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That's fine for the TO, but that's not a Snap Fire to-hit roll, so can't be equated - it's a house rule.

Aycee71 wrote:
I just skimmed this post but here is what happened to me. I was in a tournament a couple of weeks back and the TO there resolved that Imotekh's Lightning could hit fliers because they needed a '6' to 'hit'. They equated the lightning strike to Snap Fire because they both needed 6's.

Aycee

Well the LoTS rule does not have a 'to hit' roll, so I do not know what that TO was thinking.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Here's another thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/481504.page in which we're trying to figuer out how to resolve hits from a vehicle explosion. There are similar issues because the rulebook does not specify how to resolve wounding because it doesn't define it as a shooting/close combat/psychic attack. It's none of them, similar to imotehk's rule.

I took a look at that other thread, and I agree with the posters that said to allocate the wounds closest to the explosion, and if there are multiple models the same distance you'd have to randomize.

I don't think there are many (if any) similarities here. Whether a vehicle exploding is a shooting attack, a CC attack, or a special rule that causes hits is totally irrelevant to a Swooping FMC or Zooming Flyer. If it isn't a Snap Shot or have specific permission to hit flyers it cannot hit. With the vehicle you roll distance and the hits are automatically assigned to the models in range, the FAQ clearly states that things that hit automatically can't hit flyers that are swooping or zooming.

Or you could assume that it can hit flyers because there isn't any rules that say it cannot.

jegsar wrote:
Or you could assume that it can hit flyers because there isn't any rules that say it cannot.

That is not how a permissive rule set works.

It has to say you can, otherwise you can not.

jegsar wrote:
Or you could assume that it can hit flyers because there isn't any rules that say it cannot.

You have that backwards. The rules have to say you are allowed to do something, not say you cannot.

The rules do say that you can hit them, specifically the special rules that generate the hits.

What some people question is whether or not the rules also say these special rules hits fall under the same category as those denied by the faq entry on Snap Shots.

foolishmortal wrote:
The rules do say that you can hit them, specifically the special rules that generate the hits.

What some people question is whether or not the rules also say these special rules hits fall under the same category as those denied by the faq entry on Snap Shots.

Except the FaQ over-rules that.

As I said, some people question whether or not the faq entry over-rules the special rule, and some do not.

Given the examples, like the Death ray, and the Mawlocks Terror from the deep that can't hit, it should be clear that nothing similar to those rules can hit without specific permission.

The difference is the Death Ray is a weapon that dosent roll to hit and the Terror From the Deep is a blast template.

Imotekhs lightning attack is never described as a weapon, or shooting attack, or blast template. Its within the wording of the hard to hit special rule.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
The difference is the Death Ray is a weapon that dosent roll to hit and the Terror From the Deep is a blast template.

TfTD isn't a weapon, however, which is what Hard to Hit restricted. It's awesome that this keeps getting ignored like it means nothing - it doesn't.

It is a blast template which is specifically disallowed. The item itself is not allowed. I could have the old witch hunters orbital bombardment unit and even though its not a "Weapon" and is a unit instead, it still misses because of the nature of the attack itself.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It is a blast template which is specifically disallowed. The item itself is not allowed. I could have the old witch hunters orbital bombardment unit and even though its not a "Weapon" and is a unit instead, it still misses because of the nature of the attack itself.

Incorrect. Read the Hard to Hit rule please. Blast weapons are forbidden.

Then I dont know what to tell you Rigeld. We could have the living metal circumstance where unless the ability is specifically FAQ'd not to work, it will work. Hard to hit makes no mention of Special Abilities not working, the fact that one special ability in an army that has already taken an ungodly number of hits from 6th is being FAQ'd not to work does not mean all others dont work. They are different in both nature in function and as it is, there is no RAW preventing them from hitting a flyer as they arent a weapon.

We have an example of a special ability that doesn't require a to-hit roll being FAQed not to work, and we have an example of a special ability that doesn't require a to-hit roll being FAQed to work. In this instance, it would be better to go with the idea that unless it's FAQed to work, a special ability that does not roll to-hit cannot work.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It is a blast template which is specifically disallowed. The item itself is not allowed. I could have the old witch hunters orbital bombardment unit and even though its not a "Weapon" and is a unit instead, it still misses because of the nature of the attack itself.

Incorrect. Read the Hard to Hit rule please. Blast weapons are forbidden.

Yes, the rulebook entry says 'weapon', but the FAQ uses 'attack', but as I've said already, I think the whole weapon / attack / special rule discussion is an irrelevant distraction for this issue. From FAQ entries it's pretty clear that GW is applying the Hard to Hit rule equally to all of them.

It does work and it hits side armour.

 Necron123 wrote:
It does work and it hits side armour.

I see your well reasoned, impeccably written argument for LotS hitting fliers and I shall respond in kind:

No it doesn't.

 undertow wrote:

 Necron123 wrote:
It does work and it hits side armour.

I see your well reasoned, impeccably written argument for LotS hitting fliers and I shall respond in kind:

No it doesn't.

I'll see you're argument and raise one .

 undertow wrote:
From FAQ entries it's pretty clear that GW is applying the Hard to Hit rule equally to all of them.

Cite a source please and then you've won this argument.

Probably the same FAQ that states "any attacks." and "any weapons". "Any" covers alot of ground. Add in to that every other examples of a "special ability" that avoided the "attack/weapon" wording was FAQ'd to be a NO.

But not this ability. Its that simple.

And by that resonign, not "Every" special ability, only the ones FAQ'd. If they didnt want special abilities to work then they should've FAQ'd it to say Attacks/Weapons/Special abilities.

Its really not. The assumption that GW picked this one ability to ignore all the other rules they laid out given all the other precedents and a FAQ that clearly states "Any" is silly. I was on the side of Blood Lance hitting fliers, and its pretty clear by how they phrased that FAQ it was meant as a catchall. "Only snapshots can hit ....." does not leave much wiggle room.

But nowhere are Special Rules as a whole referenced in the flyer rules or the FAQ.
Its not that hard to imagine from a fluff standpoint either as it has been stated before lightning hits aircraft all the time.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
But nowhere are Special Rules as a whole referenced in the flyer rules or the FAQ.
Its not that hard to imagine from a fluff standpoint either as it has been stated before lightning hits aircraft all the time.

And aircraft are "Invisible" to lightning. that is to say even modern day aircraft are not affected by the lightning strikes. (But Fluff is not rules).

as for the rules. "Only snap shots can hit Zooming Flyers..." Nothing else.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 undertow wrote:
From FAQ entries it's pretty clear that GW is applying the Hard to Hit rule equally to all of them.

Cite a source please and then you've won this argument.

The source is already cited. Please read the FAQs. Specifically the one for hard to hit in the BRB FAQ. If it hits automatically it cannot hit flyers. If it draws a line or uses any sort of blast marker or template it cannot hit flyers.

Some examples of weapons / attacks / special rules that don't work:
Mawloc's Terror from the Deep - Doesn't work because it uses a blast template.
CCB Sweeping attacks - Don't work because they hit automatically.
DE Jetbike sweeping attacks - Don't work because they hit automatically
Any beam attacks (Death Ray, JotWW) etc

Stuff that does work:
Vector Strike - Does work because although it auto hits, it is given specific permission to hit flyers.
Are there any others? I can't think of any right now.

Are you seeing the pattern yet? Next time, take a look at the FAQs before throwing out some lame 'citation needed' response.

 undertow wrote:

Some examples of weapons / attacks / special rules that don't work:
Mawloc's Terror from the Deep - Doesn't work because it uses a blast template.

Actually, this is incorrect. It doesn't work because the FAQ says it doesn't work. It doesn't give a reason, it just says, "No."
Also, it's a Large Blast Marker, not a blast template.

 undertow wrote:

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 undertow wrote:
From FAQ entries it's pretty clear that GW is applying the Hard to Hit rule equally to all of them.

Cite a source please and then you've won this argument.

The source is already cited. Please read the FAQs. Specifically the one for hard to hit in the BRB FAQ. If it hits automatically it cannot hit flyers. If it draws a line or uses any sort of blast marker or template it cannot hit flyers.

Some examples of weapons / attacks / special rules that don't work:
Mawloc's Terror from the Deep - Doesn't work because it uses a blast template.
CCB Sweeping attacks - Don't work because they hit automatically.
DE Jetbike sweeping attacks - Don't work because they hit automatically
Any beam attacks (Death Ray, JotWW) etc

Stuff that does work:
Vector Strike - Does work because although it auto hits, it is given specific permission to hit flyers.
Are there any others? I can't think of any right now.

Are you seeing the pattern yet? Next time, take a look at the FAQs before throwing out some lame 'citation needed' response.

CCB sweeps don't hit automatically. They hit on a set value that doesn't use WS to determine if you hit or not. And that was actually changed for ALL chariots, not just CCB's.

Also, regarding your "if it hits automatically it can't hit flyers" - Well, unless it's a snapshot that hits automatically then it still hits. *Shrug*

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
But nowhere are Special Rules as a whole referenced in the flyer rules or the FAQ.
Its not that hard to imagine from a fluff standpoint either as it has been stated before lightning hits aircraft all the time.

The Tyranid FAQ, p4:

Q: Are zooming flyers or swooping monstrous creatures affected by Mawloc's Terror from the Deep SPECIAL RULE (emphasis mine)?
A: No

Not that it specifically mentions that this is a special rule that doesn't work against flyers. That bolded part? That's how you can tell that you're wrong on this one.

BRB FAQ p6:

Can a character on a Chariot that is also a Skimmer make a Sweep Attack against a Zooming Flyer?
A: No

Expecting GW to add an entry to the FAQ for every ability is beyond silly. The patterns are clear, 'any' means ANY.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 undertow wrote:

Some examples of weapons / attacks / special rules that don't work:
Mawloc's Terror from the Deep - Doesn't work because it uses a blast template.

Actually, this is incorrect. It doesn't work because the FAQ says it doesn't work. It doesn't give a reason, it just says, "No."
Also, it's a Large Blast Marker, not a blast template.

Are you this pedantic in real life?

It's not a huge logical leap to assume that it doesn't work because it uses a blast marker.