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foolishmortal wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
You check range to the initial target to determine the night fight bonus if a blast scatters, so if you target a unit that is 25" away, and the blast scatters into a unit 17" away, that unit gets shrouded instead of stealth. Same if it were to scatter further away.

If I'm reading the Blast, Barrage and Night Fighting rules correctly (big if ) then in your example, the secondary unit would get Shrouded and Stealth, and the 25" is measured not to the Unit, but to the center hole of the initial placement of the blast marker.

There is some fuzziness in my mind when talking about the "target" of a blast attack. I may need to look a third time to clear it up. Keeping a brain clear of cognitive dissidence is a never ending process, almost surely hopeless, and definitely thankless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, I missed the line on p33 about a target model. Given that Units are composed of Models, I see no conflict with the Night Fighting procedure. Target Unit works fine

Night Fighting rules specifically state that if the attack scatters, you use the original unit that was targeted to determine Night Fight benefits.

Happyjew wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
You check range to the initial target to determine the night fight bonus if a blast scatters, so if you target a unit that is 25" away, and the blast scatters into a unit 17" away, that unit gets shrouded instead of stealth. Same if it were to scatter further away.

If I'm reading the Blast, Barrage and Night Fighting rules correctly (big if ) then in your example, the secondary unit would get Shrouded and Stealth, and the 25" is measured not to the Unit, but to the center hole of the initial placement of the blast marker.

There is some fuzziness in my mind when talking about the "target" of a blast attack. I may need to look a third time to clear it up. Keeping a brain clear of cognitive dissidence is a never ending process, almost surely hopeless, and definitely thankless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yep, I missed the line on p33 about a target model. Given that Units are composed of Models, I see no conflict with the Night Fighting procedure. Target Unit works fine

Night Fighting rules specifically state that if the attack scatters, you use the original unit that was targeted to determine Night Fight benefits.

Night fighting is unit to unit distance, it has no bearing on barrage weapons what so ever. Its a sight distance mechanic that grants USRs based on how far your unit is from your target unit (IE How far they can see into the darkness and if they can spot the enemy unit). It really can not be explained any simpler than that without sounding condescending.

As Happy said here, only the initial range of sight between the units before scatter is used, no exceptions. You could however argue that the other unit that it scatters onto gets stealth rather than shrouded as its a target unit in a different range bracket but its quicker and easier sticking to just the one application for all regardless of scatter.

Pg 124. If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has..

If the shooting attack scattered from 25" to 17" then the target would have Shrouded.

There is only one *target* unit, so no you could not do that - you also measure closest to closest, not to where you place the blast marker as that is not how you measure between units

Again, as this is a UNIT measurement, not a model measurement, the rules for Barrage have nothing to do with it. BG keeps ignoring 2 vital rules while claiming to follow the rules.

LoL I agree, I just said you could argue it not not be right.

An interesting observation: the unit never receives the Stealth or Shrouded rule permanently from Nightfighting; it is only "treated" as having that rule for resolving that specific unit firing at it's target unit. And Barrage, as we all know, says to assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, for the purposes of determining if a unit receives a cover save, and for wound allocation.

The grey area clearly falls into the vague "to determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save," line. To some (including me, as I first interpreted it, during a game), determining if a unit has Shroud or Stealth from the Nightfighting rule seems to fall into "determining if a unit would be allowed a cover save." Strictly speaking, determining a cover save considers the direction of the firer, intervening LOS and if they occupy area terrain. Stealth and Shroud are Special Rules that apply to a unit and are not considered in the rules under "Determining Cover Saves" on page 18. Distance is not an issue, only line of sight, so it's hard to interpret, as a RAI issue, if they intended for barrage to avoid nightfighting.

To me, the "to determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save," line from Barrage is the clencher here. As a unit never gains Stealth or Shroud during the shooting phase, but is merely "treated" as having the rule, this makes me think when determining if the units would receive a cover save from a Barrage weapon, they would consider the range from the center of the barrage template for purposes of whether or not they are "treated" as having Stealth or Shroud. This still swings me in the direction of Barrage overriding Nightfighting. Note that this is very different from barrage targeting units that inherently have Stealth or Shroud; clearly, that weapon would need the "ignores cover" special rule to avoid the cover saves in this case, otherwise the bonus to cover is always given.

The rules are unclearly written. If Nightfighting read that units gained Stealth or Shroud, I think his would be much clearer in order of operations, but determining the range to the firing unit, there is only one distance. When that distance is determined, be it during target selection, or after the shot is fired, seems irrelevant - if the distance is determined to be closer because the shot is considered to come from the center of the template from a barrage weapon, than the distance to the target unit.

....

And, because I must address the "unit" issue, as if I don't I will be called out for ignoring it, in reading the nightfighting rules it does state that "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away." However, in the following sentences, it does not reference the "shooting unit", only the distance drawn to the "target unit," i.e. "Units between 24" and 36" away are treated as having the shrouded special rule." In these sentences "units" does not reference the target unit and the firing unit, but instead all the potential target units, and their distance from the firer. It seems to me Barrage still breaks this method of determining if a unit is "treated" as having Stealth or Shroud, as you determine the shot comes from the center of the template, per Barrage rules, for when you "determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a cover save." I don't see how the previous sentence, which references the firing unit having a restriction on selecting targets more than 36" away, has any effect on the following sentences that determine if the target unit is "treated" as having Stealth or Shroud.

The last lines of the paragraph, which states "If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has. This means that a unit that is over 36" away can still potentially be hit." To me, the last sentence seems to clarify the previous sentence as addressing the previously laid restriction to valid units to be targeted by weaponry being within 36" of the target, not claiming that you only determine the stealth/shroud distinction of Nightfighting on a unit by unit basis.

And besides, what difference would it make as units vs models, as Barrage still considers the shot as originating from the center of the blast marker for determining if a model would receive a cover save, which as detailed earlier in my post, should count for when you determine if a unit would be treated as having Stealth or Shroud per the Nightfighting rules. Since the shot is assumed to have come from the center of the blast marker instead of the firing model, it would be as though the unit was at the center of that blast marker, instead of where the unit actually is, for the purposes of resolving the determination of cover saves.

There are good arguments in both directions. [rant] I know pure fluff has no bearing on actual rulings, but the fact a shot is randomly fired, and the benefits conferred from nightfighting are based purely on line of sight and intervening darkness, a concept that indirect fire skirts around as it is indirectly fired, it makes little sense to gain a benefit from LOS intervention when the negative effects of LOS intervention are explicitly avoided. Ballistic Skill and LOS have no bearing on indirect fire; were it not for the specific ruling stating you cannot select a target more than 36" away, I would argue as well that Barrage can allow indirectly fired weapons to target models beyond 36" as it is a LOS restriction, but wording is wording. [/rant]

Nightfighting =/= cover save.

Barrage uses the position of the blast when determining cover saves. As Nightfighting has nothing to do with cover saves at all, the barrage rules never come into effect at this point. For the sake of argument, treat it as a normal shot. A unit "gains" Stealth or Shrouding based on its distance to the firing unit. A barrage (usually) can't fire itself. So the firing unit is the unit, model or whatever, that shoots it. This solely determines the Shrouding or Stealth USR the targeted unit receives.

After all this is determined, you fire your barrage shot. Now you determine cover. The cover save depends on the positioning of the center of the blast. Suppose you hit right on target and the targeted unit has no cover save because of the shot's position. Apply the Stealth or Shrouded bonus. Determine the final cover save. Done.

Edit:
In regards to firing blasts further than 36" during Night Fight.

At day:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters from here. Aim for that ruin!"
"Yes sir! Firing!"

At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding somewhere out there in the night. Shoot it!"
"But sir, what should we aim for?"
"No clue private, I can't see them."

 Mandor wrote:
Nightfighting =/= cover save.

In regards to firing blasts further than 36" during Night Fight.

At day:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters from here. Aim for that ruin!"
"Yes sir! Firing!"

At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding somewhere out there in the night. Shoot it!"
"But sir, what should we aim for?"
"No clue private, I can't see them."

At day:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!"

At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!!"

Snapshot wrote:

 Mandor wrote:
Nightfighting =/= cover save.

In regards to firing blasts further than 36" during Night Fight.

At day:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters from here. Aim for that ruin!"
"Yes sir! Firing!"

At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding somewhere out there in the night. Shoot it!"
"But sir, what should we aim for?"
"No clue private, I can't see them."

At day:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!"

At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!!"

One of these is based on real life. One is based on RAW. Can you guess which is which?

Yeah, one of my gaming group who used to serve in Ordnance can tell us which...

Snapshot wrote:
At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!!"

Agreed. But how would the sergeant know the enemy unit is hiding there? It's night, everyone is blind! Dumdumdum!
(I know it's a silly argument, but it is as it is).

I think its amusing that its still being opposed.

The first point, that most people brush over with assumption, is barrage weapons center hole is only considered for models that can be wounded. For anything that does not have a toughness characteristic then you simply use the vehicles side armour and determine cover from the direction of the firer.

Second point. Night fighting rules are not determined by cover nor is it the other way around. For any unit that is the target of another unit, if they are X amount of inches away then they are treated as (1) No change 0-12" (2) Have the stealth USR 13-24" (3) Have the shrouded USR 25-36" (4) Cannot be seen/targeted 37" or more. These are set range brackets that grant particular rules to simulate darkness. They are determined before any shot is fired as its not determining the range of the weapon or the direction its fired from.

Once the shot lands, if they have a toughness characteristic, then sure the shot comes from the center hole, the target unit is still treated as having nothing, stealth or shrouded at this point. If they dont get cover then they get nothing, a 6+ or nothing (odd, i know but hey). If they get a cover save then they get the cover save, +1 to it or +2 to it. Nothing prevents the targeted unit from going to ground and getting a cover save to improve (well except if they are fearless but, duh).

If the unit does not have a toughness value, in other words a vehicle, then resolve the shot against the side armour and grant a cover save if the vehicle is 25% obscured fromt eh real direction of the firer (not the center hole, as explained above). and so on and so forth.

Can we put this to bed now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mandor wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
At night:
"Private, an enemy unit is hiding in the ruins about 800 meters over the other side of that hill in front of us. Fire away ol' bean!"
"Yes sir! Firing indirect 'cause we can't see 'em sir!!"

Agreed. But how would the sergeant know the enemy unit is hiding there? It's night, everyone is blind! Dumdumdum!
(I know it's a silly argument, but it is as it is).

Hes obviously psychic, duh. Well no, nothing prevents artillery from shelling an area previously known to be occupied by the enemy, even at night. And if there is a spotter that can see the target then they can direct fire. They of course don't have god like knowledge that the enemy IS there but there's several reasons for artillery shelling 'blind' (most of the time the people operating the weapon can't see the target in the best conditions, kinda the point of artillery).

Yeah, I know it is silly. I sent a rules enquiry to GW today in the hope they might address a bunch of questions we've been thrashing around with re: Barrage weapons over the last few days. I just thought that the one guaranteed way not to have a question answered is not to ask it.

I think the key thing that might not be getting enough air-time is that shrouding and stealth modify cover saves, they don't grant an absolute save. Its been mentioned a couple of times but the implications are important, I feel.

You determine the cover save to the targetted unit based on the location of the blast marker, but then you check the distance between units as specified in the Nightfighting rules and see if the cover save is modified.

An example is a unit behind a wall. If the centre of the template is on the other side of the wall, the target unit gets the wall save, which is then modified by the Nightfighting rules. Otherwise they get no cover save, which is then modified by the Nightfighting rules. The practical upshot of which is that you end up with a cover save, even against barrage weapons.

An important thing to note, is that the Night Fighting rules generate the USRs during Step 2 of the shooting sequence. The check for cover / roll save is Step 5 of the shooting sequence.