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Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 SilverMK2 wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
interesting how people are going off defending this. Its not a political issue, its a bad policy one (and one for a bad novel).


The wholesale scapegoatism of everyone involved that you seem to have suggested is required in your second post is more of a political response than one based on investigating who actually is at fault, as well as the policies, regulations and procedures which failed when planning, running and monitoring this operation, and correcting them... which is what should actually be happening to ensure that this kind of thing is less likely to happen in the future.

Regardless as to how good an idea of sending some (small number more) guns into Mexico and South America in general in the first place.

Well, let's bear in mind that citizens were forced to break the law in order to...break more laws...in an effort to...find lawbreakers.

Sounds to me like the people responsible might have, you know, broken the law?

   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Frazzled wrote:
You are blaming the US for the creation of Cartels? Well that is a new one. I guess we are job creators.
-I said the argument can be made. That argument is that the illegal drug trade created the cartels. Its not a new one. Most people for legalizing drugs cite that as a reason.


If we change it from 'the US created the cartels' to 'US policy on drugs played a role in the formation of cartels' I would concede the point. We can take some of the blame, but we can't take all the credit.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Ahtman wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You are blaming the US for the creation of Cartels? Well that is a new one. I guess we are job creators.
-I said the argument can be made. That argument is that the illegal drug trade created the cartels. Its not a new one. Most people for legalizing drugs cite that as a reason.


If we change it from 'the US created the cartels' to 'US policy on drugs played a role in the formation of cartels' I would concede the point. We can take some of the blame, but we can't take all the credit.


Agreed.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 Seaward wrote:
Well, let's bear in mind that citizens were forced to break the law in order to...break more laws...in an effort to...find lawbreakers.

Sounds to me like the people responsible might have, you know, broken the law?


And I'm sure that an investigation into what happened and why, and indeed how it happened, will be more helpful in identifying people who broke the law and can therefore be tried (assuming that there were people who broke the law) than the inane "suggestions" spouted by Frazzled

so... I'm not entirely sure what your point was...

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 SilverMK2 wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
Well, let's bear in mind that citizens were forced to break the law in order to...break more laws...in an effort to...find lawbreakers.

Sounds to me like the people responsible might have, you know, broken the law?


And I'm sure that an investigation into what happened and why, and indeed how it happened, will be more helpful in identifying people who broke the law and can therefore be tried (assuming that there were people who broke the law) than the inane "suggestions" spouted by Frazzled

so... I'm not entirely sure what your point was...


There is an investigation ongoing. There have been internal investigations. How hard is it to find out how managed the program and who signed off on it? Look at the signatures and fire them. Should take about 30 minutes. We know who the directors were and the local AG was. The directors were transferred but nothing else. FIre them. Fire the AG and anyone else who authorized it.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Maybe we should just hit the cartels with shock and awe while annexing Mexico. Put our drones to good use.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

Except it's not the program itself that had issues.

There have been several reports from the ATF officers who were involved who stated that they were basically forced by the oversight committees to cooperate with local law enforcement--despite the ATF officers making it abundantly clear that the local law enforcement in these instances had individuals who would tip off the cartels.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except it's not the program itself that had issues.

There have been several reports from the ATF officers who were involved who stated that they were basically forced by the oversight committees to cooperate with local law enforcement--despite the ATF officers making it abundantly clear that the local law enforcement in these instances had individuals who would tip off the cartels.


Fire the oversight committee. Fire everyone involved. The plan was idiocy on its face.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Grey Templar wrote:Maybe we should just hit the cartels with shock and awe while annexing Mexico. Put our drones to good use.

Sooner or later we will annex Mexico, it's really in the best interest of thier citizens and t's not like it would change the demographic anymore than time will do anyways. We could use another 31 states and they could use a real government. It has to happen in an economic boom though.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Dang... this issue won't die There's also another operation doing similar things in Texas and Florida:

Operation Castaway, run with the same bloody-minded approach as Operation Fast and Furious, provided more than 1,000 guns to cartels via the Tampa ATF. Those guns leaked out across Honduras, Colombia, and Venezuela, according to the U.S. veteran who smuggled some of the weapons, Hugh Crumpler:

“When the ATF stopped me, they told me the guns were going to cartels,” Hugh Crumpler, a Vietnam veteran turned arms trafficker, told Univision News. “The ATF knew before I knew and had been following me for a considerable length of time. They could not have followed me for two months like they said they did, and not know the guns were going somewhere, and not want for that to be happening.”

Univision also uncovered evidence of weapons being smuggled from Texas: two gun-smuggling programs similar to Fast and Furious are rumored to have put thousands of additional weapons in the cartels’ hands in operations larger than Fast and Furious. U.S. Senator John Cornyn has repeatedly pressed the Obama administration for information about the documented trail of weapons coming from two Texas ATF areas of operations. The Department of Justice has denied the existence of such programs, despite the physical evidence of guns recovered suggesting otherwise. While the Univision report focused on guns the DOJ ran to Mexican cartels, there is enough evidence to suggest other Obama administration-sanctioned gun-walking plots arming domestic criminal gangs, such as the so-called Gangwalker plot in Indiana, which supplied Chicago street gangs, and similar rumored operations in California, North Carolina, northern Florida, and elsewhere, which provided weapons to gangs in U.S. cities. Nor has the Univision report focused on weapons that have found their way to cartels via the State Department or the Department of Defense.

Full article:
Spoiler:
On Sunday night, Spanish-language station Univision— one of the only networks to provide critical coverage of President Obama’s failures in office instead of cream-puff interviews — broke open the Fast and Furious investigation, revealing new evidence of weapons smuggling and displaying shocking new images of the bloody aftermath of the government-supported gun-smuggling program.

The Univision report undermines the integrity of the recently released DOJ inspector general report on Operation Fast and Furious, already heavily criticized as an attempt to whitewash criminal activity within the Obama administration.

The hour-long Univision report revealed the existence of another 57 guns recovered by Mexican authorities, including some of those used in the mass-murder at a party just one year after Obama’s inauguration:


On January 30, 2010, a commando of at least 20 hit men parked themselves outside a birthday party of high school and college students in Villas de Salvarcar, Ciudad Juarez. Near midnight, the assassins, later identified as hired guns for the Mexican cartel La Linea, broke into a one-story house and opened fire on a gathering of nearly 60 teenagers. Outside, lookouts gunned down a screaming neighbor and several students who had managed to escape. Fourteen young men and women were killed, and 12 more were wounded before the hit men finally fled.

Indirectly, the United States government played a role in the massacre by supplying some of the firearms used by the cartel murderers. Three of the high caliber weapons fired that night in Villas de Salvarcar were linked to a gun tracing operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), according to a Mexican army document obtained exclusively by Univision News.

These 57 recovered weapons discovered are in addition to the 122 weapons referenced in a congressional report. It is chilling to learn that each weapon recovered was dumped at the scene of a crime by cartel members who had attempted, and in most cases completed, the crime of first-degree murder. It is even more disturbing to know that American Department of Justice officials knew that most of the weapons walked over the border would only be discarded by the police and recovered by Mexican authorities after they were used in a crime, and that they were indifferent to the body count being racked up, callously noting that to make an omelet, eggs had to be broken.

Univision pulled no punches in describing the horrors of the Villas de Salvarcar massacre, even showing a graphic pool of blood reminiscent of the iconic Normandy D-Day invasion scene in the classic World War II film The Big Red One.

The report also shed more light on a fact that many in the media have attempted to ignore — namely, that Operation Fast and Furious was not the only federal gun-walking operation providing weapons to criminals at this time.

Operation Castaway, run with the same bloody-minded approach as Operation Fast and Furious, provided more than 1,000 guns to cartels via the Tampa ATF. Those guns leaked out across Honduras, Colombia, and Venezuela, according to the U.S. veteran who smuggled some of the weapons, Hugh Crumpler:

“When the ATF stopped me, they told me the guns were going to cartels,” Hugh Crumpler, a Vietnam veteran turned arms trafficker, told Univision News. “The ATF knew before I knew and had been following me for a considerable length of time. They could not have followed me for two months like they said they did, and not know the guns were going somewhere, and not want for that to be happening.”

Univision also uncovered evidence of weapons being smuggled from Texas: two gun-smuggling programs similar to Fast and Furious are rumored to have put thousands of additional weapons in the cartels’ hands in operations larger than Fast and Furious. U.S. Senator John Cornyn has repeatedly pressed the Obama administration for information about the documented trail of weapons coming from two Texas ATF areas of operations. The Department of Justice has denied the existence of such programs, despite the physical evidence of guns recovered suggesting otherwise. While the Univision report focused on guns the DOJ ran to Mexican cartels, there is enough evidence to suggest other Obama administration-sanctioned gun-walking plots arming domestic criminal gangs, such as the so-called Gangwalker plot in Indiana, which supplied Chicago street gangs, and similar rumored operations in California, North Carolina, northern Florida, and elsewhere, which provided weapons to gangs in U.S. cities. Nor has the Univision report focused on weapons that have found their way to cartels via the State Department or the Department of Defense.

Ever since Mike Vanderboegh and David Codrea broke the story of Obama administration gun-walking, critics have been noting that this is the biggest, bloodiest scandal in U.S. presidential history.

Despite a concerted effort by the mainstream media to ignore the story and the Obama administration’s attempt to stonewall investigators, this story seems to be catching fire.

The first presidential debate between embattled President Barack Obama and Republican challenger Mitt Romney will occur Wednesday. You can rest assured the moderator Jim Lehrer will not ask questions about the bloody gun-smuggling plot. It will be interesting to see, however, if Romney himself is willing to bring the scandal out onto a stage so public that even the media can’t ignore it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AustonT wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe we should just hit the cartels with shock and awe while annexing Mexico. Put our drones to good use.

Sooner or later we will annex Mexico, it's really in the best interest of thier citizens and t's not like it would change the demographic anymore than time will do anyways. We could use another 31 states and they could use a real government. It has to happen in an economic boom though.

Heh...it'll be easier to secure Mexico's southern border too... .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/01 18:10:36


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 AustonT wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Maybe we should just hit the cartels with shock and awe while annexing Mexico. Put our drones to good use.

Sooner or later we will annex Mexico, it's really in the best interest of thier citizens and t's not like it would change the demographic anymore than time will do anyways. We could use another 31 states and they could use a real government. It has to happen in an economic boom though.


I agree, although it would be a long and painful process. The Cartels would probably have a last stand that would amount to outright war. Epic for sure.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 Grey Templar wrote:
I agree, although it would be a long and painful process. The Cartels would probably have a last stand that would amount to outright war. Epic for sure.


Or flood the American drug market with drugs tainted with slow acting poisons then wait a couple of months and watch pretty much the entire illegal drug market collapse. Much cheaper and no need to invade and occupy another country. Probably kill less people too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/01 18:16:38


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






What do you think the pretense has to be? It won't end as a war on the cartels; that's the best way to start it. The global community would eat it up, then there's a spontaneous referendum to join the estadoa unidos wedomos. Then all that's left is Canada...

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in ca
Zealous Sin-Eater




Montreal

 AustonT wrote:
What do you think the pretense has to be? It won't end as a war on the cartels; that's the best way to start it. The global community would eat it up, then there's a spontaneous referendum to join the estadoa unidos wedomos. Then all that's left is Canada...


Hands off, Stater! We don't want our superior society ruined by your stupid 2-party system and your distinct lack of universal healthcare.

And you'd piss off the cyborg mooses. THEN there's no telling what can happen.

[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
What do you think the pretense has to be? It won't end as a war on the cartels; that's the best way to start it. The global community would eat it up, then there's a spontaneous referendum to join the estadoa unidos wedomos. Then all that's left is Canada...


Hands off, Stater! We don't want our superior society ruined by your stupid 2-party system and your distinct lack of universal healthcare.

And you'd piss off the cyborg mooses. THEN there's no telling what can happen.


Cyborg mooses (meese?) are nothing to sneeze at.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The excuse is already there. The Drug Cartels pose a threat to the security of the United States and Mexico. A threat that Mexico clearly cannot deal with, and the current government of Mexico clearly is incapable of protecting its own people.

Plenty of reason to invade, stamp out the Cartels, and Annex the country.

We should have annexed the country then(although we probably couldn't have held it at the time)

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ca
Zealous Sin-Eater




Montreal

 Frazzled wrote:
Cyborg mooses (meese?) are nothing to sneeze at.


That's EXACTLY what they want you to think, all comfy in their bogs and marshes.

On the American continents, moose injure more people than any other wild mammal and, worldwide, only hippopotamuses injure more


-Wiki

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/01 18:40:47


[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Kovnik Obama wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
What do you think the pretense has to be? It won't end as a war on the cartels; that's the best way to start it. The global community would eat it up, then there's a spontaneous referendum to join the estadoa unidos wedomos. Then all that's left is Canada...


Hands off, Stater! We don't want our superior society ruined by your stupid 2-party system and your distinct lack of universal healthcare.

And you'd piss off the cyborg mooses. THEN there's no telling what can happen.

The Canadian people after decades of socialist oppression and ration healthcare have held a referendum to join the United States of America.
Geese would have been more of a threat, mean little bastards. Moose are all just big dumb animals, little better than aquatic bovines. Plus we are training an army to fight your cyborg beasts.
Spoiler:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

The thing that seems to be under reported is that there were other "gun walking" operations going on...

Does anyone know if there's an english transcript of that Univision episode?

Here's a nice summary:
Spoiler:
1. 57 Previously Unreported Guns From Fast and Furious Discovered

One of the most explosive revelations made in the Univision News special involves 57 previously unreported firearms from Fast and Furious that were reportedly used in a number of murders and kidnappings.

After cross-referencing the serial numbers of guns used in Fast and Furious against guns confiscated in Mexico, Univision found that about 100 guns were used in crimes and 57 of the guns were not included in an official congressional investigation.

2. Fast and Furious Guns Used in Two Grisly Massacres

ABC News reports, citing Mexican Army documents obtained exclusively by Univision News:

On January 30, 2010, a commando of at least 20 hit men parked themselves outside a birthday party of high school and college students in Villas de Salvarcar, Ciudad Juarez. Near midnight, the assassins, later identified as hired guns for the Mexican cartel La Linea, broke into a one-story house and opened fire on a gathering of nearly 60 teenagers. Outside, lookouts gunned down a screaming neighbor and several students who had managed to escape. Fourteen young men and women were killed, and 12 more were wounded before the hit men finally fled.

Indirectly, the United States government played a role in the massacre by supplying some of the firearms used by the cartel murderers. Three of the high caliber weapons fired that night in Villas de Salvarcar were linked to a gun tracing operation run by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), according to a Mexican army document obtained exclusively by Univision News.

The other bloody attack linked to Fast and Furious guns occurred in September 2009 when members of a Mexican drug cartel murdered 18 young men at Salvarcar and El Aliviane, a rehab center in Ciudad Juarez, according to the report.


3. U.S. Gun-Walking Operations Conducted in Additional States, Expanded to Other Countries
The Univision News report also revealed that other ATF offices outside of Arizona initiated similar gunrunning programs.

An ATF field division in Florida reportedly launched “Operation Castaway,” which put weapons in the hands of criminals in Colombia, Honduras and Venezuela, according to Hugh Crumpler, the lead informant in the case, who talked to Univision News from a prison cell.

From ABC News:

“When the ATF stopped me, they told me the guns were going to cartels,” Hugh Crumpler, a Vietnam veteran turned arms trafficker, told Univision News. “The ATF knew before I knew and had been following me for a considerable length of time. They could not have followed me for two months like they said they did, and not know the guns were going somewhere, and not want for that to be happening.”


4. ‘Confirmed’: Jaime Zapata Was Killed With Weapons From U.S. Gun-Walking Operation
In Texas, even more weapons were allowed to cross into Mexico under ATF supervision, according to court documents and testimony of Magdalena Avila Villalobos, the sister of an Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agent who exchanged gunfire with cartel hit men alongside Jaime Zapata on a rural highway in Mexico in February 2011. Zapata was killed during the confrontation.

Villalobos told Univision News the guns that killed Zapata, and almost killed her brother, were “not from Arizona and Fast and Furious” but from a “very similar operation.”

“Those weapons that have been recovered, it’s been confirmed that they were weapons used in the shootout that killed Jaime Zapata and wounded Victor Avila,” she said.

Sens. John Cornyn (R-Texas) and Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) along with Issa have been pressing the DOJ to conduct a formal investigation into Avila‘s and Zapata’s case. However, just as with Fast and Furious, they haven’t gotten far.

5. Mexico’s Cartel Violence Spiked in 2009 During Fast and Furious
Operation Fast and Furious was supposedly a program run solely by ATF that allowed nearly 2,000 guns to “walk” out of the United States and into the hands of high-ranking cartel members so they could be tracked and federal agencies could dismantle the drug trafficking organizations. But that’s not how it worked out. The agency ultimately lost track of the firearms, leaving Mexico’s powerful drug cartels even better equipped to kill.

Mexico experienced a spike in cartel violence in 2009 while Fast and Furious was in full swing, as the gangs fought for control of various territories, Univision News reports.

Fast and Furious became public after U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry was killed in a gunfight with Mexican thugs in December of 2010. Congressional investigators, with Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.) leading the way, pushed for investigations and hearings, only to be stonewalled by Attorney General Eric Holder, the Justice Department and the White House, who claim Republicans’ interest in Fast and Furious is only political theater.

President Barack Obama moved to shield Holder and the Justice Department by invoking executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents that the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has been after for years.

Meanwhile, officials in Mexico are looking for answers because for them, Fast and Furious isn’t some metaphorical chess piece that they are manipulating for political gain. The fact of the matter is, they have lost hundreds of Mexican citizens as a result of the U.S.-run Fast and Furious — and they want the truth.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

The Canadian people after decades of socialist oppression and ration healthcare have held a referendum to join the United States of America.
Geese would have been more of a threat, mean little bastards. Moose are all just big dumb animals, little better than aquatic bovines. Plus we are training an army to fight your cyborg beasts.


Fortunately for us and unfortunately for you our political system isn't a two party system. So if we get fed up with said socialists we simply get another Albertan to take over the current Albertans position. As clearly the current Albertan is doing a terrible job of being an Albertan.

Aside from the wearing of Cowboy hats.

FYI: For those of you who don't know Alberta is the Canadian version of Texas, except they aren't afraid of snow, and have mountains.

DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ 
   
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United States

 Ouze wrote:

A.) Why buy a semi-auto $600 AK in the US and smuggle it past border security, when you can buy full-auto versions for $20 apiece from Ecuador or Nicaragua or thereabouts; and


One would think that the greater issue is cartel members buying guns from American dealers in order to ease their passage through border control, at least in terms of American gun sales related to cartels.

I agree that the gun smuggling meme is bs, though.

 Frazzled wrote:
Its not a political issue, its a bad policy one (and one for a bad novel).


It is a political issue, very clearly so. It is also bad policy, but not horrendous policy or policy that was designed to accomplish aims that were not stated; per the current evidence.

It lead to some deaths, so does most government policy; no big deal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/04 05:15:45


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

 dogma wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

A.) Why buy a semi-auto $600 AK in the US and smuggle it past border security, when you can buy full-auto versions for $20 apiece from Ecuador or Nicaragua or thereabouts; and


One would think that the greater issue is cartel members buying guns from American dealers in order to ease their passage through border control, at least in terms of American gun sales related to cartels.

I agree that the gun smuggling meme is bs, though.


As tight as Mexican gun control laws are (they don't /work/ but that's besides the point) I doubt buying firearms here makes their passage through the border any easier then using the various tunnels or other more regular "illegal goods" border trafficking. It's also a straight pain to take arms out of the United States, especially in any appreciable number. Screw that paper work up and the A.T.F will eat you alive. I think it's a matter of convenience and quality more then anything. Getting the heavy artillery from points further south's all well and good, but that's a couple countries to cross and lots of places to get interdicted. Further a weapon purchased new in the U.S. or even used is probably gonna be in a lot better condition then any small arms coming north on average. That's honestly the only reasons I can really think of for weapons trafficking from here to there.... now the cartels bringing automatic weapons north, THAT I could totally understand.

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Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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United States

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

That's honestly the only reasons I can really think of for weapons trafficking from here to there.... now the cartels bringing automatic weapons north, THAT I could totally understand.


You misunderstand, I'm saying that the cartels have a natural incentive to buy weapons off American dealers in order to maintain their caches in America because it necessarily minimizes risk.

In essence, the weapons don't move, just the people.

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The Great State of Texas

 dogma wrote:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

That's honestly the only reasons I can really think of for weapons trafficking from here to there.... now the cartels bringing automatic weapons north, THAT I could totally understand.


You misunderstand, I'm saying that the cartels have a natural incentive to buy weapons off American dealers in order to maintain their caches in America because it necessarily minimizes risk.

In essence, the weapons don't move, just the people.


Not really.
The non-US weaponry they can acquire is substantially better. They can transport tons of drugs north and thousands of vehicles south, a few AK-74s and 47s are not a problem.

Revolvers and pistols are a little more equal and some of the high end rifles come from the US because thats where they are made. But the real killy stuff - never comes from the US civilian market. US sales to Mexico military - oh yea, lots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 11:53:37


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 Frazzled wrote:
 dogma wrote:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

That's honestly the only reasons I can really think of for weapons trafficking from here to there.... now the cartels bringing automatic weapons north, THAT I could totally understand.


You misunderstand, I'm saying that the cartels have a natural incentive to buy weapons off American dealers in order to maintain their caches in America because it necessarily minimizes risk.

In essence, the weapons don't move, just the people.


Not really.
The non-US weaponry they can acquire is substantially better. They can transport tons of drugs north and thousands of vehicles south, a few AK-74s and 47s are not a problem.

Revolvers and pistols are a little more equal and some of the high end rifles come from the US because thats where they are made. But the real killy stuff - never comes from the US civilian market. US sales to Mexico military - oh yea, lots.


Right, they've got squad sized elements moving openly across the border and they are well armed. These people don't need to feth around with this type of thing.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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