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The Brand of Skatgjabntwpjtbawjp-impossiblespelling is pretty much a complete fit for a Sonic Weapon for Lords though. And sure, it's just Bolters, until you throw Symphony of Pain on something.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Brand of Skatgjabntwpjtbawjp-impossiblespelling is pretty much a complete fit for a Sonic Weapon for Lords though. And sure, it's just Bolters, until you throw Symphony of Pain on something.

Which is a Khornate weapon, which people think is Tzeentchian. Sure it works as a counts-as though

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Or, you know, CSM with allied Guard. Just because they prefer heavy weapons doesn't change the fact that they're marines with heavy weapons, not tons of guardsmen with a few marines sprinkled in.

Just my 2cents, but if the answer to issues with a codex is to take allies, then to me that highlights...issues with said codex. I expect a codex, any codex, to be able to stand by itself w/o players feeling like they are forced to take allies because their native codex falls short. None of my friends who play BA/SW/GK/Crons ever feel it necessary to take allies because their codex falls short, in any way close to how people are feeling about this new codex. Yes, you are correct - a lot of complaints can be addressed by taking allies, but as others have mentioned, that actually highlights multiple issues with the codex itself.

Now I will admit that there is a difference between feeling that you need to take allies due to fluff and feeling that you need to take allies due to issues of competitiveness, but when you are talking about CSM, there have been past codices that at least threw a bone to players of Legion lists other than the major ones. This is probably all that a lot of people with these complaints want, is some sort of attention paid to them. IW for starters, how many still have basilisks, lol? How many want a return to having a bonus heavy slot for a reduction of FA slots? Wasn't it Night Lords who got a bonus to cover saves? Etc, etc etc. While other people are looking at the new allies matrix to figure out new, OP lists, people in this thread are telling people to take allies AS A BASELINE.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Land Raiders don't exist anymore? Also, why would you need scoring Assault Marines when you can get essentially the same thing for 13 PPM, but with access to marks?

Change what he said to "...no practical assault delivery vehicles". If you play Chaos I would assume that you should have known what he was referring to w/o splitting hairs lol. A lot of players think that the stock LR is too expensive and has too small a payload for its cost, and rhinos are not assault. They could have just given Chaos access to a Crusader and that may have alleviated a lot of complaints, and I remember rumors of a new Chaos transport that got cut from the codex (wasn't sure if that was bunk or not). Regardless, I don't think that is a new issue, either. And that's just the tip of the iceberg in regards to a WE/BA comparison too, not the least of which is DC - relentless (if not mistaken, going from memory), access to power weapons, PF, TH, can take jump packs, overall more options for EVERYTHING, FnP...again, going off of memory so some of that may be off. Still, there are other armies with units that are essentially so much closer to what people WANT CSM units to be (like comparing zerkers to DC) as opposed to what Chaos players are getting that it's kind of sad. I think Berzerkers are the perfect example - limited transport, snipeable icons, 2 PP, I mean I'd almost find it insulting if I was a player who had put major time into a pure WE force to see zerkers just made cheaper. "Less is more" is kind of ridiculous when other armies surely weren't treated like that - and I mean, compare the cost of DC to the cost of berserkers. And what makes that comparison even worse is when you talk to a BA player who doesn't like taking DC because they have better alternative options. Chaos players are supposed to be happy with units like bersekers when (arguably) other armies don't take units that are (based on opinion) better? And don't even get me started on really old berserker options when EVERY model could take assault weapon upgrades (chainsword/axe, power axe, power fist, hand flamer, PP). That isn't to say that there aren't good thing being added back INTO the codex (vehicle blade upgrades, TH+Power scourges added back in) but even then that's more putting stuff back in that shouldn't have been removed in the first place, and that still won't hold a candle to stuff that some codexes got like blood talons.

As an aside, I'm not even sure that the points for chainaxes is worth it. Against MEQs and armies with good armor they will be completely and utterly pointless (I guess you don't have to buy them, that's the best you can say about them) and against some armies I might actually prefer not to have chainaxes so that a squad has a slightly lower chance of blowing through them and being left in the open to be shot in the next turn. Either way, I would question the point in chainaxes as I don't think zerkers are going to really be hurting in CC against someone like Tau. Now, if they had an old-school armor mod (like -1 to armor saves) they'd be awesome w/o having them be OP with all PWs, but oh well. In my mind that makes vanilla CSMs with MoK even more appealing, to be honest.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Allies?

Again, if every answer is "ALLIES" then to me that signals shortfalls with the core codex.

 Deadshot wrote:
Uh, yeah, that's how the whole game works.

Not really...no. There is a big difference between relying on dice during the game, and having to rely on dice before the game starts but after your list is made just to SEE if your list will be viable in regards to your tactic. In this case, infiltrate. You'll either be forced to cross your fingers and hope that you roll good, otherwise you're at a disadvantage before the game starts, or you might be forced to take a character for counts as that isn't even remotely similar to what you'd like to take. Now contrast this to back when CSM could purchase USR-type stuff by the squad. Want to infiltrate a unit? Spend the points, no dice involved, your strat is GTG. Sure, that was before it came stock on Chosen but at least then you could just buy and use Chosen, and that was just similar to back in 2nd when Chosen were Veterans and got Infiltrate as a stock option anyways.

This was IMHO why Possessed weren't popular, besides their points cost. Want to take a rhino? Well you have to decide while making your list, then hope that you don't get some sort of redundant D6 roll before the game starts.



Honestly, it isn't that the codex is BAD, it's that the codex is mediocre. You will have a combination of old players wanting a return to the "glory days" of Chaos but are disappointed because this codex didn't really deliver, and newer players who will think that it's "OK" but not really on par with a number of other codexes in terms of power. Putting out a "balanced" points codex is one thing, but to put it out after power creep has already peaked just means that the codex isn't that attractive by comparison. As an old player I'm just left feeling disappointed. And I don't care how pretty the book is or how much fluff is in it, for what they are charging the army lists should have been far more robust and accommodating. Period.

^^Agreed - well said ^^^

Kevlar wrote:

 kcwm wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I just have to ask: how in god's name do you take 31 wounds from two frag missiles? you can't even fit 10 models under a small blast plate

You can fit 13 under a small blast template. If you center the hole under it, it clips the bases of 13 figures. Do a google search, the images are out there.

The other player made two direct hits. That equals 26 wounds and the other deviated to make up the rest.

I didn't space them out. I made it as easy as possible for me to move 105 units. I also didn't think about the placement of my bikes. I was working under a pretty tight time limit.

That isn't 26 wounds, it is 26 hits even though I find that hard to belive. You still get cover and FNP saves too. So 2/3 wound, 2/3 cover, 2/3 FNP mean even 26 hits is only 7 unsaved wounds. You are either exaggerating or full of it.

You know, we forgot to roll for wounds. I wasn't in cover and only made 10 FNP saves. He rolled three frag missiles, made two direct hits and one deviated and still hit 5.

Our group typically doesn't use frag missiles. We forgot.

I have no reason to exaggerate or be full of it. But, hey, if it makes you feel better to be an ass on an internet forum, have at it.

I wish I could Sig the entirety of what Erronius said....all disappointed chaos players should exalt his post, let our anguish be heard!

 Spartan089 wrote:
I wish I could Sig the entirety of what Erronius said....all disappointed chaos players should exalt his post, let our anguish be heard!

I second that! You put that brilliantly Erronius. It's patently clear you are a long time chaos player and with that comes real understanding of the codex rather than another faction player who has merely just read the codex. Cheers mate.

I feel the Zerker rage. It's like GW lied to me as a boy...;-P. "These are the chosen of Khorne, the god of war, blood and skulls". Really? That's his chosen? I'll go with the god of beer thanks.....

Agreed, I feel really annoyed at this codex.....we have been been well and truly buggered by GW on this occasion.

The previous book was actually better and that is an appalling situation to be in.

Lets share our pain and anquish openly lol

Erronius wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Or, you know, CSM with allied Guard. Just because they prefer heavy weapons doesn't change the fact that they're marines with heavy weapons, not tons of guardsmen with a few marines sprinkled in.

Just my 2cents, but if the answer to issues with a codex is to take allies, then to me that highlights...issues with said codex. I expect a codex, any codex, to be able to stand by itself w/o players feeling like they are forced to take allies because their native codex falls short. None of my friends who play BA/SW/GK/Crons ever feel it necessary to take allies because their codex falls short, in any way close to how people are feeling about this new codex. Yes, you are correct - a lot of complaints can be addressed by taking allies, but as others have mentioned, that actually highlights multiple issues with the codex itself.

Now I will admit that there is a difference between feeling that you need to take allies due to fluff and feeling that you need to take allies due to issues of competitiveness, but when you are talking about CSM, there have been past codices that at least threw a bone to players of Legion lists other than the major ones. This is probably all that a lot of people with these complaints want, is some sort of attention paid to them. IW for starters, how many still have basilisks, lol? How many want a return to having a bonus heavy slot for a reduction of FA slots? Wasn't it Night Lords who got a bonus to cover saves? Etc, etc etc. While other people are looking at the new allies matrix to figure out new, OP lists, people in this thread are telling people to take allies AS A BASELINE.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Land Raiders don't exist anymore? Also, why would you need scoring Assault Marines when you can get essentially the same thing for 13 PPM, but with access to marks?

Change what he said to "...no practical assault delivery vehicles". If you play Chaos I would assume that you should have known what he was referring to w/o splitting hairs lol. A lot of players think that the stock LR is too expensive and has too small a payload for its cost, and rhinos are not assault. They could have just given Chaos access to a Crusader and that may have alleviated a lot of complaints, and I remember rumors of a new Chaos transport that got cut from the codex (wasn't sure if that was bunk or not). Regardless, I don't think that is a new issue, either. And that's just the tip of the iceberg in regards to a WE/BA comparison too, not the least of which is DC - relentless (if not mistaken, going from memory), access to power weapons, PF, TH, can take jump packs, overall more options for EVERYTHING, FnP...again, going off of memory so some of that may be off. Still, there are other armies with units that are essentially so much closer to what people WANT CSM units to be (like comparing zerkers to DC) as opposed to what Chaos players are getting that it's kind of sad. I think Berzerkers are the perfect example - limited transport, snipeable icons, 2 PP, I mean I'd almost find it insulting if I was a player who had put major time into a pure WE force to see zerkers just made cheaper. "Less is more" is kind of ridiculous when other armies surely weren't treated like that - and I mean, compare the cost of DC to the cost of berserkers. And what makes that comparison even worse is when you talk to a BA player who doesn't like taking DC because they have better alternative options. Chaos players are supposed to be happy with units like bersekers when (arguably) other armies don't take units that are (based on opinion) better? And don't even get me started on really old berserker options when EVERY model could take assault weapon upgrades (chainsword/axe, power axe, power fist, hand flamer, PP). That isn't to say that there aren't good thing being added back INTO the codex (vehicle blade upgrades, TH+Power scourges added back in) but even then that's more putting stuff back in that shouldn't have been removed in the first place, and that still won't hold a candle to stuff that some codexes got like blood talons.

As an aside, I'm not even sure that the points for chainaxes is worth it. Against MEQs and armies with good armor they will be completely and utterly pointless (I guess you don't have to buy them, that's the best you can say about them) and against some armies I might actually prefer not to have chainaxes so that a squad has a slightly lower chance of blowing through them and being left in the open to be shot in the next turn. Either way, I would question the point in chainaxes as I don't think zerkers are going to really be hurting in CC against someone like Tau. Now, if they had an old-school armor mod (like -1 to armor saves) they'd be awesome w/o having them be OP with all PWs, but oh well. In my mind that makes vanilla CSMs with MoK even more appealing, to be honest.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Allies?

Again, if every answer is "ALLIES" then to me that signals shortfalls with the core codex.

 Deadshot wrote:
Uh, yeah, that's how the whole game works.

Not really...no. There is a big difference between relying on dice during the game, and having to rely on dice before the game starts but after your list is made just to SEE if your list will be viable in regards to your tactic. In this case, infiltrate. You'll either be forced to cross your fingers and hope that you roll good, otherwise you're at a disadvantage before the game starts, or you might be forced to take a character for counts as that isn't even remotely similar to what you'd like to take. Now contrast this to back when CSM could purchase USR-type stuff by the squad. Want to infiltrate a unit? Spend the points, no dice involved, your strat is GTG. Sure, that was before it came stock on Chosen but at least then you could just buy and use Chosen, and that was just similar to back in 2nd when Chosen were Veterans and got Infiltrate as a stock option anyways.

This was IMHO why Possessed weren't popular, besides their points cost. Want to take a rhino? Well you have to decide while making your list, then hope that you don't get some sort of redundant D6 roll before the game starts.



Honestly, it isn't that the codex is BAD, it's that the codex is mediocre. You will have a combination of old players wanting a return to the "glory days" of Chaos but are disappointed because this codex didn't really deliver, and newer players who will think that it's "OK" but not really on par with a number of other codexes in terms of power. Putting out a "balanced" points codex is one thing, but to put it out after power creep has already peaked just means that the codex isn't that attractive by comparison. As an old player I'm just left feeling disappointed. And I don't care how pretty the book is or how much fluff is in it, for what they are charging the army lists should have been far more robust and accommodating. Period.

All your ranting about allies is kinda pointless, if I want Gue'vesa for Tau, I ally with guard, IF YOU WANT A MORE FLUFFY ARMY, ALLY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO YOUR ARMY IS ALLIED WITH. It is one of the brilliant parts of 6th edition rules!

Instead of the old, bland, Daemons of no-one the old dex gave you, you can take Daemon allies, THE RULES ARE IN PLACE FOR A REASON. This dex was written for 6th edition so that allies could be used! Take advantage of what is given to you man, the dex is not bad at all, not by any stretch. Stop complaining about a mediocre codex, which really isn't that mediocre. Do you think that Orks are mediocre? They are the most competitive 4th edition codex (as far as I have seen), yes, the Imperium gets an absolutely ridiculous amount of love from fluff and rules writers, but Grey Knights are by no means unbeatable. The army list can be built well, just like Necrons, and you can bring the pain on most armies pretty easily. While you had many more legitimate complaints than others, IT STILL IS NOT AS BAD AS YOU PORTRAY. It has its weaknesses, but all good book do. Not everyone can be Grey Knights and Space Wolves. This codex is on par with Necrons (Maybe not the air force, but most Necrons) so PLEASE STOP.

I like the codex. I think it represents the flavors of Chaos Space Marine very well, even if it isn't the super powerful list everyone wants. If a codex is like that, its called codex creep by every player besides those that use it. Mediocrity means its balanced and on par with the other army books that proceeded it. People who want the "glory days" want something that probably never should have happened in the first place and are largely recounting a period where our codex wasn't fair. The 3.5ed Codex was the "glory days" in representing everything in significant detail and maybe every other codex should have followed its example, but in the absence of that it was just too much given the scope GW chose. This new codex is better than its immediate predescessor.

I wasnt looking for overpowered - just sensible....

No option for raptors as troops, no infiltrators unless you take a named character or get a dice roll, warpsmith and dark apostle should be elite slot, dreadnoughts gone and replaced by a hellbrute (WTF), no option for drop-pods, no new troop carrier, silly space zoids, demon princes nerfed, noise marines nerfed, obliterators nerfed, defiler too expensive, space zoid too cheap, sily flyer, must have abbadon to unlock chosen as troops....

i could carry on for ever but I cant be bothered.....missed opportunity in my opinion...

I look at other codex's such as space wolves, blood angels, grey knights and they are good books because there is something for everyone - You can keep coming back to them for different builds - this one I just hate because it is too restrictive for my tastes

I'm more worried about facing this book than wolves, BA or GK. Wolves can't deal with my air units. BA are a joke (have never lost to then) and GK are range 24 foot sloggers backed by a few psyflemen (kill the dreads then pick everything else apart at range). Those opinions are all from extensive playtesting + tournament experience. This new dex is scarier for me as a DE player.

Dookie wrote:
Am i the only one that is pissed with the removal of dreadnoughts. Ok its the hellbrute now but still.

Ive got 4 metal dreadnoughts but hey they've taken them out of the codex so feth me.


Really bs

You just answered your own question....hellbrute=dreadnought=hellbrute.

Keep using your minis. Who cares? I still have a rogue trader chaos dreadnought figure in my Slaaneshi army...

Skriker

Lovepug13 wrote:
I wasnt looking for overpowered - just sensible....

No option for raptors as troops, no infiltrators unless you take a named character or get a dice roll, warpsmith and dark apostle should be elite slot, dreadnoughts gone and replaced by a hellbrute (WTF), no option for drop-pods, no new troop carrier, silly space zoids, demon princes nerfed, noise marines nerfed, obliterators nerfed, defiler too expensive, space zoid too cheap, sily flyer, must have abbadon to unlock chosen as troops....

i could carry on for ever but I cant be bothered.....missed opportunity in my opinion...

I look at other codex's such as space wolves, blood angels, grey knights and they are good books because there is something for everyone - You can keep coming back to them for different builds - this one I just hate because it is too restrictive for my tastes

I play noise marines, I don't think they're nerfed just different.

I think this guy points out alot of the worthwhile gains:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/480686.page#4843310

IMO, the only blah units in the book are Defilers, Possessed, and Mutilators... and a few of the special characters... but everything else has some means of viable use.

Are plague zombies a viable unit?(They were mentioned in the white dwarf?) I'm really tempted to do a nurgle-zombie -typhus list

 blood lance wrote:
Are plague zombies a viable unit?(They were mentioned in the white dwarf?) I'm really tempted to do a nurgle-zombie -typhus list

I'm hoping we see alot of plague zombie lists. The concensus is that its a more than worthwile trade off and produces a viable unit with the only caveat being the unit can't take any upgrades and some players are taking RAW to say that taking additional cultists is an upgrade. Reasonably it should be FAQ'd since 10 model hordes of zombies don't impose the cinematic feel GW was obviously going for.

I think you should use these:
http://www.studiominiatures.com/Shop/Germans.html
Besides being Nazi-zombies they also come out to only $1/mini.

That is neato to hear. Ill read up the codex and decide on other shtuff. Looking forward to it. Nurgle always was cooler.

vonevilstein wrote:
I second that! You put that brilliantly Erronius. It's patently clear you are a long time chaos player and with that comes real understanding of the codex rather than another faction player who has merely just read the codex. Cheers mate.

I feel the Zerker rage. It's like GW lied to me as a boy...;-P. "These are the chosen of Khorne, the god of war, blood and skulls". Really? That's his chosen? I'll go with the god of beer thanks.....

I am a long time chaos player and started my collection about 25 years ago. Erronius' post misses one important aspect of things: This is exactly how GW does business and has done business since back then. Not a single chaos codex that has come out has done so without a lot of hoopla and complaining about people's wants not being met. Anyone who has been a long time chaos player, heck GW game player period, should know that as a fact and by now be able to accept it and move on and not start crying every time a new version of their favorite book comes out and isn't exactly what they wanted it to be. GW makes the lists they want to make, not that their customers want them to make. They are never going to make a list that pleases everyone. Such a list would be 500 pages long and unusuable because it would be full of so many special rules.

It helps when you play the game you focus on "playing the game" and not "playing the rules". Play the rules and every little change will ruin the game for you. Play the game and the rules are just what helps facilitate the action on the table.

Skriker






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lovepug13 wrote:
I wasnt looking for overpowered - just sensible....

No option for raptors as troops, no infiltrators unless you take a named character or get a dice roll, warpsmith and dark apostle should be elite slot, dreadnoughts gone and replaced by a hellbrute (WTF), no option for drop-pods, no new troop carrier, silly space zoids, demon princes nerfed, noise marines nerfed, obliterators nerfed, defiler too expensive, space zoid too cheap, sily flyer, must have abbadon to unlock chosen as troops....

i could carry on for ever but I cant be bothered.....missed opportunity in my opinion...

I look at other codex's such as space wolves, blood angels, grey knights and they are good books because there is something for everyone - You can keep coming back to them for different builds - this one I just hate because it is too restrictive for my tastes

There are plenty of different builds in the new Chaos book as well, but you are too worried about what was nerfed to see any of them. Your loss.

Oh and jump pack troops isn't "sensible" it fits in the over powered category in my book. Dreadnoughts gone and replaced by a unit that is almost exactly the same, but called something different, how awful! You can get the dreadtalon drop pod rules from Forge World, which are not limited to Apocalypse games. What new troop carrier should they have? Daemon princes cost changed, still useful. Noise marine weapons changed, still useful. Obliterators changed, but still useful. Defiler more expensive and also has a bunch of new special features that you ignore. Should it have gotten the upgrades and gotten cheaper? Silly flyer? In your opinion. Also still have the hellblade available from Forge world which works just fine. So abaddon to take the elite of the elite as troops? Oh my how positively ruinous for chaos lists.

Your last line shows us what your real problem with the book is: Not the uber-codex you expected/hoped for.


Skriker

Again naming things to use to supplement the codex especially forge world shows that you don't get the point. First forge world is not widely available nor does everyone allow in the first place even for casual games let alone tournaments. Codexs like GK, Crons, SW, BA, and IG can all make competitive and fluffy lists. They are perfect standalone books, that don't even need allies or FW. The chaos codex should be able to stand on its own, which it does not.

 Skriker wrote:

vonevilstein wrote:
I second that! You put that brilliantly Erronius. It's patently clear you are a long time chaos player and with that comes real understanding of the codex rather than another faction player who has merely just read the codex. Cheers mate.

I feel the Zerker rage. It's like GW lied to me as a boy...;-P. "These are the chosen of Khorne, the god of war, blood and skulls". Really? That's his chosen? I'll go with the god of beer thanks.....

I am a long time chaos player and started my collection about 25 years ago. Erronius' post misses one important aspect of things: This is exactly how GW does business and has done business since back then. Not a single chaos codex that has come out has done so without a lot of hoopla and complaining about people's wants not being met. Anyone who has been a long time chaos player, heck GW game player period, should know that as a fact and by now be able to accept it and move on and not start crying every time a new version of their favorite book comes out and isn't exactly what they wanted it to be. GW makes the lists they want to make, not that their customers want them to make. They are never going to make a list that pleases everyone. Such a list would be 500 pages long and unusuable because it would be full of so many special rules.

It helps when you play the game you focus on "playing the game" and not "playing the rules". Play the rules and every little change will ruin the game for you. Play the game and the rules are just what helps facilitate the action on the table.

Skriker

I agree, though I believe GW tried to accomadate different chaos players as much possible. The Warpsmith, Dark Apostle, cultists, the inclusion of marks and icons availablte to a number of units, the inclusion of veterans of the long war... these all allow a player to thematically build their army. I feel this is really as far GW wants to take codicies when it comes to representing sub-factions and that a lot of what some players want goes to such a degree that GW wouldn't do those things except as a separate book. Between marks and veterans of the long war they've thematically doubled the variations in unit builds while allowing the codex to cover the gambit of Renegades and Legionaires... while representing varying degrees of devotion to the different dark gods. The codex has widen the difference between Loyalist and Chaos, by emphasizing the units that are most distinctively Chaos.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Again naming things to use to supplement the codex especially forge world shows that you don't get the point. First forge world is not widely available nor does everyone allow in the first place even for casual games let alone tournaments. Codexs like GK, Crons, SW, BA, and IG can all make competitive and fluffy lists. They are perfect standalone books, that don't even need allies or FW. The chaos codex should be able to stand on its own, which it does not.

I think it does. His point wasn't to say you should rely on the FW models, but rather they can supplement this codex to allow you to play it in ways other than how it was intended. The simple fact is GW doesn't want to borrow anymore units from FW, so demanding something that FW's created is a dream destined to fail. You want a self standing codex, but no codex lives upto what Lovepug13 suggests. I think Striker is simply pointing out the highly subjective aspects of the guys compalints.


Lovepug13 wants raptors as troops, infiltrators, the warpsmith and dark apostle as elite, drop-pods, a new troop carrier... but why should this Codex have this... If you suggest to Nightlords that their army be represented by Raptors as troops, they say they don't think so... so what exactly does that represent?-And who's really asking for it?-*shrug* More infiltrators... for who?-Alpha Legion... none of the other Legions are really getting this kind of army wide rule, it doesn't make sense for them to be elevated. I'm inclind to agree chosen should have retained it, but its not exactly something armies were built entirely around. Warpsmith and dark apostles are derived from units which were HQ's... it seems rather arbitrary for them to be demoted when they're intended to represnt the leaders of particular flavors of armies. Chaos doesn't have drop pods, even FW's model isn't a drop pod, its boarding pod that can take off and land again... so I don't even know if there is a basis for wanting this beside Loyalist Marine-envy. A new troop-carrier sure would be the bees-knees but once again we'd be asking for something that inevitably ends with "why don't loyalists have that?"

Can you choose to take the warlord trait from either this book or the BRB, or must you take the warlord traits from this book if you play Chaos Space Marines?

Lovepug13 wrote:


i could carry on for ever but I cant be bothered.....missed opportunity in my opinion...

You have been carrying on about it forever in every Chaos thread created, so please, by all means, don't bother yourself further. I think we're all pretty clear on your opinion of the codex at this point.

 kronk wrote:
Can you choose to take the warlord trait from either this book or the BRB, or must you take the warlord traits from this book if you play Chaos Space Marines?

You get to choose.

 Skriker wrote:

vonevilstein wrote:
I second that! You put that brilliantly Erronius. It's patently clear you are a long time chaos player and with that comes real understanding of the codex rather than another faction player who has merely just read the codex. Cheers mate.

I feel the Zerker rage. It's like GW lied to me as a boy...;-P. "These are the chosen of Khorne, the god of war, blood and skulls". Really? That's his chosen? I'll go with the god of beer thanks.....

I am a long time chaos player and started my collection about 25 years ago. Erronius' post misses one important aspect of things: This is exactly how GW does business and has done business since back then. Not a single chaos codex that has come out has done so without a lot of hoopla and complaining about people's wants not being met. Anyone who has been a long time chaos player, heck GW game player period, should know that as a fact and by now be able to accept it and move on and not start crying every time a new version of their favorite book comes out and isn't exactly what they wanted it to be. GW makes the lists they want to make, not that their customers want them to make. They are never going to make a list that pleases everyone. Such a list would be 500 pages long and unusuable because it would be full of so many special rules.

It helps when you play the game you focus on "playing the game" and not "playing the rules". Play the rules and every little change will ruin the game for you. Play the game and the rules are just what helps facilitate the action on the table.

Skriker

This summed up what I wanted to say better than I ever could.

vonevilstein wrote:

 Spartan089 wrote:
I wish I could Sig the entirety of what Erronius said....all disappointed chaos players should exalt his post, let our anguish be heard!

I second that! You put that brilliantly Erronius. It's patently clear you are a long time chaos player and with that comes real understanding of the codex rather than another faction player who has merely just read the codex. Cheers mate.

I feel the Zerker rage. It's like GW lied to me as a boy...;-P. "These are the chosen of Khorne, the god of war, blood and skulls". Really? That's his chosen? I'll go with the god of beer thanks.....

Sorry, but do you mind insulting me some more? I haven't reached my daily quota yet.


Not minding the sillyness, I dare say that my opinion is as valid as anyone's, considering how my best mate plays Chaos.

 Skriker wrote:

vonevilstein wrote:

Not a single chaos codex that has come out has done so without a lot of hoopla and complaining about people's wants not being met.

Funny. Never got the "hoopla" with SW or GK. Wonder why that was?

 Skriker wrote:

Oh and jump pack troops isn't "sensible" it fits in the over powered category in my book. , but called something different, how awful! You can get the dreadtalon drop pod rules from Forge World, which are not limited to Apocalypse games. What new troop carrier should they have? Daemon princes cost changed, still useful. Noise marine weapons changed, still useful. Obliterators changed, but still useful. Defiler more expensive and also has a bunch of new special features that you ignore. Should it have gotten the upgrades and gotten cheaper? Silly flyer? In your opinion. Also still have the hellblade available from Forge world which works just fine. So abaddon to take the elite of the elite as troops? Oh my how positively ruinous for chaos lists.
Your last line shows us what your real problem with the book is: Not the uber-codex you expected/hoped for.
Skriker

OK where to begin. Let's start with a choice few:-
"Oh and jump pack troops isn't "sensible" it fits in the over powered category in my book". So then you would agree that outflanking troops for SW are OP aswell?
"What new troop carrier should they have?" Oh I don't know, maybe an assault transport for the cult assault assault troops(half of the cult troop choice) that doesn't cost 230pts? When a rhino goes up watch with glee while you wait 2 turns to attack with your bolt pistol wielding Zerks.
"Daemon princes cost changed, still useful". Indeed they are still useful. So is a bloodthirster but would you spend 17% of your 1500 army on something that brittle?
"Noise marine weapons changed, still useful" The weapons are useful. Just not on Noise Marines. They did have an assault weapon for assault troops. Still there's always the trusty bolt pistol. Super firepower for small squads.
"Defiler more expensive and also has a bunch of new special features that you ignore". My personal favourite. They became relatively useless in 6th anyway thanks to the battle cannon rule. What do they do? They made more expensive just to remind you how many points you are wasting when you use your lovely daemonforge rule on just one weapon. Ah but silly me! Just don't fire the battlecannon!
"Silly flyer? In your opinion". An anti-flyer flyer that has no more manauevrability than it's target sounds pretty silly to me. Weeeee! Let's fly around in pretty £45 cirlces! I do think the baleflamer rocks though. We can agree on that.

"Your last line shows us what your real problem with the book is: Not the uber-codex you expected/hoped for. "

Actually I think he just wanted a list comparable in competitiveness to SW and GK.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Sorry, but do you mind insulting me some more? I haven't reached my daily quota yet.

Good grief man. I'm not insulting anyone and definitely not you in particular. I apologise, the comment obviously came across not as intended. I was attempting to refer to various GK/SW trolls (before GK/SW players start - I don't mean you all!) on many other forums and not specifically this one, that claim that the new chaos codex is uber and if chaos players can't win with it they must be crap so stop whining kind of thing

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not minding the sillyness, I dare say that my opinion is as valid as anyone's, considering how my best mate plays Chaos.

My SW mate is laughing at me. He likes the figures though. So do I


Going back to the codex, I'll reiterate what others have said. It is *not* a bad codex. I will have fun playing it (which is the main thing). It's just that GW have released a new codex that is not as efficient as other codices available. If they feel those others are overpowered then they should do something about them and not sub-par others. Level the playing field for tournaments is all I ask.

Ok...i am seeing alot of peopel angry about this codex. Personally i dont get but i'm willing to be convinced.

Defilers - yes they are more expensive but with a 5++ and a 5+ to recover Hull Points aren't they now more survivable? Plus they can now fire the battlecannon and shoot the reaper (although they must be snap-shots).

Obliterators - bad? Didn't they just get 5 points cheaper and gain an Assault Cannon? they are still 2+/5++ thanks to Daemon. Apart from a drop in Ld they are the same - better even!

Marines - yes they lost their "secret" 2 attacks base....so now they are in-line with a "normal" space marine....except that we can get that attack back for free by dropping the boltgun...or keep it and pay 2 points...whci puts them at the same points level they were before anyway.



adittedly i've not been able to play a game with the new codex yet. I'm hoping to hve a quick 1k game next week, work allowing. I've stacked it with 2 Defilers as they are the only Daemon engines i have and want to test them out. I'm thikign that them strollign up the table, with a Warpsmith sheltered behind for added hell-point-regeneration could be good.

 Spartan089 wrote:
Again naming things to use to supplement the codex especially forge world shows that you don't get the point. First forge world is not widely available nor does everyone allow in the first place even for casual games let alone tournaments. Codexs like GK, Crons, SW, BA, and IG can all make competitive and fluffy lists. They are perfect standalone books, that don't even need allies or FW. The chaos codex should be able to stand on its own, which it does not.

It does just fine. Just because people want certain things doesn't mean they should be included. Just because someone thinks the new chaos flyer looks stupid doesn't change the fact that it exists and has workable rules, etc. I offer the chaos flyer from FW as an alternative model since they complained about the released one. Use the model and the codex rules and it doesn't matter if it is a forge world model. It isn't a fault of the codex or its rules that someone is whining about how a model looks now is it? Forge world is as readily available to everyone who has an internet connection and if they are posting here they definitely have full access to Forge world's online store.

I'm personally happy that the CSM didn't continue the stupid power creep for power creep's sake progression of other recent books. This book *is* interesting. It will be competitive and the nitpicky little complaints people keep throwing around are exactly that. How many people liked the new IG book when it came out? Few. It *ruined* the guard, was completely useless and was reason to rage quit. Now it is seen as one of the more competitive lists out there. Instead of complaining about what is not included that was on someone's wish list, why not look at what is there and how to use it effectively on the table top instead? My armies be able to be pretty much the same as always *and* I get to add some interesting new models into the mix as well. Both big wins in my book.

Skriker

I'm liking most of the new codex. i think i prefer the Maulerfiend to the Forgefiend tbh.

The heldrake rules? - yes. model? No. I'll be using a FW Helblade instead.

i'm also not too keen on the Warpsmith model. dont get me wrong, it looks great. But all those thin tenacles are going to snap so easily! I'm tryign to source an action figure or some kids plastic toy i can rip apart and use bits to convert my current metal Warsmith model.

i'm thinking some sort of "Doc OCk" figure woudl work best, but not sure if there are any out there small enough.

Again, Praxiss, please stop stealing my thoughts, it's getting to the stage where I'm assuming you're just an older clone of myself who has somehow teleported to England.

(Translation: I also will be using the Hell Blade model with Heldrake rules, explaining the Vector Strike as being barbed grapnels that fire from the underside to wreck the enemy's face, and I will also be using my metal Warsmith model, AND I prefer the Maulerfiend to the Forgefiend)

I think the Heldrake model is pretty awesome if you're willing to spend some time to properly Chaos the thing up. Now, do I think you should have to do that on a kit that's already 74USD? Hell no. But I think the possibility for a sweet conversion is there.

I've also thought about buying one and trying to carefully split the kit into two halves. Join the half kits with brass rod and make two Heldrakes... call 'em Mike and Ike, Frick and Frack... something stupid like that. That's also potentially a great way to end up with $74 of rubble.