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Because to hit a Zooming flyer you need to snap shot(Or skyfire) as "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"

foolishmortal wrote:Tesla (additional hits from 6s)

Point of order: the Tesla special rule is associated with weapons which 'do' roll to hit and can be fired as a snap-shot and therefore are subject to the 'hard-to-hit' rule in the conventional sense (ie: requiring a 6 be rolled). There is no rules-valid reason to consider the extra hits as a seperate instance or weapon from the one which generated them.

Here is a thread in which i debated this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/476943.page

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because to hit a Zooming flyer you need to snap shot(Or skyfire) as "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"

So when a Zooming Ork Blitza-Bommer's uses the Skreamin' Descent rule and a 3 or 4 is rolled on 2D6, the Zogging 'eck! the hit on the Bommer is ignored?

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because to hit a Zooming flyer you need to snap shot(Or skyfire) as "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"

So when a Zooming Ork Blitza-Bommer's uses the Skreamin' Descent rule and a 3 or 4 is rolled on 2D6, the Zogging 'eck! the hit on the Bommer is ignored?

I do not know what the rules for Skreamin' Descent, so I can not accurately assess the rule.

Tjolle79 wrote:

So, the Rulebook FAQ overrules the Rulebook. It's still the rulebook, just updated by the FAQ.
So still its Codex>Rulebook.

Actually, the Rulebook FAQ can overrule any Codex. In this specific discussion, the Rulebook FAQ (ver 1.0a) states the Necron Zoom Scythe's Death Ray can't target Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Necron FAQ (ver 1.1) doesn't address this. So, if you don't agree the Rulebook FAQ can override a Codex, you would reopen the Death Ray being able to target these units, which we know is not the case.

This thread is an identical discussion to many threads on many forums about the Necron Zoom Scythe's Death ray: both are special abilities; both don't target units; Snap Shots don't apply to these attacks; the attacks requires LOS; units effected suffer hits. These are the same points made in this discussion. So why was the Necron's Zoom Scythe's Death Ray specifically included in the FAQ on targeting Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and LotS wasn't? Well, there are so many "any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them" that fall into these categories, the FAQ just listed a few: the Death Ray, Deathstrike missile and "Witchfire" psychic powers. Well the Rulebook FAQ does overrule the Necron Codex with the Necron Zoom Scythe's Death ray. I can include the LotS is in the same set of "attacks" that cannot target these units.

Brian2000 wrote:

Tjolle79 wrote:

So, the Rulebook FAQ overrules the Rulebook. It's still the rulebook, just updated by the FAQ.
So still its Codex>Rulebook.

Actually, the Rulebook FAQ can overrule any Codex. In this specific discussion, the Rulebook FAQ (ver 1.0a) states the Necron Zoom Scythe's Death Ray can't target Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures and the Necron FAQ (ver 1.1) doesn't address this. So, if you don't agree the Rulebook FAQ can override a Codex, you would reopen the Death Ray being able to target these units, which we know is not the case.

Necron FAQ page 4.

Q: Can a Doom Scythe’s death ray hit enemy Flyers and/or Flying
Monstrous Creatures? (p50)
A: The Death Ray can hit Flyers in Hover Mode (friendly or
enemy) and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures (friendly or
enemy). It cannot hit Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creatures.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Lots generates hits. Is that equivalent to LotS hitting zooming flyers?

As far as LotS "generating" hits, I would say the LotS rule sometimes causes hits to be suffered. Personally, I am ok with calling that generating hits, yes. It's just that most things that "generate hits" do so with other rules. Space marines generate hits in the shooting phase by using the rules for shooting and making shooting attacks.

LotS does not use the shooting rules. It is a rule in and of itself that generates hits, more like an exploding transport generates hits on the embarked unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If Yes:
Then Lots can not hit as it does not make snap shots.

To this, I would ask why? I think we have both made our arguments as to the applicability of the faq entry on weapons hitting flyers without rolling to hit.

At this time, I don't have any new points to bring up on the faq entry applicability issue.

I would mention that whatever readers here choose to decide, please also consider if your answer also would apply to...

Njal
Ether Crystal
Ork Blitz Bommer
Tesla, Arc
Tesla (additional hits from 6s)

Add in the hits the Dark Eldar jetbikes do the hits of units they move over.

-Matt

You still can't apply the FAQ reply about shooting attacks and PSAs since these different kinds of attacks aren't either.

If you check the FAQ, you have a page reference to which rule this question is about. Page 13. On page 13 you have the rules for Snap Shots.

The question thus, is to cover all those weapons and attacks that have an unconventional way of being resolved in regards to being able to make Snap Shots or not.

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. "

Now, in order for my shooting attack to be able to hit i have to:

Be able to target the Flyer in question.

Now can i target the flyer? The rule says that it can't. since it can't be fired as a Snap Shot. If i can't Snap Shot the weapon, i can't target the flyer.

Since i can't target the flyer i can't hit it, which is what the FAQ rule states, correct?

Now, LotS (and similar special non-shooting attacks) don't follow the shooting rules for targetting and being able to Snap Shot because, put simply, they are not Shooting attacks. You can not by your own choosing apply rules and restrictions for Shooting attacks to non-shooting attacks.

I don't have to target the flyer, it is simply hit.

As has been said numerous times before there is no need to define the unit you want to hit as a "target". Death Ray is a perfect example for that.

The actual ruling of the faq is this: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Everything after that is based on that simple sentence.

So you want to hit a flyer? It must be from something that can be fired as a snap shot. That's it.

copper.talos wrote:
As has been said numerous times before there is no need to define the unit you want to hit as a "target". Death Ray is a perfect example for that.

The actual ruling of the faq is this: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Everything after that is based on that simple sentence.

So you want to hit a flyer? It must be from something that can be fired as a snap shot. That's it.

As far as Shooting attacks and PSAs are concerned yes, and noone is arguing this.

As this isnt either of those things, the FAQ reply doesnt apply, because all it really does is explain how the Snap Shot rule on pg 13 works with regards to unconventional shooting attacks and weapons.

It doesn't need to. The only permission to hit flyers that exists in the ruleset is granted to snap shots. Nothing else has such a specific permission.

If using the strictest RAW you argue that an ability that can damage a unit is not an attack, then I can argue that in the strictest RAW that ability cannot possibly ever score a pen/glance on a vehicle.

copper.talos wrote:
It doesn't need to. The only permission to hit flyers that exists in the ruleset is granted to snap shots. Nothing else has such a specific permission.

If using the strictest RAW you argue that an ability that can damage a unit is not an attack, then I can argue that in the strictest RAW that ability cannot possibly ever score a pen/glance on a vehicle.

Not really. The "hard to hit" rules puts restrictions on shooting attacks vs flyers. The "Assaulting Zooming Flyers" rule puts restrictions on Assaulting a flyer. The FAQ answer clears up how the Snap Shot rule works with regards to unconventional shooting attacks because that is what the FAQ Question is about (hence the page reference to Snap Shots, nothing else).

As for saying that i am "arguing that an ability that can damage a unit is not an attack" I AM NOT. It is NOT, however, a shooting attack. It's a special attack, a non-shooting attack, that doesn't follow ANY shooting rules. It requires a special FAQ reply, just because it doesn't fall under the FAQ ruling for unconventional shooting weapons ability to fire Snap Shots or not.

As for it having to be a "weapon" to be able to make a penetration roll this isnt true either, because saying that is reading into too much of the wording of the word "weapon".

If you instead read under assaulting vehicles it says:

"Armour Penetration is worked out in the same way as for shooting (D6 + the Strength of the attacker)." It is pretty clear to me how hits vs vehicles are resolved, no matter their source.

With that i'm done with this conversation.

So there are 2 rules for the pen roll. Weapon Str+D6 or Attacker Str+D6. As you said the lightning is not any of these 2 things so you cannot have a penetration roll. So if you argue in strict RAW, you cannot penetrate any vehicles AT ALL.

copper.talos wrote:
So there are 2 rules for the pen roll. Weapon Str+D6 or Attacker Str+D6. As you said the lightning is not any of these 2 things so you cannot have a penetration roll. So if you argue in strict RAW, you cannot penetrate any vehicles AT ALL.

Actually that's not what he said. He said its not a shooting attack or a weapon, but that it is a special attack, a non-shooting attack - meaning it would fit the bolded requirement.

The penetration roll is defined on assault and on shooting attacks. These are 2 different cases. So no it wouldn't fit at all because LotS is definetely not an assault attack. You have only Str 8 AP 2 hits. It's very close to a shooting attack, but the penetration roll for shooting attacks requires Weapon Strength. So either you handle it as an attack and follow the faq that says that any attack other than snap shots cannot hit a flyer, or argue that is an attack unlike any other, so it doesn't qualify for the penetration rolls too.

Reminder: Arguing like this is a very bad attitude and I never bring it to the table unless the opponent tries to rulelawyer me to death. Thank god most people I play are very very reasonable and such cases never come up.

Let me summarize what I am hearing...

I want to spam 100+ point flyers and I am worried about an @ 200 point character that can affect my flyers on a 1 in 6 chance but this is not a purpose built anti-flyer. I want immunity.

I think it is an ability and can affect a flyer with the same chance that any snap shot can. Live with it.

copper.talos wrote:
It doesn't need to. The only permission to hit flyers that exists in the ruleset is granted to snap shots. Nothing else has such a specific permission.

This is simply not true.

read Vector Strike on p43. Then look at the faq entry for it

Q: Can a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature make a Vector
Strike against a Zooming Flyer? (p49)
A: Yes.

What he meant to say was 'Almost nothing else has such a specific permission.'

but copper is correct.

"Either you handle it as an attack and follow the faq that says that any attack other than snap shots cannot hit a flyer"

Or:

"[it] is an attack unlike any other, so it doesn't qualify for the penetration rolls too."

Either way you do nothing to flyers.

 DeathReaper wrote:
What he meant to say was 'Almost nothing else has such a specific permission.'

but copper is correct.

"Either you handle it as an attack and follow the faq that says that any attack other than snap shots cannot hit a flyer"

Or:

"[it] is an attack unlike any other, so it doesn't qualify for the penetration rolls too."

Either way you do nothing to flyers.

Then let me ask you a question about how you would play it.

Do you allow a vehicle Ram to add D6 to its armor pen rolls? How about a Vector Strike? How about a Sweep Attack?

If yes to these, but no to LotS, why are you being selective in how strictly you are applying RAW?

foolishmortal wrote:
Then let me ask you a question about how you would play it.

Do you allow a vehicle Ram to add D6 to its armor pen rolls? How about a Vector Strike? How about a Sweep Attack?

Yes to all of these.

If yes to these, but no to LotS, why are you being selective in how strictly you are applying RAW?

If my opponent argued that the Lightning hits Flyers without the need to Snap Fire or being given specific permission to be able to hit Flyers, then I'm not going to allow the strength to be added as it is not a cc attack nor is it a weapon. Icalso would not allow any of these other things to work.

foolishmortal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What he meant to say was 'Almost nothing else has such a specific permission.'

but copper is correct.

"Either you handle it as an attack and follow the faq that says that any attack other than snap shots cannot hit a flyer"

Or:

"[it] is an attack unlike any other, so it doesn't qualify for the penetration rolls too."

Either way you do nothing to flyers.

Then let me ask you a question about how you would play it.

Do you allow a vehicle Ram to add D6 to its armor pen rolls? How about a Vector Strike? How about a Sweep Attack?

If yes to these, but no to LotS, why are you being selective in how strictly you are applying RAW?

I am not being selective in the slightest.

If the opponent insists that the Lightning can hit a flyer without making a snap shot then No, I do not let anyone add a D6 to armor pen rolls et al.

Then they realize that the Lightning, like ram and the others must be an attack, and as such can not hit flyers without making snap shots.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I am not being selective in the slightest.

If the opponent insists that the Lightning can hit a flyer without making a snap shot then No, I do not let anyone add a D6 to armor pen rolls et al.

Then they realize that the Lightning, like ram and the others must be an attack, and as such can not hit flyers without making snap shots.

Of course LotS can hit a flyer without making a snap shot. LotS is not a shooting attack.

p13 (Snap Shots) - "under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots"
Models fire Snap Shots, they do so rather than shooting normally. (For shooting normally, look at pages 12, 69 and 71)

Read the Snap Shot rules on p13. They modify shooting attacks. The last sentence in the snap shot rules notes that shooting attacks that do not use a BS to hit cannot be fired as a Snap Shot.

Look at the faq entry. It's a clarification of the Snap Shot rules found on p13. It answers how a "weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers"

Why does it say weapon? Because that's how normal shooting works. p12 - "a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks"

Why do we even reference Snap Shots when talking about Flyers? Because of the Hard to Hit rule on p81. "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

I don't think we should respond to people whom we disagree with in a rules discussion by twisting a different rule to make a point. That seems ... oddly uncharitable. While the temptation to roll up a codex and smack your opponent with it like a naughty puppy is often present, and sometimes quite strong, we must resist.

You go back and forth from faq to HtH rule. The HtH rule had many grey areas and that's why there is a faq on this. The HtH and the faq are one and the same ruleswise. And the faq is clear, only snap shots.

And what about Vector Strike? The nominated unit for a vector strike "may even be an enemy flyer" (straight from the BRB). I see a specific permission to affect flyers (that had to be faqed to Zooming Flyers). Does LotS have a "may even be an enemy flyer" provision to what units it can hit?

But LotS was written if 5th, where the flyer type didn't exist.

copper.talos wrote:
You go back and forth from faq to HtH rule. The HtH rule had many grey areas and that's why there is a faq on this. The HtH and the faq are one and the same ruleswise. And the faq is clear, only snap shots.

The HtH is clear enough to me. "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

As I just said, the faq entry (that you say is clear) is an entry on Snap Shots. Snap Shots are made with shooting attacks. What evidence do you have that LotS "generates" shooting attacks?

copper.talos wrote:
And what about Vector Strike? The nominated unit for a vector strike "may even be an enemy flyer" (straight from the BRB). I see a specific permission to affect flyers (that had to be faqed to Zooming Flyers). Does LotS have a "may even be an enemy flyer" provision to what units it can hit?

Yes, a specific permission to affect flyers. Not zooming flyers. I ignored (for the most part) previous arguments on this matter of specific vs general because of the Vector Strike ruling. I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I will.

If (big if) your interpretation of the "weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers" faq entry is correct, and hits may not in any way be applied to flyers without some specific exemption in the rule, the MCs cannot hit Zooming Flyers with Vector Strike.

Vector Strike says it can hit flyers. Your interpretation of the faq says it can't hit Zooming flyers. Zooming Flyers is more specific that Flyers.

Does LotS even have a provision to affect flyers? No. VC has and it got faqed to zooming flyers. If LotS had such a provision to affect flyers in general I would very easily accept that it should affect zooming flyers too.

Regarding the HtH rule, again rule and faq are one and the same. You can't argue about HtH without using the faq. Faq says only snap shots can hit flyers and any other attacks cannot affect them. So it covers any attack that doesn't have a specific permission. LotS has no such thing. And if you go down the strict-raw path that LotS is an attack unlike any other, say good bye to the penetration rolls in general.

@smUrfsrUs That's why there are faqs and erratas.

copper.talos wrote:Regarding the HtH rule, again rule and faq are one and the same. You can't argue about HtH without using the faq. Faq says only snap shots can hit flyers and any other attacks cannot affect them. So it covers any attack that doesn't have a specific permission. LotS has no such thing. And if you go down the strict-raw path that LotS is an attack unlike any other, say good bye to the penetration rolls in general.

You understand that the faq entry you are citing is for Snap Shots on p13 right? Not HtH on p81?

If you are reading faqs so superficially then I don't think you'll ever get it. The faq is about what can hit zooming flyers & swooping mcs. Guess what rule those 2 things have in common regarding that.

copper.talos wrote:
If you are reading faqs so superficially then I don't think you'll ever get it. The faq is about what can hit zooming flyers & swooping mcs. Guess what rule those 2 things have in common regarding that.

I don't think it's a matter of me reading superficially. I don't think that is what I am doing.
I'm not sure how my noticing and mentioning that it is a clarification of rules on p13, not p81 is superficial.

Here is why it matters in this rules discussion.

1) The "any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers" faq entry further explains how Snap Shots work. (p13)

2) We only need to look at how Snap Shots work in relation to Zooming Flyers because of the Hard to Hit rule (p81) "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots"

3) The HtH rule defines the circumstances under which the Snap Shot rule is called for - shooting attacks.

4)LotS is not a shooting attack.

Responding to an earlier post of mine, you said "You go back and forth from faq to HtH rule". I wasn't going back and forth, but I can see how you might think I was if you thought the faq entry was about p81 instead of p13. I was making a step- by-step, straight-line argument for why LotS is not a shooting attack.

Maybe read it again in this new light. If you still disagree, tell me which part you think is wrong. Maybe I am wrong and you can show me why.

foolishmortal wrote:
4)LotS is not a shooting attack.

Since this is true.

Rule Book FAQ wrote:A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"

And this is true.

Then this conclusion is true:

You can not affect a Zooming flyer with the LotS rule, since the LotS rule is not a shooting attack, and therefore can not make snap shots, which is the only thing that can hit a Zooming Flyer (without other specific permission (reference Vector Strike)).

 DeathReaper wrote:

foolishmortal wrote:
4)LotS is not a shooting attack.

Since this is true.

Rule Book FAQ wrote:A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers"

And this is true.

Then this conclusion is true:

You can not affect a Zooming flyer with the LotS rule, since the LotS rule is not a shooting attack, and therefore can not make snap shots, which is the only thing that can hit a Zooming Flyer without other specific permission (reference Vector Strike).

Fixed that for you.