's extremely relevant, and you seem to keep leaving it out for some reason. Could you explain why?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Sigh.....

You are ignoring the rules for barrage templates. Try again.

if the shot is assumed to come from the center of the blast marker you measure distance to the targetted unit from the center of the blast marker. The rules tell you to override distance from the firing unit and replace it with the distance from the center of the marker.

always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.

This can not get any clearer unless English is not your native language. If not I can speak German and Spanish and will translate to one of those languages if needed. You do not consider the firing model when determining distance. The rules clearly tell you to ignore the firing model. If you want to houserule to measure from the firing unit more power to you.

Why do you keep ignoring that barrage refers to the firing model, and night fighting refers to the firing unit?

It was in the original quote. But if you can't be bothered to expend the energy to go back one page and find out whether or not if was left out we can play along and put it here for the second time.

To determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.
Hits against vehiclesare always resolved against their side armour.

So here we have a rule for barrage weapons. It tells you how to measure distance from the shot to determine where wounds come from and how to determine whether or not cover saves are applicable. Last time I checked Shrouding gave you a cover save if you are more than 24" from the firer. Since you determine where the shot originated from...ie the firer... using the center of the marker there is a pretty good chance that no one hit will be more than 2 1/2 inches away.

instead of from the firing model.

This part of the rule is extremely relevant, and you seem to keep leaving it out for some reason. Could you explain why?

You keep on ignoring the rules for nightfighting, which talk about the firing UNIT

You understand the difference between unit and model, yes? If not we can try to explain it to you

Sigh...... you ust don't get it. No problem girlie girl. You have your opinion on this one I have the rulebook.

The difference here is I can see where you are coming from when you say unit. However I see the additional verbiage in the Barrage rules to override the part about Shrouding.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Last time I checked Shrouding gave you a cover save if you are more than 24" from the firer.

Absolutely wrong. Good day.

The book would disagree. But lets not allow the rules to get in the way of discussing rules. Play on words all you want.


Units between 24" and 36"
inches awayare treated as having the Shrouded special
rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead
treated as having the Stealth special rule.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:The book would disagree. But lets not allow the rules to get in the way of discussing rules. Play on words all you want.


Units between 24" and 36"
inches awayare treated as having the Shrouded special
rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead
treated as having the Stealth special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Last time I checked Shrouding gave you a cover save if you are more than 24" from the firer.

Absolutely wrong. Good day.

I'll leave those there. You didn't say what you think you said.
You said Shrouded gives a cover save when you're 24" away. It doesn't. The Night fight rules give Shrouded when you're 24" away. See the difference?

edit: Nothing in the Barrage rules say to measure from the hole for the purposes of determining if Shrouded or Stealth should be awarded during Night Fight - there's only 2 times you're given permission to measure from the center hole.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Sigh...... you ust don't get it. No problem girlie girl. You have your opinion on this one I have the rulebook.

The difference here is I can see where you are coming from when you say unit. However I see the additional verbiage in the Barrage rules to override the part about Shrouding.

Odd, because youre actually ignoring the rulebook, making your statement entirely worthless in a rules argument.

Back to your insuylts as well, bravo on the fantastic debating technique.

edited by Reds8n

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
The book would disagree. But lets not allow the rules to get in the way of discussing rules. Play on words all you want.


Units between 24" and 36"
inches awayare treated as having the Shrouded special
rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead
treated as having the Stealth special rule.

Its interesting that you quote part of the rule that proves you wrong as you ignored my last post.

You declare a target 25" away. That target gains shrouded.
Nothing from that point removes that Shrouded rule.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
.

Sure thing NOS. I'm insulting by refering your sex as you are yet you are never condescending. Good one.

Could you rephrase that? It doesnt parse as a valid sentence in English.

"girlie girl" has no place in a debate, and amusing that you didnt get my gender correct.

Could you maybe reread the night fighting rules, note the reference to "UNIT", and get back to how that interacts with the Barrage rule, at all? You have so far conclusively proven the exact opposite with all your ramblings.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
.

Sure thing NOS. I'm insulting by refering your sex as you are yet you are never condescending. Good one.

Could you rephrase that? It doesnt parse as a valid sentence in English.

"girlie girl" has no place in a debate, and amusing that you didnt get my gender correct.

Could you maybe reread the night fighting rules, note the reference to "UNIT", and get back to how that interacts with the Barrage rule, at all? You have so far conclusively proven the exact opposite with all your ramblings.

I speak fluent mumble.

Boss GreenNutz seems to feel his reference to nosferatu1001's gender is justified due to some previous reference by nosferatu1001 to Boss GreenNutz's gender. Thus Boss GreenNutz feels that nosferatu1001's rebuke about the appropriateness of GreenNutz's comments was condescending. Hypocritical probably would have been a better word choice, but oh well....

For the record, I have no knowledge of this alleged prior affront by nosferatu1001 upon Boss GreenNutz, but I also did not bother to look

Regardless of the personal remarks, nothing I see in the Barrage rules would remove the trait Stealth or Shrouded granted by the Night Fighting rules from the target unit.

After reading through the relevant rules, I do have a related question.
If the Barrage Blast scatters and causes wounds in a unit other than the target chosen, does the secondary unit benefit from the Night Fighting rules? The last sentence of the NightFighting rules (and Common sense, for what it's worth) suggests that the secondary unit does benefit from Night Fighting, but I would be interested in other opinions.

I reckon things are getting a bit too heated now, so I'm going to take an action to submit a FAQ to GW and see if they can put me out of my misery. Thanks to everyone for the contributions.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
Seems page 36 answers this quite clearly. If the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, as was stated earlier, you are only 2 1/2 inches away using the large marker.

To determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.
Hits against vehiclesare always resolved against their side armour.

As stated it has no bearing on the rules for night fighting. Additionally the first part of your rule quote clearly states for the purposes of wound allocation, not armour penetration. Its no said to be the same thing always, but is listed as being treated the same in particular situations that specifically state it. This is not one of those situations. The rules may not make sense sometimes but that doesn't matter, they are mechanics for applying an in game effect even if the method seems like it does the inverse.

foolishmortal wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Boss GreenNutz wrote:
.

Sure thing NOS. I'm insulting by refering your sex as you are yet you are never condescending. Good one.

Could you rephrase that? It doesnt parse as a valid sentence in English.

"girlie girl" has no place in a debate, and amusing that you didnt get my gender correct.

Could you maybe reread the night fighting rules, note the reference to "UNIT", and get back to how that interacts with the Barrage rule, at all? You have so far conclusively proven the exact opposite with all your ramblings.

I speak fluent mumble.

Boss GreenNutz seems to feel his reference to nosferatu1001's gender is justified due to some previous reference by nosferatu1001 to Boss GreenNutz's gender. Thus Boss GreenNutz feels that nosferatu1001's rebuke about the appropriateness of GreenNutz's comments was condescending. Hypocritical probably would have been a better word choice, but oh well....

For the record, I have no knowledge of this alleged prior affront by nosferatu1001 upon Boss GreenNutz, but I also did not bother to look

Regardless of the personal remarks, nothing I see in the Barrage rules would remove the trait Stealth or Shrouded granted by the Night Fighting rules from the target unit.

After reading through the relevant rules, I do have a related question.
If the Barrage Blast scatters and causes wounds in a unit other than the target chosen, does the secondary unit benefit from the Night Fighting rules? The last sentence of the NightFighting rules (and Common sense, for what it's worth) suggests that the secondary unit does benefit from Night Fighting, but I would be interested in other opinions.

You check range to the initial target to determine the night fight bonus if a blast scatters, so if you target a unit that is 25" away, and the blast scatters into a unit 17" away, that unit gets shrouded instead of stealth. Same if it were to scatter further away.

Tbh however, this is something I screwed up in my last game. I thought that units did not get the stealth/shroud from night fighting with barrage. Didn't matter, still got annihilated.

To determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model.
Hits against vehiclesare always resolved against their side armour.

I've underlined the bit GreenNutz is missing.
The centre of the blast is used for these two cases only. Cover saves and wound allocation.
Determining Stealth/Shrouded through night fighting is not determining cover saves (those rules may effect cover, but you're determining a rule not a save). It's definitely not wound allocation.
There's no reason to use the centre of the blast for determining night fighting benefits.

Happyjew wrote:
You check range to the initial target to determine the night fight bonus if a blast scatters, so if you target a unit that is 25" away, and the blast scatters into a unit 17" away, that unit gets shrouded instead of stealth. Same if it were to scatter further away.

If I'm reading the Blast, Barrage and Night Fighting rules correctly (big if ) then in your example, the secondary unit would get Shrouded and Stealth, and the 25" is measured not to the Unit, but to the center hole of the initial placement of the blast marker.

There is some fuzziness in my mind when talking about the "target" of a blast attack. I may need to look a third time to clear it up. Keeping a brain clear of cognitive dissidence is a never ending process, almost surely hopeless, and definitely thankless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, I missed the line on p33 about a target model. Given that Units are composed of Models, I see no conflict with the Night Fighting procedure. Target Unit works fine