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Since 6th edition began I have had significant trouble taking on my house-mate's Tyranid force, I have tried multiple methods of dealing with them
but I have found nothing which has been able to deal with his combination that he runs

Flyrant 2xTL devourers

Trygon Prime

In bigger games he will often run a second 2+ save tyrant with TL devourers plus a guard and give the Trygon toxin sacs.
He always rolls on the biomancy discipline for the tyrants (hoping to get iron arm). After having a look through the archives and coming up short, I ask dakka. What can I do to stand up to the big beasties of the swarm?

Of the top of my head, BT's are well equipped to handle MC threats in CC. You can have both HQ's equipped from the armory.

Your main MC hunter should probably be the Chaplin. Give him Terminator honors, Admantine Cloak to go with the Power Maul (Crozius) and Rosarious (4++). This gives you an S6 A4 W3 unit that does not get ID and a decent save against ap2 attacks that re-rolls on the assault for 160 points. That is 40 point less, and only giving up 2 attacks, 2 wounds and Swings first.

Remember the big weakness of an FMC. When it is swooping you don't have to wound it just hit to force a grounding test. The Grounding will be one wound and you can assault the remaining 3 off it.

Your troop slots can dish out enough fire power to drop MC's pretty easy being able to take a Plasma Gun and a Plasma cannon in 5 man squads.

But the most important thing to remember is that in 5 out 6 missions all you got to do is kill gribbles.

Plasma for big bugs is nice ignoring armor. But if he is going iron arm, you might have to disrupt his pychic powers, i like rune priest for this roll, give them termie armor and let them wade and kill bugs with Jaws lols.
My buddy had 3 of his carnifex's die in 2 round from one runepriest from jaws lols.. sick

barnowl wrote:
Of the top of my head, BT's are well equipped to handle MC threats in CC. You can have both HQ's equipped from the armory.

Your main MC hunter should probably be the Chaplin. Give him Terminator honors, Admantine Cloak to go with the Power Maul (Crozius) and Rosarious (4++). This gives you an S6 A4 W3 unit that does not get ID and a decent save against ap2 attacks that re-rolls on the assault for 160 points. That is 40 point less, and only giving up 2 attacks, 2 wounds and Swings first.

Remember the big weakness of an FMC. When it is swooping you don't have to wound it just hit to force a grounding test. The Grounding will be one wound and you can assault the remaining 3 off it.

Your troop slots can dish out enough fire power to drop MC's pretty easy being able to take a Plasma Gun and a Plasma cannon in 5 man squads.

But the most important thing to remember is that in 5 out 6 missions all you got to do is kill gribbles.

You try to fight off Tyranid Monstrous creatures with a chaplin? I think you need more than that.. Most tyranid armies got a flying Hive (or two) that can remain 18 inch away and still shoot those devourers. The model still gains coversaves and most times it gets "endurance" from the tervigon's. If it gets "iron arm" than your screwed. You need cheap missle launchers to take down Tyranid MC's and a good counter assault unit, like Terminators with thunderhammers/SS or lightning claws with furious charge.

Plasma cannon cannot shoot at flying units and normal plasma lacks range and Strength. Flying Hive can also "precision shot" those plasmaguns,plasmacannons etc.

barnowl wrote:


Your main MC hunter should probably be the Chaplin.

God no. Adamantine Mantle, TH/SS Terminator Armour Marshal with a Terminator Command Squad to let you get more Elites. More Terminators in the Elites slots. CMLs or Assault Cannons, although if you want to shoot down FMCs get the Assault Cannons and drown it in Dakka. Techmarines work surprisingly well with some gear from the armoury too.


Also, don't take Plasma Cannons in troop squads if you want to shoot down FMCs. They can't hit flying thingies.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

barnowl wrote:


Your main MC hunter should probably be the Chaplin.

God no. Adamantine Mantle, TH/SS Terminator Armour Marshal with a Terminator Command Squad to let you get more Elites. More Terminators in the Elites slots. CMLs or Assault Cannons, although if you want to shoot down FMCs get the Assault Cannons and drown it in Dakka. Techmarines work surprisingly well with some gear from the armoury too.


Also, don't take Plasma Cannons in troop squads if you want to shoot down FMCs. They can't hit flying thingies.

This.

Might I suggest an Aegis Defence Line with quad-gun to help take down the flying MCs?

A termie-heavy army sounds like the way to go, termie Marshall TH/SS and mantle, termies dual ACs, termies dual CMLs, assault termies (hammers and claws, furious charge), and if you can fit it in, a termie chaplain.

Let the chitin bashing begin!

Yeah, I would go command squad with dual AC, Tank hunters, and maybe another termie squad with cycML. Then get some land speeders, Typhoon class. There cheap, and would help out. Try just shooting them down before they get to you. Also, aegis defense line is great. I think that would help out alot in your situation.

Here's a list suggestion (keep in mind that this is mainly for your big bug problem, I wouldn't recommend it in a tourny):

HQ:

EC, AACNMTH
Marshall, TDA, TH/SS, adamantium mantle
MoS, TDA, storm bolter

Elites:

Assault Termies (x6): 3 TH/SS, 3 LCs, furious charge
Termies: dual CMLs (no vet skills, since no vehicles to hit)
Termies: dual ACs (no vet skills, since no vehicles to hit)

Troops:

5 initiates, lascannon, PG
5 initiates, lascannon, PG
5 initiates, lascannon, PG
5 initiates, lascannon, PG
10 inititates, 8 neophytes, PF, meltagun, frags

Aegis Defence Line, quad-gun

Total: 2000pts on the dot

You can create a crazy castle with the 4 lascannon squads and the CML termies behind the ADL/quad-gun, and push forward with the assault termies/Marshal/MoS, the AC termies and the EC/initiates/neophytes blob

Use Righteous Zeal at your advantage to move forward (and pre-measure charge distances!!!), it is absolutely key to get the charge so that you can utilize Rage to its full extent (the initiates blob can potentially pump out 70 attacks on 1st turn!)

Going with CC teminators and ICs is not going to work as well as you think it is and Rage is almost a not issue for one reason.
Both the Flyrant and the Trygon Prime are both charaters composed of a unit of one. So there will definitly be challanges. That will reduce the number of attacks that you are getting. The next round FC and Rage go away and will really drop the number of attacks.

Also the assault terminators will hit the same issue, but on top of that there is the issue that the Flyrant just needs to stay @13" away from the assualt terminators or keep some difficult terrain between the terminators and himself. That will mean that even if he is grounded the chance of getting charged is minimal.

In short. More shooting. No powerfists. No charaters if you can help it. The ADL w/quad is good. The LC are good. PC are good against the Trigon Prime.

What is the rest of the Nid list. Your only showing @500pts in a 2K list. The above list phoenix darkus posted is good against Nidzilla, but against a horde list its going to have issues.

IC MC, as Gloom pointed out need IC's for assault do to challenges. Unless you are taking 2 marshals, I would not want to risk handing "Kill the warlord" to my opponent.

FMC's unlike Flyiers dont have to killed in the air. It just needs to be hit to trigger the grounding test. And anything can do that even a Tau markerlight. Once the Flyrant is grounded it is fair game Plasma Cannons. Plasma guns are not blast and work just fine on either grounded or Swooping FMC.

barnowl wrote:
IC MC, as Gloom pointed out need IC's for assault do to challenges. Unless you are taking 2 marshals, I would not want to risk handing "Kill the warlord" to my opponent.

FMC's unlike Flyiers dont have to killed in the air. It just needs to be hit to trigger the grounding test. And anything can do that even a Tau markerlight. Once the Flyrant is grounded it is fair game Plasma Cannons. Plasma guns are not blast and work just fine on either grounded or Swooping FMC.

Right. Also I thought BT had some rule that they had to accept chalanges. Haven't playied them in 6th yet.

As for Plasma against the FMC, your right that it is fair game once it is grounded. The issue is that I am not seeing a lot of shooting that can casue the grounding test (Keeping in mind the coversaves the FMC gets).

Honestly just be glad your opponet is wasting the points on the FMC and not taking something that would really hurt BT.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

barnowl wrote:


Your main MC hunter should probably be the Chaplin.

God no. Adamantine Mantle, TH/SS Terminator Armour Marshal with a Terminator Command Squad to let you get more Elites. More Terminators in the Elites slots. CMLs or Assault Cannons, although if you want to shoot down FMCs get the Assault Cannons and drown it in Dakka. Techmarines work surprisingly well with some gear from the armoury too.


Also, don't take Plasma Cannons in troop squads if you want to shoot down FMCs. They can't hit flying thingies.

A BT Master of Sanctity (Chaplin) has the same stat line as the Marshal and is also an HQ so can get a Terminator Command Squad, and already has the power weapon and 4++ save for the same cost it will take to get the Marshall to that point. The Chaplin also has access to the same wargear, and it is probably not your Warlord, finally the Chaplin is a little better on the first round of an assault. I would rather the Power Maul (Croziac) strikes first. Not as strong or as good an AP, but I think hitting first (Tryon) or simo (tyrant) is better, so personal call there.

For shooting down FMC a basic bolter is good. All you got to do is ground it for the next squad to kill it.

Really, BT should not have any more trouble with nid's than vanilla Marines, probably less with big 'nids simply becuase they can take more heavy weapons in smaller squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

barnowl wrote:
IC MC, as Gloom pointed out need IC's for assault do to challenges. Unless you are taking 2 marshals, I would not want to risk handing "Kill the warlord" to my opponent.

FMC's unlike Flyiers dont have to killed in the air. It just needs to be hit to trigger the grounding test. And anything can do that even a Tau markerlight. Once the Flyrant is grounded it is fair game Plasma Cannons. Plasma guns are not blast and work just fine on either grounded or Swooping FMC.

Right. Also I thought BT had some rule that they had to accept chalanges. Haven't playied them in 6th yet.

As for Plasma against the FMC, your right that it is fair game once it is grounded. The issue is that I am not seeing a lot of shooting that can casue the grounding test (Keeping in mind the coversaves the FMC gets).

Honestly just be glad your opponet is wasting the points on the FMC and not taking something that would really hurt BT.

The Emperor's Champion has to accept and give challenges. Only problem is he is not well equipped for fighting MC's, 2 wounds but no way to stave off ID.

Mass Bolters and shotguns should be able to trip the grounding test. Heavy bolters or TDC with Assault cannons could help shot volume, or load up on neophytes with shot guns for relative cheap dakka.

we generally play 1750

here's the most recent list I can remember

Flyrant, 2x TL devourers-260

Tyrant, 2x TL devs, armoured shell 1 tyrant guard-300

Zoanthrope-60

2x Hiveguard-100

Deathleaper-140

23x Termagants-115

23x Termagants-115

20x Hormagaunts TS-160

20x Gargoyles adrenal glands, TS-160

3x Raveners-90

Trygon prime TS-250

Land Raider Crusaders. They're my personal favourite for Anti-Infantry firepower. I tend to use 10 Initiates and 4 Neophytes as they LRCs Payload. There isn't much low AP so you may have to concentrate on 1 MC at a time. And with the amount of TL weapons an LRC has, you're bound to either ground it or hurt it and ground it.

That Nid list would definitly give termis and Land Raiders problems. The gargoyles with TS looks off, they come with a version of TS automaticly (blinding venom). The one Zoan is odd too. Tyrants are missing OA... but I'm nothere too correct his list.
The main vulnerability I am seeing is to mass bolter/HB fire and template weapons. I'd take ML/flamers on your units . A few terminators with HF, CMl or AC as well. Quadgun ADL would be good as well.

he runs 1 zoan because thats all he has of them (he recently got another )

the TS on the gargoyles allow rerolls to wound on the charge when combined with AG

I'm not sure why he doesn't use OA with the tyrants though

would MSU with a template/ blast weapon/ H.bolter be good

I can get a heavy and special weapon in a 5 man unit

My point on the gargoyles is that alreqdy have a poison attack andyou didn't have AG listed so they would only get the reroll against T3. With AG it makes sense, but it gets expensive.

HB, template and ML are good on MSU. Don't use blast weapons as you can't snapshot or WoD with them.

I also would go with combi-flamers it you have them. Keep away from hidden PF as they don't work against his list that well (unless they are on noncharater models.

 macc92 wrote:
he runs 1 zoan because thats all he has of them (he recently got another )

the TS on the gargoyles allow rerolls to wound on the charge when combined with AG

I'm not sure why he doesn't use OA with the tyrants though

would MSU with a template/ blast weapon/ H.bolter be good

I can get a heavy and special weapon in a 5 man unit

I would try to help, but I don't play Terminator CML or Min/LC/PG builds so I'm not sure how to assist with your current style.

I think peoples suggestion of termies & HQs are in keeping with the BTs rabid, heavy handed hh approach to problems(and that's coming from a BA player). I would 2nd the motions to definetly have a TH/SS sqd. Beyond that id say lots of hvy wpns to soften them up & vehicles before finishing them with HQs & termies. Bugs traditionaly have trouble with armour.

How would running 5 TH/SS terminators in a land raider do as there's no character and the landraider can pop off wounds with the LC

I would try to help, but I don't play Terminator CML or Min/LC/PG builds so I'm not sure how to assist with your current style.

I dont run any Tactical terminators as I dont have any

It is possible for BT to hide PF due to our lack of sergeants

How succesful would a tri-las/auto las predator be?

 RedAngel wrote:
I think peoples suggestion of termies & HQs are in keeping with the BTs rabid, heavy handed hh approach to problems(and that's coming from a BA player). I would 2nd the motions to definetly have a TH/SS sqd. Beyond that id say lots of hvy wpns to soften them up & vehicles before finishing them with HQs & termies. Bugs traditionaly have trouble with armour.

That is 5th Ed. Thinking. Mech is now not really a problem for Nids. If you take a LR it will be dead by turn 2. A pred wouldn't make it past turn 2 either. The problem with BT is that they are an assault army, but Nids are just better at it then them.

Take the terminators. They will just get hit with one of those big gaunt units and just be tarpitted. No more no reteat wounds and fearless means you have to kill all of them. And he has a lot of them.

High volume of fire. Templates and if you can hide PFs then definitly take as many of them as you can. Have some AP3 or better shooting for the MCs.

 macc92 wrote:
How would running 5 TH/SS terminators in a land raider do as there's no character and the landraider can pop off wounds with the LC

I would try to help, but I don't play Terminator CML or Min/LC/PG builds so I'm not sure how to assist with your current style.

I dont run any Tactical terminators as I dont have any

It is possible for BT to hide PF due to our lack of sergeants

How succesful would a tri-las/auto las predator be?

Sorry saw the list in the thread, and thought you had posted it. The Power Fist use to be my go-to for Templars in 5th but I have found that the Axe does me just as well. I mainly use Meltas or other means to pop tanks, and the Power Axe's extra attack has proven to be much more useful in sustained combat (I can almost always ensure to get one wound through with 2A in CC, rather than 1A and hoping for it on a 50/50 shot). However the Fists I'm sure still work great, just my personal perspective. I tend to like our Holy Orbs when it comes to dealing with non-flying MC. Flying MC either need some Assault Cannons or anything TW. Flyers are obviously BT's huge weak point.

I can deal with the gaunts easily enough, its only the MCs that are giving me trouble

my main ideas of thought atm are

5 man squads with a heavy weapon (high rate of fire for gribblies, high S low Ap for MC)

TH/SS in a LRC Keeping away from the gaunts (blessed hull to stop lance effect?)

What should my Emperor's Champion do, should he and his unit go to town on a weakened gaunt unit or just keep him out of combat altogether?

Time for some hard questions:
Is he killing off your scoring units? If so what is he killing them with?
Are you killing all of his scoring units? If not why aren't you?
Are you getting your scoring units to the objectives?

These are the questions you have to answer in 6th. If you kill his scoring troops and get your scoring troops to the objectives you will win 5/6ths of all the games.

 Gloomfang wrote:
My point on the gargoyles is that alreqdy have a poison attack andyou didn't have AG listed so they would only get the reroll against T3. With AG it makes sense, but it gets expensive.

He has AG listed, and they have Blinding Venom which is nothing like Toxin Sacs. It's an auto-wound on a to-hit of a 6.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
My point on the gargoyles is that alreqdy have a poison attack andyou didn't have AG listed so they would only get the reroll against T3. With AG it makes sense, but it gets expensive.

He has AG listed, and they have Blinding Venom which is nothing like Toxin Sacs. It's an auto-wound on a to-hit of a 6.

I missed it because he spelled AG out, but used TS for toxin sacs. Reading and posting from my phone.

And I know how blinding venom works. Without AG taking TS makes little sense as you are spending the extra points just to wound on a 4 (as S3 wounds T4 on a 5+ and you wouldn't get a reroll to wound). With AG it makes more sense as you get the reroll against T4.

This may seem crazy but take a unit with:

5 TH/SS Termies
Techmarine
-Full Servo Harnass
-TH/SS
-Terminator Honors
-4 Combat Servitors
Land Raider Crusader

You get:
10 S8 AP 2 Attacks from the Termies(2AS/3+ inv)
4 S6 AP 2 Attacks from the Servitors(4+AS)
5 S8 AP 2 Attacks form the Techmarine(2AS/3+ inv)

If you take your Rage attacks also that adds up to putting a ton of heavy damage down on the enemy and with the techmarine in the LRC there is a much higher chance it will make it to the enemy's lines.