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 GreyHamster wrote:
Welcome to Khorne worship, where everything is overcosted and the benefits don't matter.

I have no existing Chaos army, but I was planning a small Khorne warband. I seriously consider switching to Nurgle...

 Crimson wrote:

 Robbietobbie wrote:


yup!

Well that sucks. In first round of CC you are forced to sacrifice your leader, dropping your Ld and making the entire squad more likely to rout.

My Khornate CC cultists will be a blast!

Keep in mind that you can only issue/accept challenges if engaged with an enemy model - so if you cult leader is at the back of a 30-man squad, you can probably avoid having him rush straight onto some marine sergeant's chainsword.

Surely the whole point of Cultists is that they rush in and try to swamp the Marines with sheer number of sttacks before they all die.

Even with the Champion (Ld8?), if they lose the combat they will liekly get swept anyway. But with 30 cc cultists on the charge agasint 10 marines you have a half decent chance of taking them out with that many attacks (3 each is it?). if not then have a shooty marine or terminator unit ready to mop up the surviving marines.

 Swara wrote:
Those with the Codex, am I reading it right that you can take a lord/sorcerer w/ terminator armor AND a mount?

Nope. Terminator armor explicitly forbids taking a mount.

Anyone else get all tittilated at the fact T6 nurgle bikers are only 23 points?

30 of them, plus a bike lord, and enough nurglemarines to hold objectives fit nicely into 1500pts.

How does one go about fighting that much T6, aside from poison?

OK, bunch of new questions:

Can Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord get an artificer armour equivalent?

Is there any way for either of them to get an Eternal Warrior?

What sort of invulnerable saves are available?

Is there a collar of Khorne?

Can anyone besides the Helbrute get thunderhammer?

Can anyone besides terminators get chainfists?

Can Aspiring Champions get lightning claws?

1: No. Powerarmour or termintor armour.

2: No.

4: Purchasable 5+ and 4+, which can be upgraded by 1 with mark of Tzeench.

5: No, although Kharn has a 2+ deny the witch.

6: No

7: No.

8: Yes, any champion/sergeant could have two lightningclaws.

 Crimson wrote:
OK, bunch of new questions:

Can Daemon Prince or Chaos Lord get an artificer armour equivalent?

Is there any way for either of them to get an Eternal Warrior?

What sort of invulnerable saves are available?

Is there a collar of Khorne?

Can anyone besides the Helbrute get thunderhammer?

Can anyone besides terminators get chainfists?

Can Aspiring Champions get lightning claws?

1. The lord can take Termi armour, thats it.

2. None that I have seen

3. 5+ and a 4+

4. No

5. No

6. Mutilators can dual weild them as part of their weapon choice

7. Yes but 2 are very expensive.

 McGibs wrote:
Anyone else get all tittilated at the fact T6 nurgle bikers are only 23 points?

30 of them, plus a bike lord, and enough nurglemarines to hold objectives fit nicely into 1500pts.

How does one go about fighting that much T6, aside from poison?

26 actually. MoN is 6 each for bikes. Still awesome

You fight that much T6 with a battery of Medusas, or massed plasmaguns, or daemonhammer spamming GK Terminators, who activate their force weapons to deny your FnP.

But theyre also bikes, and are in your face on turn two.
With the base size of bikes, with proper spacing, large blasts will only hit 2 or 3 guys at most. Plasguns are wounding on 3s. GK termies get kited and shot to death (2/3 plasguns or meltagun per squad, plus 7 twin linked bolters)
They dont have FNP so... whatever.

33 T6 wounds is like killing 8 carnifexes.

I initially liked this codex based on the rumours, but more I learn of it,less I like it... Oh well.


But more quesions:

If there are more than one character in an unit, can you then decide who issues the compulsory challenge?

Apostles give the Zealot rule to the unit he joins, right?

What sort of gear options the Apostle has?

An Apostle leading a group of 35 Zealots might not be too bad, especially if you can keep him alive. At least, they couldn't be sweeping advanced.

 kcwm wrote:
An Apostle leading a group of 35 Zealots might not be too bad, especially if you can keep him alive. At least, they couldn't be sweeping advanced.

Yeah, I was thinking exactly this. And in this case MoK on cultists could almost be worth it, as you want as many attacks as possible on that first round of combat to get full benefit of the hatred.

 McGibs wrote:
But theyre also bikes, and are in your face on turn two.
With the base size of bikes, with proper spacing, large blasts will only hit 2 or 3 guys at most. Plasguns are wounding on 3s. GK termies get kited and shot to death (2/3 plasguns or meltagun per squad, plus 7 twin linked bolters)
They dont have FNP so... whatever.

33 T6 wounds is like killing 8 carnifexes.

That's like.... 780 points I think?

Imagine just filling up the rest leftover with an allied Epidemius list and the mandatory MoN stuff from the CSM codex. Everything would be slow.... and then you bring out the bikes.

Wait, does Epidemius still work with MoN in the new 'dex?

I dont see why people are so excited over the flak missiles. They're really not that amazing if the points costs we're hearing are right. It costs almost as much to buy 4 havocs with skyfire missles as it does to just buy an aegis defence line with a quadgun. and the quadgun can be manned by a scrub, be more accurate, and is less likely to die. I guess with the quad gun and max havocs you could get some decent AA without buying that hideous flyer, but thats about the only reason I can think of.

I don't know how I feel about that. The fact that the aegis feels way too cheap or that the flakk upgrade feels too expensive. This is not a good sign of how much other codexes' AA will cost in the future. If we're going to have to pay a ton for AA, flyers might not get that "kick in the teeth" that we were hoping they would.

Also, random question, but whats the AV on the dragon flyer? I want to know how easy it is to shoot down.

 Crimson wrote:
I initially liked this codex based on the rumours, but more I learn of it,less I like it... Oh well.


But more quesions:

If there are more than one character in an unit, can you then decide who issues the compulsory challenge?

Apostles give the Zealot rule to the unit he joins, right?

What sort of gear options the Apostle has?

1. Yes

2. I think so

3. Ranged, rewards (no mounts) and artifacts. His equipment is indentical to a Chaplains.

The Helldrake is 12/12/10 with 3 HPs

Palindrome wrote:

3. Ranged, rewards (no mounts) and artifacts. His equipment is indentical to a Chaplains.

Soo... he is stuck with the maul then? That kinda limits his potential as CC powerhouse.

 Crimson wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

3. Ranged, rewards (no mounts) and artifacts. His equipment is indentical to a Chaplains.

Soo... he is stuck with the maul then? That kinda limits his potential as CC powerhouse.

He can take deamon weapons. His 2 attacks limit their effectiveness though.

I forgot what the daemon weapons do...

 Crimson wrote:
I forgot what the daemon weapons do...

Extra d6 attacks, rolling a 1 makes you 1WS for the round.

Palindrome wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

3. Ranged, rewards (no mounts) and artifacts. His equipment is indentical to a Chaplains.

Soo... he is stuck with the maul then? That kinda limits his potential as CC powerhouse.

He can take deamon weapons. His 2 attacks limit their effectiveness though.

Dude, deamon weapons give you plus d6 attacks. unless you roll a one, where it bites you back.

 Swara wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I forgot what the daemon weapons do...

Extra d6 attacks, rolling a 1 makes you 1WS for the round.

Plus their various special rules. There are 3 melee ones (basically a sword,an axe and a mace) with extra abilities, the axe is a power axe that reduces your WS by 1 but strikes at I order and gives you the rage USR for example, there is also a S4 AP 3 flamer (but its not technically a deamon weapon). They are expensive at 30-45 points. The sword isn't listed as a deamon weapon, its basically a power sword except against a specific character chosen by you where it becomes S x2 AP1 and causes instant death.

If you roll a 1 for your attacks you take a wound with no armour save allowed (you still get invulnerable and FNP though) and are reduced to WS 1 for the rest of the phase.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I dont see why people are so excited over the flak missiles. They're really not that amazing if the points costs we're hearing are right. It costs almost as much to buy 4 havocs with skyfire missles as it does to just buy an aegis defence line with a quadgun. and the quadgun can be manned by a scrub, be more accurate, and is less likely to die.

There's a few things you are missing here. Firstly it isn't about raving how good they are, its just the fact that they are an AA option that many armies have sorely needed, and now we have them. Your assertion that they are comparable to an ADL with Quad Gun is wrong, because you also need a unit to man that gun, and given that the unit is then forced to shoot at that flyer also (likely with guns that mostly can't hurt it) that units cost is now part of that comparison. Also saying the gun is less likely to die is a very shallow and incorrect statement that is leaving out a lot of facts. First and foremost, once the gun is killed that's all of that firepower gone, whereas with the Havocs you have to kill all 5 of them, with the first being the useless Sergeant. So once the gun takes 2W that's no AA shots, but once the Havocs have taken 2W there are still 3 AA shots left. Also it takes 54 Bolter shots to kill the gun and 45 to kill the Havocs, so it doesn't take much more regular arms fire to kill the gun. Less noticeable, but the Havocs can also contest objectives and can't be used by the enemy.

I'm not saying the gun isn't good, as it is at the least a comparable option, but there are tonnes of reasons to take the Havocs.

Palindrome wrote:the axe is a power axe that reduces your WS by 1 but strikes at I order and gives you the rage USR for example.

Actually technically it doesn't, as in order to take the Axe you need to buy the Mark of Khorne first, which means the model already has the Rage USR. Simply put, its presence on the weapon is 100% pointless.

Thoughts on this army list? It's 1500 with a combo of Khorne and Nurgle. :3
Supposed to be kinda fluffy.
Also bikes have a lot of potential, they're so darn cheap.

And you deal with flyers how?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Thoughts on this army list? It's 1500 with a combo of Khorne and Nurgle. :3
Supposed to be kinda fluffy.
Also bikes have a lot of potential, they're so darn cheap.

Spoiler:

=HQ= [155]
Chaos Lord-65 (145) {joins with the Chaos Bikers}
Mark of Khorne
Juggernaut
Axe of Blind Fury

=Troops= [578]
Chaos Space Marines-75 (144)
3x Additional Marines
1x Plasma Gun
Champion has a Power Mace

Chaos Space Marines-75 (144)
3x Additional Marines
1x Plasma Gun
Champion has a Power Mace

Chaos Cultists-50 (145)
20x Additional Cultists
3x Heavy Stubbers

Chaos Cultists-50 (145)
20x Additional Cultists
3x Heavy Stubbers


=Elites= [306]
Chaos Terminators-95 (153)
1x Additional Terminator with Chainfist-43
3x Combi-Meltas
Mark of Khorne
All have Power Axes

Chaos Terminators-95 (153)
1x Additional Terminator with Chainfist
3x Combi-Meltas
All have Power Axes


=Heavy Support= [304]
2x Obliterators-140 (152)
Mark of Nurgle

1x Obliterator-70 (76)
Mark of Nurgle

1x Obliterator-70 (76)
Mark of Nurgle

=Fast Attack= (164)
7x Chaos Bikers-150 (164)
Mark of Khorne

The marine squads are really vulnerable and a lot of your units have no realy synergy

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
And you deal with flyers how?

Haha I'm fine vs one or two with the Obliterators and the Asscannons, but obviously not playing vs Necron Flier Spam which is an extreme army anyway. What would you recommend?

@ AngrySquig, I basically just added a bunch of stuff I thought would be cool to play with, where could I add some synergy?

Ok I guess that makes more sense. However, the bikers don't.

Why on earth are they 5pts cheaper per bike than regular ork warbikers? Is the dakkaguns and 4+ persistent cover save enough to warrant that higher price? Bear in mind I'm not familiar with chaos bikes, so maybe there's something I'm missing about them.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
And you deal with flyers how?

Haha I'm fine vs one or two with the Obliterators and the Asscannons, but obviously not playing vs Necron Flier Spam which is an extreme army anyway. What would you recommend?

The unit of 2 Oblits gets 1.3hits on average against flyers with the Assault Cannons (if they are in range, which flyers can stay out of with ease), and then take 0.43 HP from AV11 or 0.22 HP from AV12. And those are as you surmised your best chances, which as you can see isn't enough. I know it is a fluffy list, but you still want to be able to have a chance against flyers, and I'm not talking about a full Necron air force here, even a single Storm Raven could easily ruin your day.

Three options in the book can do AA pretty well; Heldrakes, Havocs, and Forgefiends, and I would rate them in that order from most effective decreasing.